Debian and Mac OS X

[thatch]

I tried adding the lines you mentioned to /etc/sysctl.conf but got no change.

When I do a:

cat /proc/sys/dev/mac_hid/keyboard_sends_linux_keycodes

I get a return value of:

1

So, I tried renaming my ~/.zshrc to same.old, logged out and back in to use the default zshrc which gave me tab completion, no unmatched ' error, but the delete key still doesn't work right. I noticed that I can correct a badly typed line with the delete key if I use the back arrow to move the cursor right on the character I want to delete. If I want to delete another previous character, I must again use the back arrow to put the cursor right over the top of that character and press delete. Weird.

Another observation: Copy and Paste doesn't work at all, with either control-c, command-c or contol-v, command-v.

[thatch]

After much fooling around, commenting out various parts of my ~/.zshrc and testing again and again, I finally found the line which was causing the unmatched '. It was a line just after the end of a previous line which was too long and was 'space escaped' to continue on the next line without newline. It wasn't a problem in OS X but apparently is in Debian. I really don't understand why.

Further testing in the same fashion got my completions back. Basically, I commented out all the neat completions I had been using with OS X and then it worked, which figures because it worked without my ~/.zshrc file and only the default /etc/zshrc.

Now if I could only figure out why zsh takes away the delete key, I'd be all set. I did find that a 'control-h' will do the same thing and so at least I've been able to use that when I need to correct a typo. Otherwise, I would have had to abandon zsh for bash because I can't live with not being able to correct typos while working in a console.

With a 'sudo showkey', it's easy to see what key you press is coded to. For me, the delete key is 14, while the 'control-h' is 29 and 35 respectively. Trouble is that I don't know the syntax to alter these keys in /etc/sysctl.conf, but I'm sure it can't be too difficult. It's just a matter of finding it and info on sysctl.conf doesn't say anything about how to do that kind of thing. Go figure!

[stetner]

Quote: Originally posted by Glanz This "bad advice" applies to users of Linux, OS X, FreeBSD, etc

At least you labeled it as such 8-) This is the area religious wars are made of, but what the hell.

No editor is perfect, I love BBEdit, but there are some things that I can do much much faster with vi.

No editor interface is 'intuitive' to everybody.

The number one reason I tell everyone to at least get comfortable with vi is that you always know it is there (if it isn't, ed will be, which is close enough 8-), and sometimes you do not have a windowing system up when you are working on a unix box (that is usually the time when the **** is hitting the fan too 8-). (Ooh, I didn't know you couldn't say that word here 8-)

When things are good, use what you will, when you are stuck in single user mode (with all hell breaking loose, at a vt100 terminal, in the machine room, bosses looking over your shoulder,) trying to fix a problem, you will be glad you know vi some day...

Cheers

[pmccann]

[[BTW: the stamina you guys have shown in this thread is absolutely, unequivocally, *amazing*. Impatient old farts like the current author would have placed those CD's back on the shelf ages ago. Congrats on getting things to an "oh so close" state. {Confession: I tried for about three days to get Linux PPC to install on a 5500 once (circa 1998). Three really horrible days. Never even got close. Trawled the net, quizzed others, even *watched* others do the same things I did and have it work (albeit on slightly different hardware). But never got close to victory myself. Resigned in abject failure. On the plus side (maybe it'll even stop Glanz from sneering at me!) I have installed FreeBSD on a number of platforms, and have danced the upgrade dance on some pretty critical systems. That can really get the adrenaline pumping. In retrospect I think it was a hardware incompatibility with Linux PPC; distro claimed my machine was fully supported, but "no Linux for you".]]

Now what the heck am I doing in here? Oh yeah: "Me too..." re Doug's prescription of a good dose of vi, taken regularly. There's a distinct hurdle to get over, but once you make it (and it probably ain't gonna happen overnight) the thing becomes almost fun. You start to smile when that errant arrow key opens a stupid bloody new line and types a "D" on it (or whatever)! OK, that's a lie: when you start to smile in such situations instead of cursing the behaviour it's a sign of insanity.

Seriously though, once you start to "think *with* vi" (eg use "cw" to change a word, use "r" to replace the character under the cursor with a single other character and so forth, use d/whatever to delete from the cursor up to the first occurrence of "whatever", learn to pipe chunks of your file to other utilities via :1,10r! and the like (eg :%!perl -ne'printf "\%02d: \%s", ++$i,$_'), you start to appreciate the tao of vi.

And then you discover vim, and thank your favourite deity for creating Bram.

Cheers,
Paul

[Glanz]

Quote: Originally posted by stetner At least you labeled it as such 8-) This is the area religious wars are made of, but what the hell. .....trying to fix a problem, you will be glad you know vi some day... Cheers

Yes indeed!!! I agree with you!... The only reason I use Nedit is because I am fundamentally lazy...... ai use vi often..... I prefer it to Vim also, maybe because I was trained to use it in BSD systems way back when..... Vi is essential! It is universal, and one can pass from system to system with ease if one knows at least its fundamentals. I consider Vi to be the most powerful editor around.... I like the fact that when editing, I do not have to remove my fingers from the keyboard position to use a mouse or touchpad.

I believe knowing Vi is a must. That said, I use Nedit for simple stuff, like writing a blackbox, or windowmaker theme..... I also use to be able to see the aesthetic format of lines and spaces as a whole entity, even for stuff I had previously edited with vi. Nedit is good for "whole page" views and minor corrections and touch-ups.

I also use Joe from time to time...., and nano for wee little stuff

NB: hehehe.... some folks even like emacs and xemacs (can't figure out why)... Emacs is excellent for those with obsessive/compulsive behaviour problems, and need to memorize esoterica ad infinitum.

[sao]

Quote: Glanz wrote: I hate convoluted editors.

While I understand that not all people are qualified to drive a Formula 1 car, I don't hate the cars or the drivers, just because I can't drive them.

On the contrary, I admire the beauty, imagination, and colors of different ways of driving, some of them very powerful ways indeed.

Actually, I secretly admire those who master the ability to do so. But hate... no, that's not in my book. In case of editors, especially when they come for free... I'm rather grateful, humbled and inspired at all the colors of the rainbow.

Many people before me, have put a lot of time and effort in creating something I can grab and use freely to suit my needs.

[Glanz]

Quote: Originally posted by pmccann [[BTW: the stamina you guys have shown in this thread is absolutely, unequivocally, *amazing*. Impatient old farts like the current author would have placed those CD's back on the shelf ages ago. ########### On the plus side (maybe it'll even stop Glanz from sneering at me!) I have installed FreeBSD on a number of platforms, and have danced the upgrade dance on some pretty critical systems. ################## And then you discover vim, and thank your favourite deity for creating Bram. Cheers, Paul

As a pigheaded "old fart" to an impatient one, let me say I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who has installed FreeBSD on more than several machines. NOTE: the first one I installed was one I installed from a tape drive in California so that I could hand carry it to Vancouver, BC..... That was the very first issue.
{possible flame}>>I notice that since that time back in the hippy era, the installer has degenerated into a hodge podge of esotericisms.. hehehehehe, but it's worth the trouble. The iBook from which I am writing this at this moment, has a BSD subsystem with a ports system set up for GNU-Darwin and FreeBSD ports.. The iBook with Debian and only Debian is at work. I also have been using Debian since its inception. That's why I like the Fink effort also, though I love giving them a hard time about their rather strange definition of the word 'unstable'....

As I stated, I agree with you about Vi.. Vim is there as usual, and I use it too from time to time, but Vi suffices for my needs.

[Glanz]

Quote: Originally posted by sao While I understand that not all people are qualified to drive a Formula 1 car, I don't hate the cars or the drivers, just because I can't drive them. On the contrary, I admire the beauty, imagination, and colors of different ways of driving, some of them very powerful ways indeed.

That's where we differ. I do not admire all that skill and intelligence used for emanating polluting gases into the atmosphere for the pleasure of piggy multinationals, and spectators who are watching in the secret hope to see a gory accident. I do not respect them. Sorry. I hate what they represent in this consumer society.

[sao]

Quote: Glanz wrote: That's why I like the Fink effort also, though I love giving them a hard time about their rather strange definition of the word 'unstable'....

The meaning that Fink gives to 'unstable' is clearly explained and written at their web site:

<<First make sure you understand what 'unstable' means. Packages in there usually have not been tested at all, many have problems or just won't compile. That is why Fink doesn't search the unstable tree by default.>>

<<Many Fink users may be using Fink's unstable tree without being fully aware of what this entails. Fink users who do not wish to help the Fink team with testing should disable their unstable tree.>>

<<The Fink team appreciates those users who are willing to stick with the unstable tree, even when there are problems like today's, and provide the team with prompt feedback. This is a community effort and we appreciate your participation.>>

What is it that you didn't understand?

Maybe, you are trying to change Fink 'unstable' meaning to suit your own definition?

[Glanz]

Quote: Originally posted by stetner No editor interface is 'intuitive' to everybody. Cheers

I know what you mean, but the fact is that use makes the heart grow fonder. EXAMPLE: I used emacs for years, until one day, I started thinking like Richard Stallman. That scared me so much I switched to Vi.

Since all these editors were created by very competent and devoted people....(emacs is really a masterpiece created by an incontestable genius), the user, also "people", will "get the feel of it" eventually.

[sao]

Quote: Glanz wrote: That's where we differ. I do not admire all that skill and intelligence used for emanating polluting gases into the atmosphere for the pleasure of piggy multinationals, and spectators who are watching in the secret hope to see a gory accident. I do not respect them. Sorry. I hate what they represent in this consumer society.[

My post about the cars was just an analogy. What does your answer have to do with the editors?

I give up!

Go ahead Glanz, make your day...!

[Glanz]

Quote: Originally posted by sao My post about the cars was just an analogy. What does your answer have to do with the editors? I give up! Go ahead Glanz, make your day...!

"hate" was just an anologic popular expression often used to express distaste by exaggeration.

Go ahead Sao.....
continue your crusade to save this lost sinner and bring him into the fold of passive sheep. Who knows, if you succeed, I may even say that Safari is a good browser, that the Fink developers can do no wrong, that in this great smiling community of tech, that everyone is right..... each in their own way. The only problem is, that wouldn't be true, but of course, lies are also helpful to leep things running smoothly........ and silence is golden, especially when it disturbs not.

[sao]

Quote: Glanz wrote: Go ahead Sao..... continue your crusade

No, Glanz. It was not a crusade for me. Anyhow, whatever it was, sorry if have bother you in any way, and rest assured I will *not* join any of your posts anymore.

[Glanz]

That's OK Sao; the great Penguin in the sky, and the little Daemon in the netherlands will forgive you....... eventually.

[sao]

Quote: Glanz wrote: That's OK Sao; the great Penguin in the sky, and the little Daemon in the netherlands will forgive you....... eventually.

Can't understand, but, thanks, Glanz. Whoever they are, may they forgive you too...

[thatch]

My goodness, this thread has taken a real turn here. But I'm glad to see some other kind souls taking an interest and participating.

I get the hint about vi. All in good time, as they say. And I believe you are all right about knowing it for a whole slew of reasons.

Getting back to using Debian... does anybody know how to map keys in Debian for an old powerbook? I still can't figure why a changing of shells would make the keys behave differently.

Another question... how do you make a startup item in Debian, so it will stick? There doesn't appear to be a startup items directory like in OS X. Specifically, I need to have, "sudo /sbin/trackpad notap", run at startup. And possibly some key mapping to make my delete key really work.

Besides all that though, I'm really happy to have an old dinosaur like the 3400 now running something I can get into and learn with rather than OS 8.6. It has been very challenging but also rewarding to just get Debian installed on it. Now, the challenge continues in learning how to perfect it to my liking. And after that, probably learning vi on it and OS X would be my next venture.

So, thanks to all for the constructive help given here. I really appreciate it.

[tjj]

Hm, yes, it\s nice to see that others found our struggles worthy of comments. thatch, my delete key works just fine. However, I'm unable to make the Alt key work. So for me presently, it's a choice between danish layout and the special characters (æ,ø,å) or a us layout and acces to @,| & $. I tried adding the line [Option ''LeftAlt'' "Meta''] to the XF86Config-4, but that didn't change anything.
I haven't yet figured out the syntax for changing the keycodes, so I just put a kbd/layoutswithcer in the panel as a clumsy workaround for the time being.
I got the F12 to work as a right click, so my panel is back, but when I put in a status panel it's very short and doesn't seem to work.
As for shells, my first unix experience was the default MacOSX-shell (tsch?) last fall, and the subtletiesof the different ones are presently lost on me.
l think the lines with linux-keycodes were meant for people who did a kernel upgrade to woody, not a first install. Forget where I read it.

pmccann, I would think that your three days trying to install would make some admire your (be it past) stamina.

btw, this is in mozilla on debian, and the trackpadmouse doesn't quite work. Can't scroll or click things when moz is running.

Edit:
Galeon is much quicker and let's the mouse work as expected.

It's hard to configure the system for a novice, but the speed of some app's at least holds some promise that all might not hvae been just for fun. Someday, it may even be useable

[tjj]

thatch, did my reply to private message get thru? I think I may have messed up experimenting with this Debian thing.

[thatch]

tjj, yes, I did get your private message. Sorry, it was late and I should have responded then and haven't followed up yet, but I will in a bit.

Did you get two exact copies of my private message? I just went and looked at them and saw two and I'm not sure why that might have happened.

On the Debian thing, my delete key worked fine with bash but not in zsh, which seems very strange. Why would a shell cause that to change? And the modifier keys problem was solved for me, so I'm not certain about the panel you speak of. Mine appears to be working okay. I guess it's sort of like the application switcher but I really don't use it that much, yet. If I had several things open at the same time, it would make sense to use.

Maybe I should be thinking about upgrading the woody kernel and that might make things work better, if it is at all possible for the 3400. I'll begin to investigate that in a little while.

Best,

thatch

[Glanz]

Someone fixed keymapping and other glitches by changing the Driver option in the XFConfig-4 file from ati128vr or something to devfb.
I have no idea what that will do.
########################
also::this is worth a try>>>

The XFree86 prob might be fixed by using macintosh_old rather than macintosh for the keyboard in the XFree86Config-4 file.
#####################
I would suggest finding the boot sector file and set the line under image=/vmlinux or whatever to
image=/vmlinux
label=Debian
read-only
append="video=aty128fb keyboard_sends_linux_keycodes=1"
####################
You have to get that keycodes=1 in there somewhere, but from you said earlier, you already have that fixed.
########################