Bandwidth Available for Avatars?

baryonyx · 11-18-2002, 06:29 PM

Rob--

Any chance of having avatars on the board, or do bandwidth limitations preclude them?

Andy

Craig R. Arko · 11-18-2002, 06:43 PM

Andy, I think it's a bad idea. Though I know how you got it.

There's a potential privacy issue involving IP address harvesting that this could open up. I'd rather not go into detail beyond that, but I'd prefer if we don't contribute to it.

baryonyx · 11-18-2002, 11:57 PM

I had absolutely no idea. My avatar is gone from that "other" board ASAP.

Andy

Craig R. Arko · 11-19-2002, 07:19 AM

It's not that big a deal; but prevention beats damage control any time. I set out my reasons in a PM to you.

You can leave your image there; it really doesn't make any difference.

Phil St. Romain · 11-19-2002, 12:05 PM

Please say more about the IP address harvesting, Craig. I have my web site URL posted publicly anyway, so I'm not sure what difference that would make for me.

Craig R. Arko · 11-19-2002, 12:28 PM

Well, it's pretty simple. If I host my image from my web server and post in a thread, anyone who simply views that thread will likely download that image, yes?

When they do my server log captures the time-stamped IP address of the client. Collect that data over several days or a few weeks and do a little comparing and it won't be too hard to start correlating IP's to people. Think of it like the 1 pixel GIF cookie planting scheme, that happen at so many web sites now. Now all one has to do is find the right market research firm willing to buy that data.

It may even be possible to plant a cookie along with the avatar image; I'm not planning on finding this out though.

But see how this differs from posting a link to an image that people need to click (opt-in) to view? This is a little more insidious and the only thing to do about it from the client is to block images, which few folks do.

Sorry if this seems picky; network security/privacy is one of my ongoing research projects.

baryonyx · 11-19-2002, 12:59 PM

Craig, the more I think about this the less of a threat it seems to be to me. The reason for that is that site admins already have access to IP addresses and seem to be able to link them up with individual accounts. If memory serves, this is one of the methods site admins have for sniffing out banned users.

If that's the case, who needs to go to the trouble of planting cookies? They've already got it.

Unless, that is, you're talking about a third party (which doesn't seem to be the case)...?

mervTormel · 11-19-2002, 01:27 PM

andy, i think one of the issues here is that if the hint sites were to enable avatars, we would have to compose and publish a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo caveats that could entangle the sites' and owner's intentions.

craig, is that any where near accurate?

Craig R. Arko · 11-19-2002, 01:29 PM

Anybody who posts an image from a web server they can access the log file on can do this. That's the key; where does the image come from and who can track it?

That's a different thing than the admins of a site like this logging IP's for administrative tasks. We've already entered into a privacy agreement with you about when that data may be used.

Do you see the difference? I never said it was a huge threat, but it is a threat.

Edit - Merv, I just don't see that the benefits outweigh even a remote chance of aiding some evildoer's cause.

Edit2 - But I'm not the only one with a say in this, either.

baryonyx · 11-19-2002, 01:37 PM

merv, I'm not arguing for the use of avatars on OSX Hints. I was curious because it's all the rage on another board I go to a lot and I had fun designing and drawing my own silly little character. I accept the determination of the folks running this site that avatars are not what they want.

What I'm now trying to understand more completely is how safe we are posting an avatar anywhere, given Craig's interesting info about IP address harvesting. Perhaps the OS X Hints Feedback Forum is no longer appropriate for this wider-ranging inquiry and discussion.

Craig R. Arko · 11-19-2002, 01:49 PM

Andy: you posting an avatar does nothing to increase your vulnerability to what I'm getting at. The threat is as simple as clicking on a thread where someone else has embedded an image. You download their image automatically and make an entry in a log whether you even know what an avatar is. Of course this is something we all do all the time anyway, which is why it's not a huge deal.

I think you're right about this not being the best place to carry on this discussion though. My apologies if I've hijacked your thread.

baryonyx · 11-19-2002, 01:59 PM

Heck no, Craig! Your postings are what have made this thread so fascinating. Please don't apologize.

Besides, I've been known to hijack a thread or two...

Andy

Phil St. Romain · 11-19-2002, 03:28 PM

Agreed that it's not off-thread in that we're discussing the pros and cons of feedback given.

I follow your points, Craig, and they make sense. Thanks for the explanations.

Re. this site, I have no strong opinion either way about avatars (except I wish they weren't called that!). If it overly complicates our agreement with forum members and runs up the bandwidth, then those are reasons enough to keep that option disabled. Then there's the security issues you raised . . .

mervTormel · 11-19-2002, 04:13 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by Phil St. Romain ...I have no strong opinion either way about avatars (except I wish they weren't called that!)...

Good Vishnu, Phil, you're so literal!

the etymology is curious, tho...

Code:

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Avatar \Av`a*tar"\, n. [Skr. avat[^a]ra descent; ava from + root
   t[.r] to cross, pass over.]
   1. (Hindoo Myth.) The descent of a deity to earth, and his
      incarnation as a man or an animal; -- chiefly associated
      with the incarnations of Vishnu.

   2. Incarnation; manifestation as an object of worship or
      admiration.

From Jargon File (4.3.0, 30 APR 2001):

avatar n. Syn. [in Hindu mythology, the incarnation of a god] 1. Among
   people working on virtual reality and cyberspace interfaces, an
   "avatar" is an icon or representation of a user in a shared virtual
   reality. The term is sometimes used on MUDs. 2. [CMU, Tektronix]
   root, superuser. There are quite a few Unix machines on which the
   name of the superuser account is `avatar' rather than `root'. This quirk
   was originated by a CMU hacker who found the terms `root' and
   `superuser' unimaginative, and thought `avatar' might better impress
   people with the responsibility they were accepting.

boy, i don't grok any of this avatar/ip harvesting stuff. but, i also don't want any more explanation.

except, maybe, this one: are you telling me that for every avatar i see, the image comes from the avatar owner's host and not the current site? and isn't that a design problem? and wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of bork'd avatar images where the host is unavailable? feel free to ignore my questions.

--
Generally speaking, nightshirts and fancy titles are a waste of time.

Craig R. Arko · 11-19-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by mervTormel except, maybe, this one: are you telling me that for every avatar i see, the image comes from the avatar owner's host and not the current site? and isn't that a design problem? and wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of bork'd avatar images where the host is unavailable? feel free to ignore my questions.

That depends entirely on the forum software and its configuration. Some cache the image locally at the forum server and some pull it from a URL. It's the second kind that would be the problem. I have seen plenty of bork'd signature images at MacNN because the servers were not available.

I don't know what vBulletin does. I don't really want to, either.

mervTormel · 11-19-2002, 04:33 PM

i see. thanx, craig. i don't visit many avatar'd sites. noisier than times square during the holidays.

griffman · 11-19-2002, 04:37 PM

My $0.02 on the issue...

The primary reason for the lack of avatars is aesthetic. On a forum designed for general conversation, they make a ton of sense - they can help convey a sense of the user's personality, their background, whatever they want to project.

On a site such as this one, however, I think the message is the important part, not necessarily the eye candy that goes with avatars (and images in signatures, for that matter). On sites with both enabled, I often times have trouble finding the content amongst all the blinking lights and flashing backgrounds.

If I could, I would probably enable avatars in the Coat Room, but vBulletin only offers on/off options, not on a per-forum basis...

-rob.

mervTormel · 11-19-2002, 04:46 PM

heh. that's right, rob. the message is often difficult enough to figure out without all the blinkenlights.

baryonyx · 11-19-2002, 04:48 PM

Make sense to me.

By the way, I absolutely detest the coopting of the word avatar as well. I've been ticked off for years over media--and marketing in particular--use of the word "cyberspace."

Completely nicked from William Gibson and having nothing to do with his vision of a "matrix." (And don't get me started on that title, although I loved the movie.)

Andy

robarmo · 11-19-2002, 06:05 PM

At the end of the day, if you are experiencing serious problems with your machine(s), it`d take a lot more than a little cartoon character to cheer me up, let alone solve my problems. I think it`s safe to say that the majority of users here visit for information, and to help others where they can. It`s already a friendly forum, and if you REALLY need to convey emotions, isn`t that what the Smilies/Emoticons are for?

(Thats my contribution anyway.)

Rob.

11-18-2002, 06:29 PM	#1
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	Bandwidth Available for Avatars? Rob-- Any chance of having avatars on the board, or do bandwidth limitations preclude them? Andy

11-19-2002, 01:27 PM	#8
mervTormel League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,536	andy, i think one of the issues here is that if the hint sites were to enable avatars, we would have to compose and publish a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo caveats that could entangle the sites' and owner's intentions. craig, is that any where near accurate? __________________ On a clear disk, you can seek forever.

11-19-2002, 04:33 PM	#16
mervTormel League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,536	i see. thanx, craig. i don't visit many avatar'd sites. noisier than times square during the holidays. __________________ On a clear disk, you can seek forever.

11-19-2002, 04:46 PM	#18
mervTormel League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,536	heh. that's right, rob. the message is often difficult enough to figure out without all the blinkenlights. __________________ On a clear disk, you can seek forever.

11-19-2002, 06:05 PM	#20
robarmo Major Leaguer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 306	RE:Avatars At the end of the day, if you are experiencing serious problems with your machine(s), it`d take a lot more than a little cartoon character to cheer me up, let alone solve my problems. I think it`s safe to say that the majority of users here visit for information, and to help others where they can. It`s already a friendly forum, and if you REALLY need to convey emotions, isn`t that what the Smilies/Emoticons are for? (Thats my contribution anyway.) Rob.

11-18-2002, 06:43 PM	#2
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	Andy, I think it's a bad idea. Though I know how you got it. There's a potential privacy issue involving IP address harvesting that this could open up. I'd rather not go into detail beyond that, but I'd prefer if we don't contribute to it.

11-18-2002, 11:57 PM	#3
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	I had absolutely no idea. My avatar is gone from that "other" board ASAP. Andy

11-19-2002, 07:19 AM	#4
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	It's not that big a deal; but prevention beats damage control any time. I set out my reasons in a PM to you. You can leave your image there; it really doesn't make any difference.

11-19-2002, 12:05 PM	#5
Phil St. Romain Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 2,350	Please say more about the IP address harvesting, Craig. I have my web site URL posted publicly anyway, so I'm not sure what difference that would make for me.

11-19-2002, 12:28 PM	#6
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	Well, it's pretty simple. If I host my image from my web server and post in a thread, anyone who simply views that thread will likely download that image, yes? When they do my server log captures the time-stamped IP address of the client. Collect that data over several days or a few weeks and do a little comparing and it won't be too hard to start correlating IP's to people. Think of it like the 1 pixel GIF cookie planting scheme, that happen at so many web sites now. Now all one has to do is find the right market research firm willing to buy that data. It may even be possible to plant a cookie along with the avatar image; I'm not planning on finding this out though. But see how this differs from posting a link to an image that people need to click (opt-in) to view? This is a little more insidious and the only thing to do about it from the client is to block images, which few folks do. Sorry if this seems picky; network security/privacy is one of my ongoing research projects.

11-19-2002, 12:59 PM	#7
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	Craig, the more I think about this the less of a threat it seems to be to me. The reason for that is that site admins already have access to IP addresses and seem to be able to link them up with individual accounts. If memory serves, this is one of the methods site admins have for sniffing out banned users. If that's the case, who needs to go to the trouble of planting cookies? They've already got it. Unless, that is, you're talking about a third party (which doesn't seem to be the case)...?

11-19-2002, 01:29 PM	#9
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	Anybody who posts an image from a web server they can access the log file on can do this. That's the key; where does the image come from and who can track it? That's a different thing than the admins of a site like this logging IP's for administrative tasks. We've already entered into a privacy agreement with you about when that data may be used. Do you see the difference? I never said it was a huge threat, but it is a threat. Edit - Merv, I just don't see that the benefits outweigh even a remote chance of aiding some evildoer's cause. Edit2 - But I'm not the only one with a say in this, either.

11-19-2002, 01:37 PM	#10
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	merv, I'm not arguing for the use of avatars on OSX Hints. I was curious because it's all the rage on another board I go to a lot and I had fun designing and drawing my own silly little character. I accept the determination of the folks running this site that avatars are not what they want. What I'm now trying to understand more completely is how safe we are posting an avatar anywhere, given Craig's interesting info about IP address harvesting. Perhaps the OS X Hints Feedback Forum is no longer appropriate for this wider-ranging inquiry and discussion.

11-19-2002, 01:49 PM	#11
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	Andy: you posting an avatar does nothing to increase your vulnerability to what I'm getting at. The threat is as simple as clicking on a thread where someone else has embedded an image. You download their image automatically and make an entry in a log whether you even know what an avatar is. Of course this is something we all do all the time anyway, which is why it's not a huge deal. I think you're right about this not being the best place to carry on this discussion though. My apologies if I've hijacked your thread.

11-19-2002, 01:59 PM	#12
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	Heck no, Craig! Your postings are what have made this thread so fascinating. Please don't apologize. Besides, I've been known to hijack a thread or two... Andy

11-19-2002, 03:28 PM	#13
Phil St. Romain Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 2,350	Agreed that it's not off-thread in that we're discussing the pros and cons of feedback given. I follow your points, Craig, and they make sense. Thanks for the explanations. Re. this site, I have no strong opinion either way about avatars (except I wish they weren't called that!). If it overly complicates our agreement with forum members and runs up the bandwidth, then those are reasons enough to keep that option disabled. Then there's the security issues you raised . . .

11-19-2002, 04:37 PM	#17
griffman MVP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,472	My $0.02 on the issue... The primary reason for the lack of avatars is aesthetic. On a forum designed for general conversation, they make a ton of sense - they can help convey a sense of the user's personality, their background, whatever they want to project. On a site such as this one, however, I think the message is the important part, not necessarily the eye candy that goes with avatars (and images in signatures, for that matter). On sites with both enabled, I often times have trouble finding the content amongst all the blinking lights and flashing backgrounds. If I could, I would probably enable avatars in the Coat Room, but vBulletin only offers on/off options, not on a per-forum basis... -rob.

11-19-2002, 04:48 PM	#19
baryonyx Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 300	Make sense to me. By the way, I absolutely detest the coopting of the word avatar as well. I've been ticked off for years over media--and marketing in particular--use of the word "cyberspace." Completely nicked from William Gibson and having nothing to do with his vision of a "matrix." (And don't get me started on that title, although I loved the movie.) Andy