It's clear I know nothing about economics.

[eValuone]

It isn't as awful as it sounds...

Let's talk about value. Say some "unit of value."

What do we mean by that?

1) if I save it it will produce a rate of interest return,
2) if I own it it will generate a capital gain,
3) what else?

What do we mean by value?

Is an answer to that question 'economic?' Economics?

(I misspelled dissipative in prior entry.)

eValuone.

[NovaScotian]

Value is a very interesting, but muddy concept, largely because it is strongly contextual. When two folks argue about "value" then, if the argument is to be rational, they must first agree on the context of their evaluation. But to say that something has value does not imply that I have reduced it to its financial context -- I value my health, for example, but you don't; you value yours.

[tw]

Quote: Originally Posted by eValuone All, My point is more about how we think about economics (and other intellectual pursuits). For example, if we see a human body or a corporation as a machine...yet neither is a machine...rather as some have suggested...evolutionary entities with emergent properties. If we try to fix an emergent system using machine tools... Or if we try to fix a machine using emergent memes... Both in a sense are like looking at Earth as though its flat. Or totally stopped and not changing. Emergence depends upon two additional entropic notions: negative entropy (Schrodinger), and zero-integer entropies (bosonic reality). Positive entropy by itself is incapable of creation and its inverse (which Prigogine and Stengers showed, i.e., two positive entropy gradients one dissapative and other productive, latter essence of Schrodinger's "life itself"). If we are having trouble understanding economics, perhaps our problem is HOW we think about problems in reality. Thank you for your patience, eValuone.

You should read Adorno's 'Negative Dialectics' - I think you'd enjoy it.

the problem with entropy as a metaphor here is that while physical entropy is relatively straight-forward, biological entropy is complex. biological entities and collectivities have anabolic as well as metabolic characteristics - they burn energy (which is globally entropic) but they also organize substances into structures, which is locally anti-entropic. corporations are no different: they burn resources and create structures in the society and the world. the problem is that corporations often treat individuals as resources to be burned rather than benefactors of the structures.

[NovaScotian]

The last sentence is the key, tw.

[Woodsman]

Quote: Originally Posted by tw corporations are no different: they burn resources and create structures in the society and the world. the problem is that corporations often treat individuals as resources to be burned rather than benefactors of the structures.

It is strange how people seem to think that the replacement of "workers" by "employees" and finally by "Human Resources" is reassuring, cuddly, warm and fuzzy. If I am a worker, I work -- that's objective and neutral. If I am an employee, I am being employed to do something, that is, used. But employing a tool does not always destroy it; on the contrary, a good craftsman maintains his tools. (Viva Maslow!) If I am a Human Resource, however, I am made parallel to a mineral resource or a vegetable resource. That is, I am not only something to be used but something to be used up.

Moreover, if I am a "worker", then we can discuss for whom I work, and why, and for how much. Both "employee" and "human resource" exclude such questions: we do not ask our screwdriver or our oil how much they want, they are there to be employed or consumed.

We can say "Thou" to a worker, but can we say "Thou" to a resource?

[cwtnospam]

True, and who is more likely to have a Manager of Human Resources in stead of a hiring manager?

1. A Small business
2. A Corporation listed on a stock exchange

[eValuone]

This is incredible! Wow!

We are all working doing our own things and having fun (at least I am).

If we can say something like, "A human is a unit of Value," but without showing 'corporate' disrespect (for that individual human), would some of you agree to that? If not, invent language which makes a human 'Marxian' in a sense of having collective utility for good of all of us?

I am just attempting to give us a common 'measure' of what our local effort means, economically, by Value.

Say what?

eValuone.

PS - Your health does matter to ME! But I want you (and me) to be free to decide how you manage it as an individual.

[eValuone]

tw,

Just sent an email to order Adorno's 'Negative Dialectics'...

Tx,

eValuone.

[cwtnospam]

Quote: Originally Posted by eValuone PS - Your health does matter to ME! But I want you (and me) to be free to decide how you manage it as an individual.

Most health issues are self inflicted, so I don't see how letting individuals manage them is a good thing. All that does is inundate doctors with people wanting to talk to them about the latest drug to be advertised on TV. It's a bit like letting bank officers get billions in bonuses after running their companies into the ground.

[Woodsman]

There is a fun reader's letter in The Economist this week, from a guy in Kansas, saying that his locally-owned bank is conservative and avoids the "razzle-dazzle" of sophistication and computer modeling. Last year, he said, the CEO posted a notice on the website saying they had turned a "deaf ear" to "the siren song of the sub-prime mortgage market". Probably not getting a share of the pork either: perverse incentives.

[Woodsman]

Quote: Originally Posted by cwtnospam Most health issues are self inflicted, so I don't see how letting individuals manage them is a good thing.

So, CWT, if your physician should decide that all this sitting in front of the computer is bad for your eyes/wrists/shoulders/lower back, it's OK that he manages your posting schedule for you?

[cwtnospam]

Quote: Originally Posted by Woodsman So, CWT, if your physician should decide that all this sitting in front of the computer is bad for your eyes/wrists/shoulders/lower back, it's OK that he manages your posting schedule for you?

No, I don't think he should have that level of control. Like most things in life, this isn't an either/or situation. Doctors shouldn't be micromanaging us, but we shouldn't be making decisions about what they should be prescribing and then going to see them about getting it. It's a matter of balance, something that has also been missing in the economy. That's a bad thing in both.

[Woodsman]

Quote: Originally Posted by cwtnospam No, I don't think he should have that level of control. Like most things in life, this isn't an either/or situation. Doctors shouldn't be micromanaging us, but we shouldn't be making decisions about what they should be prescribing and then going to see them about getting it. It's a matter of balance, something that has also been missing in the economy. That's a bad thing in both.

I guessed that was what you meant, but couldn't resist a little ribbing. What I tend to do with doctors is ask they whether they think that test A or medication B is a good idea, and if they say, "no, because....", I accept it. I expect to be given reasons, and younger doctors are perfectly happy to treat me as an intelligent creature; also, it's in everyone's interest for me to maximise my medical knowledge. In return, I take their solemn word for things.

[aehurst]

Quote: Originally Posted by Woodsman .... younger doctors are perfectly happy to treat me as an intelligent creature....

Yeah, but I bet they make you wait 45 minutes for an 8 minute visit.... as in their time is very valuable so they overbook -- your time, well not so much.

[cwtnospam]

Which brings us back to the major imbalances in the economy: their time must be overbooked because large corporations (HMOs, Insurance companies) are abusing their oligopoly.

[Woodsman]

Quote: Originally Posted by aehurst Yeah, but I bet they make you wait 45 minutes for an 8 minute visit.... as in their time is very valuable so they overbook -- your time, well not so much.

Actually no. Not where I go. I don't think they overbook; because of the bus times I tend to be there in good time, with a book, and sometimes the doc pops his head out and calls me in early. It's a very patient-friendly atmosphere, the receptionist are not behind glass and ignoring you like in some places.

[aehurst]

Quote: Originally Posted by Woodsman Actually no. Not where I go. I don't think they overbook; because of the bus times I tend to be there in good time, with a book, and sometimes the doc pops his head out and calls me in early. It's a very patient-friendly atmosphere, the receptionist are not behind glass and ignoring you like in some places.

But how can that be? You guys have the state sponsored insurance, right? ... huge waiting lines, waiting lists for everything..... months or years delay to get surgery. While we free enterprise folk can pick and choose our doctors and we don't have those long lines or waits for surgery.... at least that's what our leaders keep telling us as the reason we can't have universal health care.

Reality is I wait for everything ... several hour wait in the emergency rooms are common (unless you're bleeding profusely). I've waited months for an appointment to see a specialist, even with a referral from the primary care doc. Routine 45 minute wait to see a doc even with an early morning appointment (afternoon delays are longer because there's more time for them to get backed up, called out for an emergency, etc.... never get ahead of schedule).

[cwtnospam]

Quote: Originally Posted by aehurst But how can that be? You guys have the state sponsored insurance, right? ... huge waiting lines, waiting lists for everything..... months or years delay to get surgery. While we free enterprise folk can pick and choose our doctors and we don't have those long lines or waits for surgery.... at least that's what our leaders keep telling us as the reason we can't have universal health care. Reality is I wait for everything ... several hour wait in the emergency rooms are common (unless you're bleeding profusely). I've waited months for an appointment to see a specialist, even with a referral from the primary care doc. Routine 45 minute wait to see a doc even with an early morning appointment (afternoon delays are longer because there's more time for them to get backed up, called out for an emergency, etc.... never get ahead of schedule).

Now you've done it! You know that Rush is a Mac user right? He's going to read this and publicly brand you a Socialist for implying that our system isn't perfect!

[Woodsman]

Quote: Originally Posted by aehurst But how can that be? You guys have the state sponsored insurance, right? ... huge waiting lines, waiting lists for everything..... months or years delay to get surgery.

Actually, we socialists are incredibly fit because we spend those days in the waiting rooms marching up and down with placards proclaiming our love for the Dear Leader

[aehurst]

Quote: Originally Posted by cwtnospam Now you've done it! You know that Rush is a Mac user right? He's going to read this and publicly brand you a Socialist for implying that our system isn't perfect!

Ha! His 13 listeners can think hear whatever they like.