Laptop user arrested for WiFi use

GavinBKK · 08-25-2007, 02:26 AM

From The Times in London:

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle2310670.ece

The array of opinions in reader's comments was interesting reading.

Anti · 08-25-2007, 02:33 AM

It amuses me that these countries waste numerous amounts of money on little things like this.

Photek · 08-25-2007, 04:25 AM

yeh... perhaps the Police should use their time on more serious crimes.... like all the stabbing and gun crime going on in London at the mo..

Jay Carr · 08-25-2007, 04:39 AM

I dunno, I think that if they can be caught (and it's not a complete pain), then they should do it. It is stealing after all, and no one likes having their bandwidth eaten up by someone else, right?

All the same, why people don't just lock their signals is beyond me...I have my router configured to only accept the Mac Addresses I put in it. Works like a charm...

woody78 · 08-25-2007, 04:42 AM

If it was unsecure then it shouldn't be a crime. If the offender had hacked into a secure WIFI network then it should be a crime. Its the owner of the account that put it out there. This is like a bar/nightclub/pub with peanuts - if they're on the counter then people can take them for free, if they're behind the counter people have to buy them (or steal them).

Alex Yeh · 08-25-2007, 05:30 AM

I remember hearing a similar case that happened here in the US.

Anti · 08-25-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody78


	If it was unsecure then it shouldn't be a crime. If the offender had hacked into a secure WIFI network then it should be a crime. Its the owner of the account that put it out there. This is like a bar/nightclub/pub with peanuts - if they're on the counter then people can take them for free, if they're behind the counter people have to buy them (or steal them).

I agree with this post all the way.

styrafome · 08-25-2007, 04:52 PM

I somewhat agree, I lock my network with WPA, but...

There's still plenty of room for it to be a crime. If you leave your MacBook Pro in your car, and you don't lock the car, and someone steals your MacBook Pro, is the thief Not Guilty because you made two mistakes?

If you leave your credit card behind on the store counter, and the guy behind you uses it, is that guy Not Guilty?

tlarkin · 08-25-2007, 05:01 PM

I have a full on thread about "technology police" on this forum, here:

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=76878

I find it interesting where the future lies in these types of crimes. On one hand some things should not be considered a crime and in the other hand someone will have to at sometime lay the smack down on some of these people out there.

It is a complete gray area I think as far as most countries laws go because digital intrusion is such a new thing. I mean if you open up your wifi with no security and I just use it to browse the web, am I liable for your mis-configuring of the wifi network?

Jay Carr · 08-25-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody78


	If it was unsecure then it shouldn't be a crime. If the offender had hacked into a secure WIFI network then it should be a crime. Its the owner of the account that put it out there. This is like a bar/nightclub/pub with peanuts - if they're on the counter then people can take them for free, if they're behind the counter people have to buy them (or steal them).

That's ridiculous. The peanuts on the counter are meant to be free, someones personal internet is not. Saying someone can use an unlocked router is more like saying, "if the front door is unlocked I can steal your computer." And, for the record, taking advantage of someone "just because they made it easy" is not the greatest of moral arguments.

tlarkin · 08-25-2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalister


	That's ridiculous. The peanuts on the counter are meant to be free, someones personal internet is not. Saying someone can use an unlocked router is more like saying, "if the front door is unlocked I can steal your computer." And, for the record, taking advantage of someone "just because they made it easy" is not the greatest of moral arguments.

My old neighbor had a WiFi access point that was called "You're Welcome" and it was wide open with no security.

Jay Carr · 08-26-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin


	My old neighbor had a WiFi access point that was called "You're Welcome" and it was wide open with no security.

LOL. Well, seems like that would be about the same as having a "help yourself" sign above your open unlocked door. I think permission was implied, right?

.

GavinBKK · 08-26-2007, 01:31 AM

This really is an interesting subject and I have sympathy with many of the arguments from all sides. I guess that means that I don't really know where I stand on it.

The UK, for instance, is so backward in terms of WiFi access, that I used to have to go wardriving when I visited there. Bought myself a wee handheld net scanner and away I went. The place I stay at has WiFi now, so no further need. I once bought access to an access point and it wouldn't let me login - emails to the admin went unanswered. So what is a visitor to do?

I was in Singapore in May and read that the government there has a stated aim for the island to be completely covered in free Wifi within two years. Given their track record of achievements, I believe they will do just that. That then gives real clarity to the issue. If there is total free coverage and you are caught blagging someone else's net, then it becomes a fair cop.

To paraphrase Monty Python: "You're ****ing nicked, me old beauty!"

Anti · 08-26-2007, 03:42 AM

Like I said before, why waste our resources on these people? I'd rather our jails be filled with people who could do some serious bodily harm to another, rather than some guy who was using a laptop to connect to a friggin' wireless network.

Jay Carr · 08-26-2007, 05:27 AM

While not conceding that WiFi stealing is legal, I do agree with Anti. Given the choice between jailing a person who jacked a WiFi signal and a killer, I think I'd rather jail the killer.

But the crucial point of data we are all missing is just how hard, and how much it would cost, to actually capture someone perpetrating the crime. Maybe this is one of those laws that they don't actively enforce, but if someone reports their neighbor (i.e., has the evidence in hand already), then you press charges?

I like what they are doing in Singapore, as mentioned by Gavin. I think that will be the way most cities are come 10 years, and I can't wait. The town I live in recently subsidized a fiber optics network, so we all get fiber for $40 a month, not bad really. Step in the right direction, that's for sure. I just can't wait till it's free...

GavinBKK · 08-26-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalister


	I like what they are doing in Singapore, as mentioned by Gavin. I think that will be the way most cities are come 10 years, and I can't wait.

The thing is that the increased productivity that comes from being "always on" is considerable - why are Blackberries so popular, for instance? Not having open, state-funded free access is so short-sighted. This is a classically Singaporean thing to do. Far sighted.

Singers is not a cheap place to live and/or do business but the quality of the infrastructure and independent legal system there makes the place an irrisistable destination, In a part of the world where these two concepts are still somewhat nascent.

And that's why they leave their neighbours in the dust. Good for them.

G.

Wee_Guy · 08-26-2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:


	I'd rather our jails be filled with people who could do some serious bodily harm to another, rather than some guy who was using a laptop to connect to a friggin' wireless network.

That seems to be the way that the whole police force (in the UK anyway) runs, jailing/fining people for near-to-nothing. And if they do jail the killers, they just jail them for a while, then relese them back into the country to kill some more people. I think that at the very minimum they should be jailed then exported, and permenantly banned from the country. And a really big fine(several £thousand) might help put people off killing others.

Costas · 08-26-2007, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wee_Guy


	...I think that at the very minimum they should be jailed then exported, and permenantly banned from the country...

Ah, if only there were a large expanse of land on the other side of the world we could send them to..... ;-)

Costas

Wee_Guy · 08-26-2007, 08:16 AM

Well you could export them to any country, then they'll play hot-potato until the criminal lands in a country that lets them stay there (like the UK) or until the criminal meets up with another criminal friend, have a argument over who's banned from the most countries, get violent, and kill each other.

Or you could just send them to the moon! (that would be what the fine would be paying for

)

Costas · 08-26-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wee_Guy


	Well you could export them to any country, then they'll play hot-potato until the criminal lands in a country that lets them stay there (like the UK) or until the criminal meets up with another criminal friend, have a argument over who's banned from the most countries, get violent, and kill each other. Or you could just send them to the moon! (that would be what the fine would be paying for)

I was, tongue in cheek, referring to England in the late 18th and early 19th century exporting it's "criminals" to Australia. Can you imagine an English judge sentences a pick-pocket to transportation to Bondi Beach. "You shall go surfing for the term of your natural life".

Costas

08-25-2007, 02:26 AM	#1
GavinBKK Hall of Famer Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand Posts: 3,359	Laptop user arrested for WiFi use From The Times in London: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle2310670.ece The array of opinions in reader's comments was interesting reading. __________________ LoadsaMacs.

08-25-2007, 02:33 AM	#2
Anti MVP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 1,530	It amuses me that these countries waste numerous amounts of money on little things like this. __________________ Xodium Dot Net.

08-25-2007, 04:39 AM	#4
Jay Carr Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 3,110	I dunno, I think that if they can be caught (and it's not a complete pain), then they should do it. It is stealing after all, and no one likes having their bandwidth eaten up by someone else, right? All the same, why people don't just lock their signals is beyond me...I have my router configured to only accept the Mac Addresses I put in it. Works like a charm... __________________ ~ Long ago I was called Zalister, keep that in mind when reading responses to my old posts.

08-25-2007, 04:42 AM	#5
woody78 Prospect Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17	If it was unsecure then it shouldn't be a crime. If the offender had hacked into a secure WIFI network then it should be a crime. Its the owner of the account that put it out there. This is like a bar/nightclub/pub with peanuts - if they're on the counter then people can take them for free, if they're behind the counter people have to buy them (or steal them). Last edited by woody78; 08-25-2007 at 04:50 AM.

08-26-2007, 01:31 AM	#13
GavinBKK Hall of Famer Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand Posts: 3,359	This really is an interesting subject and I have sympathy with many of the arguments from all sides. I guess that means that I don't really know where I stand on it. The UK, for instance, is so backward in terms of WiFi access, that I used to have to go wardriving when I visited there. Bought myself a wee handheld net scanner and away I went. The place I stay at has WiFi now, so no further need. I once bought access to an access point and it wouldn't let me login - emails to the admin went unanswered. So what is a visitor to do? I was in Singapore in May and read that the government there has a stated aim for the island to be completely covered in free Wifi within two years. Given their track record of achievements, I believe they will do just that. That then gives real clarity to the issue. If there is total free coverage and you are caught blagging someone else's net, then it becomes a fair cop. To paraphrase Monty Python: "You're ****ing nicked, me old beauty!" __________________ LoadsaMacs.

08-25-2007, 04:25 AM	#3
Photek Hall of Famer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Warwick, UK Posts: 4,835	yeh... perhaps the Police should use their time on more serious crimes.... like all the stabbing and gun crime going on in London at the mo..

08-25-2007, 05:30 AM	#6
Alex Yeh Triple-A Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 239	I remember hearing a similar case that happened here in the US.

08-25-2007, 04:52 PM	#8
styrafome Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,818	I somewhat agree, I lock my network with WPA, but... There's still plenty of room for it to be a crime. If you leave your MacBook Pro in your car, and you don't lock the car, and someone steals your MacBook Pro, is the thief Not Guilty because you made two mistakes? If you leave your credit card behind on the store counter, and the guy behind you uses it, is that guy Not Guilty?

08-25-2007, 05:01 PM	#9
tlarkin League Commissioner Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 11,352	I have a full on thread about "technology police" on this forum, here: http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=76878 I find it interesting where the future lies in these types of crimes. On one hand some things should not be considered a crime and in the other hand someone will have to at sometime lay the smack down on some of these people out there. It is a complete gray area I think as far as most countries laws go because digital intrusion is such a new thing. I mean if you open up your wifi with no security and I just use it to browse the web, am I liable for your mis-configuring of the wifi network?

08-26-2007, 03:42 AM	#14
Anti MVP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 1,530	Like I said before, why waste our resources on these people? I'd rather our jails be filled with people who could do some serious bodily harm to another, rather than some guy who was using a laptop to connect to a friggin' wireless network. __________________ Xodium Dot Net.

08-26-2007, 05:27 AM	#15
Jay Carr Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 3,110	While not conceding that WiFi stealing is legal, I do agree with Anti. Given the choice between jailing a person who jacked a WiFi signal and a killer, I think I'd rather jail the killer. But the crucial point of data we are all missing is just how hard, and how much it would cost, to actually capture someone perpetrating the crime. Maybe this is one of those laws that they don't actively enforce, but if someone reports their neighbor (i.e., has the evidence in hand already), then you press charges? I like what they are doing in Singapore, as mentioned by Gavin. I think that will be the way most cities are come 10 years, and I can't wait. The town I live in recently subsidized a fiber optics network, so we all get fiber for $40 a month, not bad really. Step in the right direction, that's for sure. I just can't wait till it's free... __________________ ~ Long ago I was called Zalister, keep that in mind when reading responses to my old posts.

08-26-2007, 08:16 AM	#19
Wee_Guy Major Leaguer Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 495	Well you could export them to any country, then they'll play hot-potato until the criminal lands in a country that lets them stay there (like the UK) or until the criminal meets up with another criminal friend, have a argument over who's banned from the most countries, get violent, and kill each other. Or you could just send them to the moon! (that would be what the fine would be paying for)