Need software to shut down G4 against child's wishes

[tbsingleton73]

I agree with hayne, Monitoring is a form of punishment.
She should be told why she is being monitored.
If she can show that she is turst worthy, ie. not being on the computer when she should not, etc, etc, then you would lessen the monitoring.
Eventually through trust, you should be able to get to a point where you don't need to monitor.
Also point out, this is all "her" choice. The point you are at now is because of her choices, and where you go from here is up to her future choices.

[acme.mail.order]

VNC software can be installed remotely via the command line, but you need to be fairly Unix-fluent to do it.

I would take a rather simple view of shutting the thing off - a boot item hidden in the startup process (different depending wether you have 10.3 or 10.4) that runs the following (as root):

until [ $HellFreezesOver ]
do
if [[ `date "+%H"` > 22 ]]
then
shutdown -h now
fi
sleep 10
done


It will lock the machine into a shutdown loop that will be very hard to hack out of. If she's smart enough to do it, then whatever she's doing in the wee hours is working, and she has a promising programming career ahead.

Now, if you change the `shutown` command to `diskutil eraseDisk HFS+ SarahWasBad disk0` you have a slightly more permanent solution, reminiscent of Cinderella's coach at midnight.

[vickishome]

hayne, I should have been more clear (and I just edited my earlier post because I did misstate that point). She knows she's being monitored, but she has no idea how. She does not know what software is being used or what I can or cannot see or whether I can see it remotely. But both kids know they are being monitored, but that's all they know. My older daughter has figured out that I can see some of her stuff on my computer, but she's clueless as to how.

cwtnospam, it doesn't sound like D-link will work for me then. I record shows on my G5, some of which come on at 2AM - 3AM. So I can't block everyone out. Besides, my husband and I should be allowed to use our computers whenever we wish. We do not have the same curfews as our children.

tbsingleton73, I never considered monitoring as a punishment. To me, it's the same as not allowing my children to roam downtown all alone in the middle of the night. It's not merely a trust issue of the children, but a concern that they are not yet wise enough to know when a predator may approach them or whether they are giving out too much information that could invite a predator. I may be a bit over zealous on this issue, but I was sexually molested for almost 10 years as a child so I am very careful to keep my kids from falling prey to these people on the internet. Have you ever seen any of the Dateline predator shows? Sexual molesters can be anyone, and it's impossible for anyone to know. In my case, it was my own father. He seems like a perfectly normal person on the outside. However, from my therapy, it appears he has a sexual addiction and is also a sociopath (not all sociopaths are mass-murderers, some just do bad things to their own kids). So having had that experience, I am very protective of my kids' usage of the internet.

However, I do agree and very much ensure that she understands that the consequences of her actions are from HER choices, both desirable and undesirable. But monitoring is not a choice and it's not because of her abuse of the computer. It's because she is young, not sexually knowledgeable, and can easily be fooled by a predator so she needs a parent to watch over her internet activities to ensure her safety.

acme.mail.order, as much as I would love to go the unix route, I don't have the knowledge nor time to learn what I'd need to learn to do what I want to do. I need something already written for me that I can just plug in and use with a user-friendly interface.

30 minutes to go, and it's curfew time. Then I can install Mac Minder on her G4 and begin to play with it.

[vickishome]

Mac Minder experience so far:

Okay, to get it set up, I first had to log on as the admin on my daughter's G4 and install Mac Minder on there. Then I had to set the preferences to allow for remote administration. I also had to open a port in the firewall to allow the remote administration to work.

Once that was done, I installed Mac Minder on my PowerBook. At first, all seemed fine as it came up, showing my admin logon remotely. Then I logged off on the G4 and logged on with my daughter's account. This made Mac Minder on my PowerBook lock up. So I force quick Mac Minder on my PowerBook and restarted it again. It continued to lock up. I double checked everything, but couldn't figure out what was wrong. Every single time I tried to load Mac Minder, it would lock up. I even uninstalled and reinstalled it with no luck.

Finally, I switched users on the G4 back to my admin account, and this time Mac Minder fired up on my PowerBook. Good. So then I quit Mac Minder on my PowerBook and switched users on the G4. This did the trick. So, apparently, Mac Minder cannot handle having a user log off while it's connected remotely. I cannot keep up with the user log off and a new user log on. And once that happens, the only way to fix it is for the original user to log back in. Not ideal, but since my daughter is the only person who uses the G4, I can live with that.

BTW, I realized as I was doing this that in order to use the remote administration, I will most likely have to purchase TWO copies of the software, one for each computer... which raises the price tag from the simple $30 to the $50 Family Pack. Ugh. But I'll pay the extra because the remote administration is crucial to what I want to do.

Okay, once I got to where I could begin using Mac Minder remotely, I set up the computer time schedule. It's a little confusing, specifically because I believe they have an error in their docs. So I'm not sure if I have it set up correctly yet.

I had hoped that once I had it set up to lock out at a certain time, and it discovered it was 2 hours passed that time, it would have immediately began the lockout. But nope. This greatly concerns me. Does this mean all my daughter has to do is push the reset button and reboot her G4, and Mac Minder won't activate the lock down? Geeez, I hope not. Surely, you'd think they would have not allowed such a gaping hole in their software.

There are 3 features I dearly love. One is I can send a direct message to my daughter through Mac Minder. So when she has her music playing and her earphones on and she can't hear me (or chooses to pretend she can't hear me), I can send her a message! "Time to take out the trash!" can now be easily handled, regardless of iTunes being cranked up! In fact, I can bug her with repeated messages until she gets the job done. I can see the possibilities already!

The second feature I like is that I can get a live screenshot of her computer at any time. So if I have a suspicion that she's up to something (you know, that low giggle and the shifty eyes), I can get a quick screenshot of what she's up to without being obvious. If it's just plain kids' fun stuff, then cool. If it's more, then mom's all the wiser. Yes, dear, mom truly does have eyes in the back of her head, even x-ray vision through the walls!

Last, but not at all least, is a feature that allows me to do an immediate lockout of her computer. Refusing to do a chore? Instant lockout! Chore completed? Instant removal of lockout. Wow, do I like this one! I'll have to wait and see how the instant lockout affects any running programs. The lockout appears to be nothing more than a screensaver that requires a password to clear. If so, then I don't think it will do any harm to any programs running (although she might "die" if she's in a battle in her runescape game, but I guess that's the consequence for not doing chores when you're supposed to and having to have an instant lockout applied -- oh well!).

My biggest complaint thus far is poor documentation. It tells you the basics (click this to do an instant lockout), but it doesn't offer any deeper understanding of what truly happens when you apply any of these features. So I'm going to have to do some of my own testing to see what really happens. All in all, it appears to be a good start on a nice program, but it seems to still be in the early stages and not quite fully fleshed out yet.

It's really late, and I want to get some sleep so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to fiddle with some of the other features. But for now, I think it might do the trick of getting her off the computer at curfew time. I just have to see if she can somehow bypass it all by simply pressing the reset button. However, if she does that, she may find herself missing a keyboard and a mouse. It might be a bit difficult to use her computer without those minor accessories. And if she goes so far as to take MY keyboard and mouse, she may find her own butt at wilderness camp this summer. Her sister can tell her what a wonderful experience that is. One way or another, she will learn that we are the parents, she is the child, and like it or not, she will follow our rules. You would think as smart as she is and after seeing what we've gone through with her older sister, she would have figured out by now we are not pushovers nor were we born yesterday. She can ODD or ADHD all she wants, but she will still follow our rules. It's just a matter of how she chooses to do so, cooperatively or otherwise.

[acme.mail.order]

Quote: Originally Posted by vickishome acme.mail.order, as much as I would love to go the unix route, I don't have the knowledge nor time to learn what I'd need to learn to do what I want to do. I need something already written for me that I can just plug in and use with a user-friendly interface.

Well, just ask then...

(BTW, re your comment on MacMinder's cost, VNC is free - I'd be happy to step you through remote setup. PM or email me.)
There's also an easy and free way to block/redirect specfic sites that works on Mac and Windows if that's an issue.

I was halfway through writing a Startup Item when I thought of a better way.
(This better way won't work with a clean install of Tiger, but will work with an upgrade)

Open the terminal from your admin account and do the following: (just copy and paste the boldface stuff)

sudo bash
<enter your admin password>

echo "* 22-23 * * * root /sbin/shutdown -h now" >> /etc/crontab
echo "* 0-7 * * * root /sbin/shutdown -h now" >> /etc/crontab
logout

The machine will be trapped in a boot-shutdown sequence (well, starting a minute after cron gets going) from 22:00 to 23:59 (first line) and again from 0:00 to 7:59 (second line)

She will have to be one smart 13 year old* (or smart enough to read these forums at least) to get around it. /sbin/shutdown doesn't do pleasant things like ask permission before pulling the rug out from under the system.

BTW, I take the corporate view of parental computer monitoring - you paid for the box, you get to know what goes on. If the omen brat child little darling objects, time for a paper route

* changing the clock will do it, but I'm assuming she doesn't have admin priviledges to do this

[cwtnospam]

Quote: Originally Posted by vickishome it doesn't sound like D-link will work for me then. I record shows on my G5, some of which come on at 2AM - 3AM. So I can't block everyone out. Besides, my husband and I should be allowed to use our computers whenever we wish. We do not have the same curfews as our children.

As long as the G5 is on and using that ip address, you don't need to block it. If she were to shut it down and change her ip address to what the G5 was using, she'd get back online. It all depends on how much she knows about computers. There are ways around every step you can take.

[CAlvarez]

After you solve the technology issue, how will you address the underlying parenting issue which is going to become harder and harder to deal with as she matures?

[tbsingleton73]

vickishome,

http://www.spectorsoft.com/products/...osh/index.html

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by acme.mail.order Well, just ask then...

Oh my goodness! You are so kind to do that for me! I had no idea you would do that. And I hate to turn down your kindness, but for now, I'm really liking Mac Minder and want to continue to give it a try. I think it's going to not only do what I want, but the added features are turning out to be a huge bonus.

While my daughter may be very smart, she has never taken to learning anything about computers other than running programs and playing online games. Basically, she knows how to use Safari, AIM, MSN, Yahoo email, and a few system preferences. Other than that, she's clueless. She won't even take the time to read error messages whenever they've popped up on the screen.

Further, she knows I am not a pushover parent. She got away with some behaviors because I had fallen into a pretty bad depression, and just eating or even having enough energy to talk was too much for me. My doctor said I was finally into my "core issues" and was on the verge of a breakthrough, and with some changes of my medication, I have finally pulled back out of the depression and become functional again... which means... Mom is Mom again. And my daughter knows what that means. It's a dance, and she's in the lead. I'll follow her every step of the way, but she WILL learn to do her work and respect the rules; it's just a matter of HOW she will get there, and that is her choice. Whatever path she chooses, I'll be right there with her, doing whatever she requires that I do, even if it's not what either of us likes. I love her enough to be a real parent when she needs one.

Quote: Originally Posted by acme.mail.order BTW, I take the corporate view of parental computer monitoring - you paid for the box, you get to know what goes on. If the omen brat child little darling objects, time for a paper route

Actually, I discovered with my (then) delinquent older daughter that children own NOTHING until they get older (I think the age depends on the state, but it's somewhere around 16-18). This even includes any gifts they receive or money they earn from legitimate work such as paper routes or babysitting. They own NOTHING. Their parents own it ALL.

So even if she did buy herself a computer (ha!), she must (1) obtain our permission to buy it and (2) follow our computer curfew rules because it does not matter whatsoever who plunked down the cash for the machine, she is still our child and we are still the parents and we are still obligated to set appropriate rules that are in her best interest which include things such as computer curfews.

BTW, ownership was a major issue when my older daughter came home from Wilderness Camp. She came home to a completely stripped room that had been completely redecorated, even repainted, and was turned into a true Guest Room with all her stuff boxed up and removed (clothes, wall hangings, drawers, everything). And she was allowed to stay with us as a GUEST as long as she followed the rules that we would expect of any GUEST in our home. And if she was able to control herself and follow the rules we applied and had a good attitude and cooperated, then we would give her the opportunity to get some of her old belongings back and maybe even put up a few personal items in the room to make it feel more like her own room. This was her doctor's suggestion, and boy did it work! She was in absolute shock when she came home! But it really got her attention. She was, and we told her straight out, on borrowed time living with us. If she could not control herself, we would *lovingly* meet her needs by placing her in an appropriate facility for out-of-control teens. It's so amazing how a child who just 53 days earlier told us that she just could not control her anger as she proceeded to completely destroy her room (breaking her window and mirror, pulling shelves off the walls, throwing things, putting holes in the walls) could suddenly control her behavior so very well.

Almost all the kids that go to Wilderness Camp get sent to a Therapeutic Boarding School, and we had to really fight to not go along with the flow and bring her home. And I'm very happy to say that we did the right thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by acme.mail.order * changing the clock will do it, but I'm assuming she doesn't have admin priviledges to do this

Correct assumption.

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by cwtnospam As long as the G5 is on and using that ip address, you don't need to block it. If she were to shut it down and change her ip address to what the G5 was using, she'd get back online. It all depends on how much she knows about computers. There are ways around every step you can take.

First of all, if she ever went that far, she'd find her butt in some really big trouble. As far as I know, there is nothing in the law that requires we allow her access to a computer whatsoever.

But I guess if it ever did get to that point, I would move the modem and router into my bedroom where I could simply unplug her ethernet cable, leaving mine intact (all computers are password protected, and she only knows the password to her computer).

What my daughter does is try to get away with things in a more passive manner. "Didn't see the time; almost done; ooops, I forgot." She's not openly defiant in her behaviors (other than talking back, but even that's more passive than directly aggressive). So I honestly don't think she's going to do things that will circumvent Mac Minder; at least not at her current stage. But I will definitely keep these alternatives in mind for future reference should we find ourselves in need of something more secure than just a software program.

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by CAlvarez After you solve the technology issue, how will you address the underlying parenting issue which is going to become harder and harder to deal with as she matures?

I can hear the groans already as I have already gone off topic too much in this thread. How about I send you a PM later on this.

[hayne]

Quote: Originally Posted by vickishome I can hear the groans already as I have already gone off topic too much in this thread

I don't think it is off-topic.
The best solution to a problem is not always a technological one.
When the problem is a parenting problem, discussion of the human issues may be valuable to future readers.
Of course you need to consider if you want your family issues stored by Google etc forever.

[acme.mail.order]

When my sister was in junior high ('98-'00) she home schooled via the 'net for a number of reasons (bad behaviour was NOT one of them). The program created a very computer-savvy child who knew where every game download site on the web was. We once dumped about 2000 game programs. It ran better after that. Today's technology would have been very useful in keeping her on track. The same school program now uses Macs instead of Windows 98 machines. I wonder why

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne Of course you need to consider if you want your family issues stored by Google etc forever.

Don't see a big problem. There must be a lot of Vickis in Texas.

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by tbsingleton73 http://www.spectorsoft.com/products/...osh/index.html

That's the monitoring software I already have on her G4. But I'm not at all happy with it. They make the advertising sound so great by saying it captures all websites, keystrokes, emails, etc. But then look at the features list and keep in mind that all this software does is capture a series of screen shots. So, great, you get to see a series of screen shots. It's better than nothing, but just barely better.

P.S. Nothing like trying to post messages in the middle of the night while in bed using your PowerBook. I feel asleep after writing the above, but before hitting the Submit button!

So good morning to one and all!

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne I don't think it is off-topic. The best solution to a problem is not always a technological one. When the problem is a parenting problem, discussion of the human issues may be valuable to future readers. Of course you need to consider if you want your family issues stored by Google etc forever.

As you are the moderator, then I will accept that I'm not infringing upon the rules of the board to answer the previous question.

As far as Google is concerned, whatever. I have never abused my kids, and this is real life. I have nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed of. I have to admit, I was probably one of the worst when it came to not believing in any psychological stuff, especially when people claimed to have depression. But then that was part of my upbringing. There were never any excuses for anything. You just get your GD work done and shut up. So I was abused, neglected and sexually abused for years and, through my therapy, discovered that I cannot remember most of my childhood (my memories begin around age 11), and I kept saying "I was fine; I don't need any help; it's all okay," I discovered that it's not fine, it's not okay, and it had affected me which then turned around and affected me as a parent. I could take anything myself, but I cannot sit by and watch my children be affected. So now, a year and a half later, I am about as opposite as it comes to some of this stuff. It's still a little difficult to admit that I've gone through depression and am on medication just to be functional, but at the same time, going through therapy (with the very best doctor in the entire world! ) is the best thing I have ever done in my entire life. It's good for me as a person and for my life, it's good for me as a parent and for my kids, it's good for my husband and our marriage, and it's good for any and every person I meet each and every day. If only I had known to get help years ago. But at least I did it now.

But this means that now I am faced with having to unravel some of the problems that were created in past years with my own kids. It's not easy. I have no examples to follow. I certainly can't do what my parents did, and while I've read 100 parenting books and understand the "rules" of parenting (my doctor's partner even said he could write a book on my knowledge of parenting), figuring out how to use that information to go from where my kids are at this point to where they need to go is not at all an easy task. I have to balance showing them how loved they are with being firm as a parent while simultaneously changing former bad habits, bad attitudes, forming new trust while also learning how to deal with their ADD (older daughter), ADHD (younger daughter), ODD (older daughter no longer exhibits ODD behaviors while younger daughter is increasingly showing signs of ODD behavior), my own depression (I'm getting much better! ), my social phobia (I used to be afraid to go out in my own front yard or roll down the windows in my car -- hence my long standing internet activity -- but that's greatly improving ), my older daughter's social phobia (we've just pulled her out of school, and she's being placed into the "homebound" program under "Special Education, Emotionally Disabled") and more. I've completely severed all communication with my parents (my mother threw me out of the house, put my stuff in storage and mailed me the key when I finally told her about my father molesting me (this was after my father admitted that he had indeed molested me) and my father shows absolutely no remorse for what he did; instead he is angry that I dared to tell on him -- my parents are very mentally ill).

I go to therapy twice a week, an hour each visit. $300/hr. My older daughter sees the same doctor I see, once each week for an hour. My younger daughter sees a different therapist in the same group (can't remember her price, but she's not as expensive, but also not as experienced). My doctor is actually a psychiatrist who is the clinical director for a psychiatric hospital and the medical director for a treatment center PLUS does therapy in the evening. He also serves on many mental health boards as does his wife, sometimes in the position of president or chairman. He is very passionate about helping people and is absolutely unbelievably consistent and calm and extremely intelligent and experienced while doing things that I believe are way beyond what most doctors would do while being very firm at keeping the patient/doctor boundaries strong and never crossed. He is always very respectful, never makes me feel belittled or guilty, while he explains to me things such as how the brain functions and the development of the brain and how my childhood affected my development. Part of my therapy involves "integration" which he says will leave me with a little version of him running around inside of me (yes, that sounds bizarre! LOL!). He says this is what normally happens to a baby between the ages of birth to 1 year with its mother, but because my mother just threw me in a crib and walked away, it never happened for me, and while it feels very awkward and somewhat embarrassing to go through this at my age of 45 because I am actually going through some of the stages a baby goes through with a parent with him, at the same time, I can also feel the difference it's making inside of me.

Sometimes it's mind-boggling to even comprehend it all. So I continue to remind myself of my friend's question: "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." So today, my depression is much better; I am functional again. My social phobia and many of the fears are getting better. I still PTSD in schools (I was badly bullied throughout my school years -- I never asked for help because I thought I deserved it since that's all I knew from my home life), but my doctor is helping me by personally attending any really important meetings with the school regarding my older daughter and his wife who is a psychiatric nurse and an absolutely wonderful support is available to help me anytime I need; she will come and be with me the entire time I need her with me at the schools.

When this is all done, I think I will return to college and actually study psychology. I wish I was younger and had more time to focus more on the actual brain itself, but that would require medical school, and since I've only completed half of my undergraduate studies in college, I don't think I'd have enough time to go through the full process of medical school, residency, and then actually get to work in a field studying the brain. But I do think I can get a PhD in psychology with enough time to actually DO something with it. And to think that I used to think the entire field of psychology was nothing but quackery! LOL! What a change this has made in me!

So... if there is any parent out there reading this and you have had an abusive childhood, get help. Even if you think you're okay and don't need help, the fact is it HAS affected you, and it will come out in ways you don't even know. And it WILL affect you as a parent, and your kids will pay the price. Dysfunctional parents raise dysfunctional children who grow up to raise more dysfunctional children, and the cycle continues until someone finally screams STOP and gets help. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your children, your husband, and for everyone you come in contact with because it DOES affect every part of your being. You just don't know it because the way you are is all you have ever known so it seems perfectly normal. It was my love for my children that caused me to get help. My only regret is not knowing sooner and getting help sooner. True therapy is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life, but it's also the best thing you will ever do for your life.

Okay, enough rambling.

[gsprague]

If you are using remote desktop you can just lock the computer down from ARD. Just turn access off in ARD for any clients past a certian time. You don't even have to shut the machine down. However if she reboots the machine iit may override.

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by CAlvarez After you solve the technology issue, how will you address the underlying parenting issue which is going to become harder and harder to deal with as she matures?

This is actually a HUGE question. But the simple answer is YES. Absolutely YES.

Everything seemed okay with my kids in their younger years, except that my older daughter never seemed to be able to take on any form of responsibility. This affected her at home and at school. As she continued in school, her lack of responsibility began affecting her grades, and me, not understanding what was going on (ADD), I just got harder and harder on her. Punishments increased with absolutely no affect. I even grounded her, at a teacher's suggestion, from EVERYTHING until she raised her grades to passing only to have her continue to fail and not get herself off the grounding for 4 full months which ended only because school ended. Tell me, what child will ever endure that kind of punishment and STILL not raise her grades when she is well above average in intelligence? It baffled me to no end, and I accused her of being lazy and not caring about her future. (See above message about my upbringing to explain my response.)

When she entered high school, two weeks into the 9th grade, she started claiming she had a stomach ache and couldn't go to school. After two days of this (with no signs of distress while she stayed at home), her father and I agreed that she was going to school the next day, stomach ache or no stomach ache. That was when she showed me that she was cutting herself. She had been cutting her arms and legs. I was horrified.

Still, I didn't quite understand the full implication of what was going on. She promised she had done it only one time, and I, being far too ignorant at the time, believed her. Upon checking her school work, I discovered that she had not done ANY of her work at all so I then contacted her counselor and teachers to work out a plan to catch her up. She worked endlessly for 10 days, but got it all caught up. I thought the "big emergency" was over.

A few weeks later, her school counselor called to say she had received a tip that my daughter was planning to run away to meet up with a boy she had befriended on the internet. My world fell apart.

Ignorance be damned. I immediately checked her computer and found his address and directions to his house (in another state). I also found that this boy was in a mental hospital, bipolar, and claimed to be a satanist. And most frightening of all, my daughter was in contact with college age people who were willing to help her get to this boy -- which meant they had the money and ability to transport her. I came completely unglued. I then checked every nook and cranny in her room. Fortunately, absolutely no signs of substance abuse, but I did find and read her journals and diaries which then told the story of her life that she had never told anyone. What I now understand was a result of ADD, my daughter talked about her failures. She started out in early childhood, hoping to do well at something, only to fail. By the time she was a teenager, she believed she could not succeed at anything to the point that even when something was going right, she knew it was only a matter of time before she screwed it up and failed. What I now understand is she was dealing with undiagnosed ADD "inattentive type" which caused her to be unable to keep up with following through with school work and homework. Hence, she would do great on tests, but kept getting zeros for missing work which caused her to continuously fail. Since she had no idea she had ADD and she could never "fix" her problem on her own, she grew to believe that she was a failure. The pressure mounting, she began to cut herself. Fortunately, the school she's in is EXCELLENT and the school psychologist and counselor advised me to get her into therapy.

What we also did not know is she has social phobia. I also have it, and there is a genetic link to it. What we thought was "cute" in her younger years (like when she would hold up her younger sister to talk to people for her), we now know were the early signs of her social phobia. This is also why she never told us anything about what was really going on in her life. She simply never talked to anyone about anything of any importance. It was all locked up inside of her which is another reason why she used cutting as her outlet.

My first response was to protect her. NO internet satanist bipolar boyfriend! Passwords on everything! Change the house alarm to a code she doesn't know so she can't run away at night without us knowing it! Track her very closely if she did go out with anyone! Control! Control! Control! What did it get me? An extremely angry and defiant child. And me, having no therapy yet, kept pushing her more and more with threats about how her life will be in the gutter, she'll be living on the streets, etc. Oh, yes, that really helped. NOT. It only helped her to be more angry and afraid and to cut more.

She was absolutely unresponsive to therapy. Would not talk to her therapist. Went through 2 different therapists with no affect whatsoever. By this time, I had become so distraught that I had began to become depressed "situational depression" which is how I met my doctor -- for medications. In the basic history interview, he found out about my childhood and knew I needed help even though I had no clue. And in his very wise way, he helped lead me into understanding that I needed help. Eventually, I agreed to enter therapy.

I worked hard in my therapy, but my daughter continued to be unresponsive. I realized that this was getting bigger and bigger and that my younger daughter would become the "lost child" so I put her in therapy to help her with all that was going on at home to be sure she had support. At the time, she was doing well -- in fact, a little TOO well. She was playing the "hero child" roll. As a "lost child/hero child" myself, I knew the signs and wanted to be sure she did not put too much on her own self to be a little adult when she was still a child.

Things got more and more explosive with my older daughter to the point she was openly defiant and out of control. We had talked to her about Wilderness Camp many times and had given her a few very clear rules as to how she could avoid going. But by the time she finished 9th grade, she made it clear everything we were doing was not working. We switched her to see the same doctor I was seeing, and he gave us some excellent advice. While my daughter was in finals at school, I was finalizing the paperwork for her Wilderness Camp. A day before her plane was to take off, we told her she was going, and she ran out of the house. She finally came back home, but we feared she would be physically resistant to getting on the plane so for a whopping $5,000 we hired escorts to take her (this is a common service for this purpose). They came, took her without force, stayed with her on the plane, and never left her until she was in the hands of the people at the Wilderness Camp. It was extremely scary for me, especially because of my concerns of sexual abuse. But we had no other choice.

While she was at camp, we worked very hard on how to handle things when she got home. I've mentioned earlier what we did. Our plans worked very well. Part of our plans had to include allowing her to hit "rock bottom." One thing about people and therapy. They do not reach out for help and truly participate in therapy unless something really BIG has made them desperate enough that they'll do ANYTHING for help. So what do you do when a teenager absolutely refuses therapy? Allow her to feel the full impact of her own actions. Some call it natural consequences. Part of this included allowing her to fail at school. We did not require her to do homework. We allowed her to play on the computer as much as she wanted. During this entire time, we removed all pressures from her and just loved her. We loved her when she stunk from not taking showers. We loved her even when she was failing. We found anything and everything she was doing good and praised her for it. And with my therapy, I learned to stop raging and was much more calm. We allowed her to be in contact with her satanic internet boyfriend (whom I had hired a private detective to confirm he was a boy and not a predator), and because I monitored her computer activity, I knew he was actually harmless. I even went so far as to mirror her fantasy of them getting married by telling her that if he was her choice for her husband, we would accept him into our family with open arms. We told her we accepted her choice of being a satanist, even though we did not agree with it, but as she grows into adulthood we won't always agree with everything she chooses (as she may not always agree with our choices), but we will respect her choices and still love her. I truly understand the meaning of unconditional love.

At first, she thought she had died and gone to heaven! But as the first semester came close to ending, she then began to panic about her grades. FINALLY she stopped blaming everyone else and began to take real responsibility for her own actions. And rather than having US tell her how this would affect her future, SHE began to become very afraid of her own future. Which caused her to do exactly what we wanted. She crashed so hard that she finally began to squeak out the first few words to ask for help. Through that, we discovered her social phobia, and her doctor took immediate steps to place her into the homebound program.

This child, who a year ago was so angry all her journal writings were about how to kill me (to the point, I was truly afraid), is now talking to me about her emotions and asking me to help her bring up subjects with her doctor so he can help her with them. She is calm, not cutting, no longer angry, very respectful of the rules in our home, and is accepting me back into her life as the role of a loving mother that she so much needs.

We still have a long road ahead of us with her, but we've finally turned the corner and the future looks very promising. I believe we will get through all of this, she will finish high school, and be able to do well in college. I'm so glad we did this NOW when most kids crash when they finally get away from their parents and go to college because most parents cannot and will not allow their kids to fail in high school. But if you find that YOU are the one more concerned about your child's grades than the child, then it's time to back off and let the child take over. If they're going to crash, do it when they are still under your roof and still legally under your care.

Yikes! My reply was too long! Part II below...

[vickishome]

Part II now...

So now comes younger daughter. She's stopped playing the hero/lost child role, and she's begun making some noise herself. Yikes! Just as I get one child on the right road, the other starts to act up. Part of this is normal teenage rebellion and hormones. She's 13, and you know what that means hormonally with girls. But I also think she's trying to get attention. Plus, mixed in with it all is her ADHD and her misguided belief that the world revolves around her and only her (which is my fault).

She has been very close to me until very recently. In early November, we allowed her to visit her best friend who had moved to another state. The day before she was to return home, I left to go to a 3 week stay at a treatment center (not for substance abuse, but to deal with my anger at my parents and my social phobia). While I was gone, my younger daughter re-enacted my older daughter's behavior to the letter. She took 2 knives to school and scratched her skin (did not actually cut herself) and told her friends she was cutting. She even wrote journals that were just like her older sister's (except these were brand new, not from several years like her sister). Of course, someone reported the knives, and she got into huge trouble at school. She was immediately suspended and then sent to a special Behavioral Learning Center school for a month. This is what I came home to from my treatment center (it was discussed and agreed to not tell me the details of what was going on while I was at the treatment center, and I agree everyone did the right thing).

Ever since then, she has been more and more defiant regarding the rules. She's always pressed the rules and has been passively defiant. But she's becoming more openly defiant now. Her grades are becoming very bad. She's not doing her chores. She disregarding the rules. And she talks back when we speak to her. This is a mixture of old behavior and new behavior, but it's increasing strongly.

Part of the problem is the influence of her older sister. Her sister's needs do not match her needs, and it's difficult to treat two children so differently at the same time. When my older daughter was placed on homebound, she was told to stay home immediately even though the paperwork had not yet gone through and we didn't have any actual work for her to work on yet. No Special Ed teachers were assigned. No tutors yet. Nothing. Since she has been really glued to an online game called Runescape, her doctor decided to let her have her fill of it, knowing that everything looses its luster when you've had too much of it. So he advised us to allow her to play the game 24/7. All she wanted. No restrictions whatsoever. Once again, my older daughter thought she was in sheer heaven! No school work, no bedtimes, and no computer curfew! Wow!! But just as predicted, the game has become somewhat boring to her now. Playing that game hour after hour after hour for several weeks has grown boring. It's taking the thrill out of it. She started out staying up all night, going to bed at 7am and waking up in the afternoon. But after a few weeks of that, she then decided (ON HER OWN!!) she wanted to turn her schedule around. Now she's going to sleep at 9:30pm and waking up around 7:30am. She did that. All on her own. I am so very thrilled and proud!

While my younger daughter was at the "other" school, she was not allowed to have any homework. So she developed a habit of coming home and playing. She was not allowed to take anything to or from the school (highly restricted because weapons, drugs, etc.). I couldn't get a real handle on how her grades were going because everything kept coming back with "incomplete" because her work had to be transferred back and forth between her real school and this "other" school so the teachers had to assign and grade her work separately from the normal class schedule. When she finally returned to her real school, I noticed she wasn't doing homework. But when I inquired, she claimed she had done it at school. Uh huh. I wasn't buying that story, but I waited and watched.

Sure enough, I finally got a real progress report, and it isn't pretty. Several failing grades with comments of "missing major projects, missing/incomplete assignments." Doing it at school? Right. Sure. I thought not.

So now I have two kids who are absolutely hooked on this stupid runescape game on the computer. The very first thing they do when they wake up is go to the computer. They will even RUN to the bathroom and back to not miss anything on that game. Which brings me to where I am now...

My first job is to control the computer usage. With my older daughter, she is obeying the rules so I know she will get off the computer when she is told. She knows if she begins to break our curfew rules, she will face consequences that are worse than what happens when she simply obeys the curfews. When she finally gets set up with a tutor and her homebound schoolwork (which is almost set up now), her computer time will be highly restricted. She will spend most of her day doing school work.

As far as my younger daughter is concerned, being able to shut down the computer automatically is excellent. It worked very well last night. We overheard her tell her boyfriend on the phone 4 minutes before shutdown time that she only had 4 minutes left (even thought Mac Minder gives the warning 2 minutes before time). So she IS watching the clock and very aware of the time. I knew she could do it! Also, being able to send her instant messages and instantly locking her out remotely will teach her to get her chores done ON TIME. If she's in a battle in the game and gets locked out, so be it. It is HER job to watch the time and ensure she isn't in a battle when it's time for chores, not mine. If she dies in a battle, that's HER choice, not mine. All I do is enforce the rules. And now I can do it without any argument or physical battles. I just sit at my PowerBook, send her a message, watch her "live" with the screen shots, and if I see she has not stopped playing on the computer, I simply lock her out. And I will unlock her once she has completed her work. If she is defiant, she may receive an extra "computer time out" penalty of being locked out for extra time after her chores are completed.

As time goes on, I can then keep the computer locked out later and later in the day so she cannot get on it the instant she wakes up in the morning or when she comes home from school which will both break those bad habits and redirect her to do her homework and chores FIRST.

As far as her back-talking, I simply set her straight when she does it. I stay calm and don't yell, but at the same time, I don't take it. I know how to use a firm, but not angry, voice. I am able to love her, be proud of her, and treat her with respect while simultaneously maintaining my position as her parent. I am very analytical by nature, and my doctor has told me that I've really come a long way and have actually become a bit of a mini-therapist in how I'm handling the kids. I encourage them to speak about how they feel and talk with them about why certain rules are as they are (and that even *I* don't always like applying them, but I know it is my job as a parent to apply them, and I love them enough to BE a parent). I also know how to use "nonetheless, regardless, etc." the rule still stands and not get into a battle of the wills or allow them to engage me into a strategic battle of the details. I can hear their thoughts and feelings, empathize with them, let them know I've heard them and empathize with them, but remain firm that the rule still stands.

So how will I handle the problem? One bite at a time. It's a very complex mixture of many things with the computer issue being only one part of it. It is simply a tool I can use to resolve a problem in a non-confrontational manner.

I know my kids, and I know my younger daughter will not openly try to defeat the software. But if I'm wrong, I'm ready to handle it. As I continue to remind her... it's a dance, and she's in the lead. I will follow her wherever she takes me. I will never give up or leave her side. I will be tough when I must be while loving her every inch of the way. And I will always be there for her when she needs me. But I truly do love her enough to do what I must do FOR HER which includes teaching her to follow the rules and get her work done. She can hate me and be mad at me, it's okay. I can take it. Because I know she truly loves me. And I know what I am doing is the right thing for her. This is what a parent does for their children.

My parents told me at the age of 14 that they considered me an adult in their eyes which meant I could do anything I wanted. Their excuse? They said this would allow me to "practice" being an adult while I was still young enough for them to legally get me out of jail. What an absolute cop out! They did not want to be parents. It's WORK to be a parent. Me? I'm more than ready and willing to do the job. Whatever it takes.

So the short answer to the question... what will I do with the underlying parenting issue? Whatever I must do. Anything and everything. And never, ever give up. My children are worth that and so much more. My children are worth everything. But most of all, work as hard as I can in my own therapy so I can be the best person, and therefore, the best parent I can possibly be.

Does that answer the question? May the groans begin. LOL!

[vickishome]

Quote: Originally Posted by gsprague If you are using remote desktop you can just lock the computer down from ARD. Just turn access off in ARD for any clients past a certian time. You don't even have to shut the machine down. However if she reboots the machine iit may override.

Mac Minder doesn't actually do a shut down. It appears to do nothing more than put up a screen saver that requires a password to remove. Which is actually very good because it means she can allow her programs to continue to work while she's gone which I have no problem with.

So far, I'm really liking Mac Minder. In fact, I just checked, and she's not at the computer yet. So I just manually locked her out. She can get on AFTER she's cleaned up her room. I like this flexibility and ease of control. It's turning out to be a very efficient tool for a parent like me who simply needs to get a computer obsessed kid to get off the computer!

Speaking of which... this computer obsessed mom has yardwork calling my name.

[vickishome]

Excellent! While I was typing earlier, my husband was working things out with my younger daughter that she would stop playing on the computer and clean her room at 2pm. So I reset the time to lock her out at 2pm. And sure enough, Mac Minder locked her out at 2pm!

She just came running out begging for "just one minute" to do something on her game because she hadn't noticed the time. I agreed to allow it ONLY THIS ONE TIME. About 30 seconds later, she came back saying she was done and THANKED ME for giving her that extra 30 seconds.

Ah, yes, this is how it should be. Instead of her giving me excuses as to why she's not doing her work, she's thanking me for allowing her an extra 30 seconds.

Mac Minder, I think I love you!