When is it okay to kill another human being? - Page 5

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 02:28 PM

Ok but you can give guns as gifts, inherit them from dead family/friends, and you can rebuild them out of different parts. So every time you exchange something out will they need a serial number update? I mean how can you really prove that is the same gun you bought 9 years ago? I am about to replace the slides on one of my guns, and that is where the serial number is.

There is no good way to regulate the past guns. Also, the FBI and ATF do not keep track of gun sales, they just keep track of the number of background checks. If they had to keep track of sales they would have to have a whole lot more staff.

That is why they hold the FFL responsible and they will do random inspections to make sure you are legally selling guns.

There is never going to be a way to regulate private sales either. I mean no way to do it with out spying on people.

There are just too many what ifs, or things that if they get too over regulated are an infringement of our rights. Which I am against.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	Ok but you can give guns as gifts, inherit them from dead family/friends, and you can rebuild them out of different parts. So every time you exchange something out will they need a serial number update?

Gee, if only there were an example of some other potentially deadly piece of equipment that people already needed to register to own and use... something that might require some sort of license to operate, with rules regarding its sale and purchase... maybe even some sort of Verifiable Identification Number...

aehurst · 03-11-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	That is not a loop hole, they aren't getting around any crimes. That is an illegal sale. Anyone can always legally buy a gun and then go and sell it illegally, there is no way to regulate that. It is the same thing as people getting prescription drugs and then selling them by the pill. There is no way to ever stop or even regulate those types of illegal transactions. You got a link for this?

The link is http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assemb...lls/HB2184.pdf , but the legislature's web page is pretty much swamped during sessions. May have to wait to the evening.

You can go to http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us and click on "search bills" on the left column menu and track the status of any bill.... where it is in the process, amendments to the bill, when signed into law, etc.

hb1284 is the open carry bill, and hb1890 is the castle defense.

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	Gee, if only there were an example of some other potentially deadly piece of equipment that people already needed to register to own and use... something that might require some sort of license to operate, with rules regarding its sale and purchase... maybe even some sort of Verifiable Identification Number...

OK if you are such a genius where would you stamp it? Mind you that almost all guns can be stripped and parts can be removed and replaced. Even the VIN numbers on cars can be swapped.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	OK if you are such a genius where would you stamp it?

On every part. And on the barrel, I'd engrave it deep enough that filing it out will practically guarantee that it will blow up in your face.

No system is perfect, but it doesn't need to be perfect to dramatically reduce the problem we have now.

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	On every part. And on the barrel, I'd engrave it deep enough that filing it out will practically guarantee that it will blow up in your face. No system is perfect, but it doesn't need to be perfect to dramatically reduce the problem we have now.

So what happens when you put 5000 rounds through your gun and want to replace the barrel? Will you have to have it engraved with that matching stamp?

I get what you are saying. I think they should stop regulating guns as much and start pursuing people who break the law more. I think they need to hold people responsible for their actions and not try to blame guns.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	I think they need to hold people responsible for their actions and not try to blame guns.

That's the NRA talking. The reality is that we don't blame cars, but we do require them to be registered and we keep detailed records about who owns and sells them. It is more important to do that with guns than cars.

aehurst · 03-11-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	Because the gun lobby fights every single one of them so by the time they're enacted, they're so watered down that they're useless. It's why I can't support the NRA. They've proven that they're not on anyone's side but the gun maker's.

You mean like the assault weapon ban where nobody could define what an assault weapon was... at least not in a way that made any sense? Real assault weapons (as in fully automatic fire) have always been illegal.

I own 8 firearms. Not one of them is registered because they were all originally purchased before computers and accurate bookkeeping were required. The store where you bought them kept the records, and those stores are all out of business. Three of them are considered collector items now.... an old winchester .308 and two Belgian made Browning shotguns.

As my old Cajun friend used to say, "Everybody ought to have at least one cold piece."

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	That's the NRA talking. The reality is that we don't blame cars, but we do require them to be registered and we keep detailed records about who owns and sells them. It is more important to do that with guns than cars.

That is like saying cars drive drunk. People drive drunk. There needs to be accountability for what you do. I don't like people blaming cars or blaming guns, or anything else for their own personal actions. Everyone wants to blame something these days. If registered legally owned guns are used in less than 1% of violent crimes I think it is pointless to have a government agency or agencies regulating such things in a highly strict manner. I'd rather my tax dollars go towards education or research on something that may improve our lives.

Quote:


	You mean like the assault weapon ban where nobody could define what an assault weapon was... at least not in a way that made any sense? Real assault weapons (as in fully automatic fire) have always been illegal. I own 8 firearms. Not one of them is registered because they were all originally purchased before computers and accurate bookkeeping were required. The store where you bought them kept the records, and those stores are all out of business. Three of them are considered collector items now.... an old winchester .308 and two Belgian made Browning shotguns. As my old Cajun friend used to say, "Everybody ought to have at least one cold piece."

The brady bill people are a bunch of idiots. Here is what they did with the assault weapons ban. They banned the body style of a gun. If you take a semi auto hunting rifle, be it Remmington or Winchester or whomever, and compare it to a semi automatic military style rifle and you have the exact same technology under the hood. The same bolt carrier, extractor, gas tube, etc. I mean they are literally the same thing under the hood. The only difference is an AR15 has the black rifle evil look body style to it, while a Winchester may just look like a semi auto hunting rifle.

They can't define what an assault weapon is.

Actually, fully auto machine guns are completely legal, if you can afford your Class III firearms license and you can pass the extensive background checks, and if you can afford the massive taxes that go along with it. I don't know why you would, because you would spend even more money on ammo.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	That is like saying cars drive drunk.

No, it's saying that when you drive drunk and crash your car into somebody's house, we've got an easy way of identifying who did it. Your car is registered to you.

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	No, it's saying that when you drive drunk and crash your car into somebody's house, we've got an easy way of identifying who did it. Your car is registered to you.

Yeah but do you enjoy the DMV, is it ran well, is it worth your tax dollars? I hate my DMV with passion, once a year I have to spend 5 hours in one. Simply because they only take discover credit cards to renew them on line, and I don't use discover.

aehurst · 03-11-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	Actually, fully auto machine guns are completely legal, if you can afford your Class III firearms license and you can pass the extensive background checks, and if you can afford the massive taxes that go along with it. I don't know why you would, because you would spend even more money on ammo.

Cause they are really, really neat! Yeah, illegal was a poor choice of words... should have said highly regulated and cannot be purchased at the Sporting Goods store. Had a buddy buy a fully functional gun turret off a B-58 bomber at a base salvage sale, machine guns and all. He put it together in his back yard. Air Force eventually said oops and came after the machine guns.

Quote:


	Yeah but do you enjoy the DMV, is it ran well, is it worth your tax dollars? I hate my DMV with passion, once a year I have to spend 5 hours in one. Simply because they only take discover credit cards to renew them on line, and I don't use discover.

I hate DMV, too. There is only one reason to require everybody to have a license plate on their car and that is to collect taxes on it.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 08:05 PM

Hate it as much as you like. That doesn't mean it isn't necessary. Taxes are necessary too. When your activity costs the government money, you should pay that cost through taxes.

tlarkin · 03-11-2009, 09:10 PM

Sorry but until guns start getting up and pulling their own triggers then I think there needs to be some sort of action taken against them.

To government should be here to defend our rights, property, our pursuit of happiness, and provide the individual with as much non bias information as possible for the citizen can make the educated choice of what is best for them.

Gun control is about as effective as the war on drugs, or the war on terror. One giant waste of time, money and energy.

cwtnospam · 03-11-2009, 10:08 PM

So then you think that cars start themselves and crash into people? Or you think that registering guns is an act against guns, but registering cars is not an act against cars?

As for defending our rights, property, and pursuit of happiness, it seems obvious to me that keeping guns out of the hands of criminals would be an excellent start.

aehurst · 03-12-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	As for defending our rights, property, and pursuit of happiness, it seems obvious to me that keeping guns out of the hands of criminals would be an excellent start.

Agree, criminals shouldn't have guns. We should pass a law against criminals owning guns.

cwtnospam · 03-12-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aehurst


	Agree, criminals shouldn't have guns. We should pass a law against criminals owning guns.

What do you think registering guns is about? It's to ensure that people who can buy legally guns don't then sell them to people who can't legally buy them!

aehurst · 03-12-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	What do you think registering guns is about? It's to ensure that people who can buy legally guns don't then sell them to people who can't legally buy them!

Guess I am missing your point. Felons cannot legally own a gun, and a felon in possession of a gun is, in itself, a felony. Selling a gun to a felon is participating in an illegal act.

Apparently we are going to differ on how much crap the state should be allowed to put an honest citizen through and how much should the state infringe on an honest citizen's constitutional rights in the name of crime prevention.

mkoreiwo · 03-12-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aehurst


	Legislature run amok (this is just one example). Check out http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assemb...lls/HB1890.pdf , which has been introduced into our state house of representatives. The bill establishes the "Castle Defense" which will allow use of deadly force (immune from prosecution and civil suit) under various circumstances, including some where the individual's life is not in danger. Bill pretty much says you can kill a burglar in your home or on your property. Period. Some restrictions, of course, such as you cannot kill someone who has a right to be there (landlord for example) and you cannot kill a policewoman who has identified herself and/or you have reason to believe (or should have) she is the police. Anybody in this state can have firearms in the home (except convicted felons)..... and almost all do. What do you guys think? No more Mr. Nice Guy! (I should note similar legislation failed to be enacted last session. But, hey, shouldn't the law protect the good guys, too, and not the criminals?)

Well, I will say this, I think it unfortunate that people cannot defend their property for fear of going to jail. There are fine points to debate on the limits, but hey - I personally think we go too far with coddling criminals - violent criminals I should say.

tlarkin · 03-12-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	What do you think registering guns is about? It's to ensure that people who can buy legally guns don't then sell them to people who can't legally buy them!

In China they give the death penalty for drug possession. Drug possession still happens all the time in China. Those laws infringe on the rights of law abiding citizens. I take it you most likely don't own a gun. Legislation like that will just create more government, cost more tax dollars, and not be effective at all.

Interesting topic now that we had a few mass murders happen in the media now.

03-11-2009, 02:28 PM	#81
tlarkin League Commissioner Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 11,352	Ok but you can give guns as gifts, inherit them from dead family/friends, and you can rebuild them out of different parts. So every time you exchange something out will they need a serial number update? I mean how can you really prove that is the same gun you bought 9 years ago? I am about to replace the slides on one of my guns, and that is where the serial number is. There is no good way to regulate the past guns. Also, the FBI and ATF do not keep track of gun sales, they just keep track of the number of background checks. If they had to keep track of sales they would have to have a whole lot more staff. That is why they hold the FFL responsible and they will do random inspections to make sure you are legally selling guns. There is never going to be a way to regulate private sales either. I mean no way to do it with out spying on people. There are just too many what ifs, or things that if they get too over regulated are an infringement of our rights. Which I am against. __________________ sudo make me a sammich

03-11-2009, 09:10 PM	#94
tlarkin League Commissioner Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 11,352	Sorry but until guns start getting up and pulling their own triggers then I think there needs to be some sort of action taken against them. To government should be here to defend our rights, property, our pursuit of happiness, and provide the individual with as much non bias information as possible for the citizen can make the educated choice of what is best for them. Gun control is about as effective as the war on drugs, or the war on terror. One giant waste of time, money and energy. __________________ sudo make me a sammich

03-11-2009, 08:05 PM	#93
cwtnospam League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 8,475	Hate it as much as you like. That doesn't mean it isn't necessary. Taxes are necessary too. When your activity costs the government money, you should pay that cost through taxes.

03-11-2009, 10:08 PM	#95
cwtnospam League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 8,475	So then you think that cars start themselves and crash into people? Or you think that registering guns is an act against guns, but registering cars is not an act against cars? As for defending our rights, property, and pursuit of happiness, it seems obvious to me that keeping guns out of the hands of criminals would be an excellent start.