wow, is this the normal temp for G4 powerbooks?

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne Normal users do not need to know about the internal temperatures of their machines. Thus Apple does not make the temperature data easily accessible - it would just be one more thing for users to worry about.

From what I am reading in the forum, people are worried about it. People that sell cooler plates, FANs, etc... will do their best to make sure that the normal users are worried about it. Time to start a poll on this topic.

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne But it is hardly hidden - the means for accessing the built-in temperature sensors is documented by Apple (the IOKit docs) and the data is easily accessible to developers, hence the 3rd-party apps that display it.

I am not a developer, but I would like it accessible to me, a normal user. Without a 3rd-party apps, how do I do this? Windows has this built into the BIOS where you can change the setting to warn or shut down if the temperature gets to hot. I should be able to do this on my Apple machine.

Can a warning and shut down procedure be implemented if the CPU temperature gets to hot with one of these 3rd party apps? If so, then it might be worth while to purchase since you may actually be preventing damage to the CPU and other computer components.

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne There is no big conspiracy to hide information from the user - Apple merely supplies the info that it thinks most users will need to know. But if you were referring to overclocking, then of course Apple wants to discourage that - Apple wants the machines to be used in the manner for which they were designed.

I will start another thread with a Poll. How many people would like to know the temperature of their CPU in operation?

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne Umm, these temperature sensors are Apple's temperature sensors, not 3rd-party ones. They are the sensors that the hardware uses to determine when to turn on the fans. There are no other temperature sensors - that is all there is.

Thanks for the clarification, these are Apple temperature sensors and not 3rd party developer temperature sensors. I just hope that Apple gives the proper formula for calculating temperature differences of these CPUs.

thx
RLC

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by styrafome Just curious...does a PowerBook's CPU speed actually rise and fall based on the current temperature? If we stuck an air conditioner next to a PowerBook, could it go faster than the rating on the box (my 1.25 GHz, for instance)? Or is "runs faster when cooler" merely a theoretical advantage for PowerBooks?

With a lower temperature, you can substained clock cycles longer than if your CPU is running at a hotter temperatures. Clock cycles heat up the chip rapidly and thus causes the clock cycle to scale back until it is ok to go through another cycle upswing. So to answer your question, it will run faster if the system is cooler.

thx
RLC

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net I am not a developer, but I would like it accessible to me, a normal user. Without a 3rd-party apps, how do I do this? Windows has this built into the BIOS where you can change the setting to warn or shut down if the temperature gets to hot. I should be able to do this on my Apple machine.

Actually this is not done by Micro$oft but rather by your motherboard manufacture and still some motherboards come without this feature, it merely depends on how new your PC motherboard is and from which manafacture your purchased it from

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net I will start another thread with a Poll. How many people would like to know the temperature of their CPU in operation?

this would be best done on the apple.com forum since Apple staff will be most likely to see such a discussion there, you can access it (registration is free) here: http://discussions.info.apple.com/

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by maclova this would be best done on the apple.com forum since Apple staff will be most likely to see such a discussion there, you can access it (registration is free) here: http://discussions.info.apple.com/

With summer right around the corner, this is probably not the best place to discuss this issue, but it is definitely a good place to discuss these kinds of issues. The outside temperature in most climates will easily exceed 35'C. Someone could be using their power book at the park, zoo, national parks, picnic, etc... in this kind of heat during the summer time and not even be aware that they are damaging their system. 35'C is approximate 95F and I don't think that anyone would disagree that it will at least get this hot this summer.

I think that we all learned something in these kind of exchanges.

thx
RLC

[styrafome]

We have learned a lot...

...except, if there really is a significant concern with Apple's cooling scheme, we still don't have evidence that massive waves of aging PowerBooks fail every summer or in tropical countries.

[hayne]

I think the 35 C is the upper limit of the ambient temperature that is recommended for use of a PowerBook (I haven't checked the specs myself).
So if you use it in an area where the ambient temperature exceeds 35 C, you are using outside of the recommended operating region and thus might damage your machine.

But otherwise, I believe that Apple has engineered the machines to keep their internal temperatures within a safe range by judicious use of the fans. The internal temperature sensors are there so that the fans know when to come on.

As I said above, Apple doesn't supply a program to inform users of the internal temperatures since there is no need for them to know (and worry) about these temperatures. If you really need to know, then use one of the 3rd-party utilities. And Apple doesn't want users to be fiddling with the cooling system parameters, hence they don't supply a way to change them. Apple knows best - and I'm not being sarcastic.
Do you ask Ford to allow you to modify the relationship between brake-pad pressure and brake performance?

One reason why you might see such things in Windows is that the hardware is so disparate - you never know what other system components are going to be used with your motherboard. But Apple controls all the hardware and software and so can make better decisions.

[roncross@cox.net]

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showth...126#post210126

Please show your support and vote in the poll. All answers related to the poll should be addressed on that thread.

thx
RLC

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne I think the 35 C is the upper limit of the ambient temperature that is recommended for use of a PowerBook (I haven't checked the specs myself). So if you use it in an area where the ambient temperature exceeds 35 C, you are using outside of the recommended operating region and thus might damage your machine.

You are correct, 35'C is the upper limit, This is based off the case temperature. The case is what the actual CPU is packaged in. The whole point about 35'C is that if you are in an environment where the ambient temperature exceeds 35'C, you will NOT be able to remove the heat faster than it is being generated thus damaging your system. This all of course depends on CPU load. This is analogous to filling up a bath tub with the drain plug open; the drain plug is analogous to your FANS. How high or low you turn up the facet is your CPU load. If you have the facet on low (low CPU load), the drain will be able to remove the water fast enough so that the bath tub doesn't fill up. If you turn up the facet to high (high CPU load), the water will eventually leak out because it is not draining off faster than it is being filled. This same analogy applies to the heat in your system.

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne If you really need to know, then use one of the 3rd-party utilities.

Actually I remember now, when I first bought my system, I used one of these temperature reading programs, but it doesn't work for some powerpc model. In fact it doesn't work for the powerpc on my powerbook. Hence, I have no option of finding out how hot or cold I am running. I have no choice but to trust Apple in this case or to do what is necessary to keep my system as cool as possible.

I would strongly caution you in trusting these 3rd-party utilities. Here are some words off MBS: temperature monitor website.

http://www.bresink.de/osx/TemperatureMonitor.html

This is taken right off of their own web site:
Please note that Apple does not support an official or standardized way of reading out sensor data in Mac OS X (the only exception is the Server Monitor application for the Xserve series). Moreover, there is no documentation or other technical note about the individual function of the sensors. For this reason, the development of Temperature Monitor and Hardware Monitor is very costly because the necessary data has to be determined by reverse engineering and tests run on a variety of computer models. Please support the development of the applications by purchasing a registration key for Hardware Monitor.

Quote: Originally Posted by hayne Apple knows best - and I'm not being sarcastic. Do you ask Ford to allow you to modify the relationship between brake-pad pressure and brake performance?

Brake-pad pressure and performance can be a life or death situation. There are standards/codes that have to be applied to here. I don't believe that this is the same thing about wanting to know the temperature of your CPU. Knowing the temperature of your CPU has nothing to do a life or death situation. Knowing the CPU temperature just give me more information in case I want to think differently about how I use my machine. What is wrong with more information?

I will try and summarize what this thread is addressing:

1.) Apple doesn't tell us what the CPU temperature is.
2.) Apple doesn't give guideline for 3rd party developers to know how to calculate the CPU temperatures reliably.
3.)Apple does give guideline for users max ambient temperature of 35'C.
4.)3rd party Temperature reading applications maybe unreliable and can cause you worry unnecessarily.
5.) Fans kick on about 50-55'C case temperature.
6.) You really don't know when your machine is running too hot unless you experience some kind of instability such as shut down, reduced speed in running applications, kernel panic, etc...
7.) If you want your machine to last longer and run faster, use a cooler plate or some other technique to keep the temperature low.

thx
RLC

[Caius]

I've been using my 12" pb for about 35 minutes now, it was just sat with the display off for about 6 hours before that. I've been websurfing with iTunes playing, mail, adium, quicktime, colloquy, terminal, ARD, software update open.

Just launched Temperature Monitor oh a whim, and Lo and Behold, it shows my CPU temp as 52.8°C / 127°F. It is sat on a heatproof cutting resistant drawing board surface. Still didn't expect it to be this hot quite as quickly. The fan is on half speed I think, or even less than that.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net If you are concerned about heat and at 55'C you should be, use a cooler plate and see if that reduces the temperature for you while you are playing your games. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/directron/nbcooler.html thx RLC

Unfortunetly I only have $20 to spend at this time ...know of any good cooler plates for powerbook g4 laptops (or that'll just work with them in general) that I can buy with my $20 budget without sacrificing quality or reliability? any help is greatly appreciated. thanks!

[hayne]

Quote: Originally Posted by maclova Unfortunetly I only have $20 to spend at this time ...know of any good cooler plates for powerbook g4 laptops (or that'll just work with them in general) that I can buy with my $20 budget without sacrificing quality or reliability?

I've heard of some people using ordinary freezer packs ($1-$2 at department stores or supermarkets) under a PowerBook. Of course you need to figure out some way to make it a stable platform, and you need to re-freeze them after a few hours - but it does make for good cooling.

[CAlvarez]

I have four of them, they all work, the choice is just dependent on the features you want and where you want to blow the air. I have a Targus Coolpad with a USB hub, and a similar one without the hub. Those blow air down and out the back through a slot. Cooling is ok. Fans are silent. I use the hubbed one at the office when docked. The hubless one is for use on the couch.

I have one from Fry's Electronics which is branded "Vantec" but I've seen it sold under other names. It blows air from the bottom to the top, exiting around the notebook's underside. Cooling is excellent. It has variable fan speeds. It is barely audible at full speed, and silent at 1/2 while still cooling about as well as the Targus models. The downside to this one is that you can't set it down on a couch or flat on your legs because the air is drawn from the bottom. Works find on any hard surface.

I have a plastic angled one from Computergeeks.com (no brand) which is unusable on your legs, but good on any hard surface, and angles the notebook. Makes a bit of noise, not terrible. Pass-through USB connector so you don't lose your port. I don't use this one any more.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by CAlvarez I have four of them, they all work, the choice is just dependent on the features you want and where you want to blow the air. I have a Targus Coolpad with a USB hub, and a similar one without the hub. Those blow air down and out the back through a slot. Cooling is ok. Fans are silent. I use the hubbed one at the office when docked. The hubless one is for use on the couch. I have one from Fry's Electronics which is branded "Vantec" but I've seen it sold under other names. It blows air from the bottom to the top, exiting around the notebook's underside. Cooling is excellent. It has variable fan speeds. It is barely audible at full speed, and silent at 1/2 while still cooling about as well as the Targus models. The downside to this one is that you can't set it down on a couch or flat on your legs because the air is drawn from the bottom. Works find on any hard surface. I have a plastic angled one from Computergeeks.com (no brand) which is unusable on your legs, but good on any hard surface, and angles the notebook. Makes a bit of noise, not terrible. Pass-through USB connector so you don't lose your port. I don't use this one any more.

looked up Targus Coolpad on Froogle.com: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...Search+Froogle and it seems very affordable, even within my budget , just would like to know, are you happy with its cooling and is the fan(s) loud or quiet? oh and one last thing (sorry for all the questions ), if you don't mind could you please link me to one of the Targus Coolpads listed in the Froogle results or elsewhere that you'd recommend I get for my 12 inch PowerBook G4? thanks!

[CAlvarez]

Cooling is ok. Fans are silent.

Sorry, it wasn't the Coolpad, that I have, it's the Chillpad.

http://www1.bottomdollar.com/rating_...67/id_type=M//

That's the one without the USB hub in it.

[maclova]

ah hub isn't a problem since I actually have a small 4 port usb hub I can hook it up to , found a good price on it here: http://www.4cost.com/product_info.php?products_id=32267 , will be buying it tonight

[maclova]

update, shipping on that site was too much so I instead ordered it from here: http://froogle.google.com/froogle_ur...elUAAAAAAAAAAA - however picture and description is a little worrying...think they are just off and I'll get the cooling pad CAlvarez? The title suggests that is what is being sold...the picture and description just seems a bit odd for the item....

[maclova]

well after comparing the item I ordered to the item you linked me to it seems I ordered the right thing, just the picture and description is a bit odd, but the manufacture # is the same so that must mean it is indeed the Chillpad ...just, you're happy with it overall right? after reading some of the reviews it seems somewhat worrisome but I'm sure if you're happy with it I will be too since we're both mac users and most of the reviews were done by PC laptop users if not all of them

[maclova]

(btw if other mac users here have or do use this product then posting their experience (specifically are you happy with it overall?) is appreciated too)

[CAlvarez]

I don't know what else I could say about it. I think I covered it pretty well above. I liked it enough to buy a second one without the hub to use on the couch.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by CAlvarez I don't know what else I could say about it. I think I covered it pretty well above. I liked it enough to buy a second one without the hub to use on the couch.

alright, thanks for all your help as it has been greatly appreciated , can't wait to get it as hopefully this will allow me to safely play my legal N64 ROMs and other 3D games