wow, is this the normal temp for G4 powerbooks?

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by styrafome Are you really sure about the 50C danger zone? Where is the document tha states that?

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....1.1.1.0.0.1.0

Once you are at this site, go all the way down to the bottom right where it reads, "PowerBook G4 technical specifications." click on this link and look at the part where it talks about operating temperature.

thx
RLC

[maclova]

today when I woke up my powerbook was no longer in sleep but rather out of sleep with a blank screen and unresponsive with the fan up all the way...this really worries me since I wasn't doing anything that drives up the processor temperature and having a laptop in sleep certainly shouldn't cause this ...all 'n all I'm starting to wonder if it'd be best just to downgrade to MacOS X Panther until they fix the resource issues with Tiger for laptops as it seems to be causing me and many others problems

[RebelGood]

After reading this thread I installed Temperature Monitor on my iBook G4, 10.4.1, and it shows a Processor Bottomside temp of 162.5° F when running on the AC adapter. The fan is not on. Should I be concerned?

[cwtnospam]

Quote: Originally Posted by RebelGood After reading this thread I installed Temperature Monitor on my iBook G4, 10.4.1, and it shows a Processor Bottomside temp of 162.5° F when running on the AC adapter. The fan is not on. Should I be concerned?

Has it been recalled?
http://www.local6.com/technology/4511485/detail.html

[RebelGood]

No, and the battery temp is not the problem.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by RebelGood After reading this thread I installed Temperature Monitor on my iBook G4, 10.4.1, and it shows a Processor Bottomside temp of 162.5° F when running on the AC adapter. The fan is not on. Should I be concerned?

yes you should be, the processor becomes unstable and may burn out at that temperature, if it continues at that temperature I'd take it to a Apple tech asap (btw turning off the sleep during the screensaver worked perfectly )

[styrafome]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....1.1.1.0.0.1.0 Once you are at this site, go all the way down to the bottom right where it reads, "PowerBook G4 technical specifications." click on this link and look at the part where it talks about operating temperature.

There are a couple problems here. First, the link gives me an error page because "the link is expired" which indicates that it was for a personalized AppleStore session, and I'm not you so it doesn't work. I did go to the Tech Specs page for the PowerBook G4 under Hardware.

Second problem: I see the Operating Temperature specs on the Tech Specs page. I am under the impression that "operating temperature" does not refer to the temperature of the internal components, but of the ambient temperature outside the unit. I see that Apple lists a range of 50 to 95 degrees F. Who's got a PowerBook CPU that stops at 95F? That has got to refer to the ambient temperature, otherwise someone still owes me an explanation as to why my 135F PowerBooks are still alive after half a decade.

Also, to clarify, my PB does not hit 135 out of the gate. As my other post noted, it starts at room temperature and climbs, as it should.

As far as the other post saying theirs goes to 162F, I'd be worried about that, I've never seen mine go that high!

[derekhed]

I'll just toss in my $.02 here: I have had my 1.33 15" G4 Powerbook for just about a year now and monitor the temperature constantly using XResourceGraph. It bobs around 130°F, and has gone as high as 143°F or so as I recall if I am recharging the battery. This activity always generates a lot of heat.

The fans come on at around 135°F or so, though rarely I have ever heard the system ramp the fans up full speed (there seems to be two levels to the fans), but only halfway. If the fans go to high-speed, I do something immediately to reduce the heat (like take the laptop off the blanket it is sitting on!). I actually made a small pad to sit the machine on if I don't have a nice thermally-conductive surface to use. This pad leaves a 5 mm space (sorry to mix units of measure here guys) beneath the laptop for air flow.

I have never had a kernel panic on this machine.

Are the high-speed fans coming on for anyone?

[Juz10mac]

I've noticed that the fan has been running more on my iBook after installing Tiger, but maybe it's just because it is getting to be summer over here in Texas. Normally, I keep my iBook on my desk and, due to the lack of ventilation, the bottom side of the iBook can get pretty hot at times. Just today I built a little stand (two thin boards) that I set my iBook across to keep a gap under it. I covered the boards with cloth, so my iBook doesn't get a splinter, and I haven't heard the fan come on since. I think Tiger must not let the processor idle as much, or it just simply gives it more to do, not that that would necessarily be a bad thing.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by derekhed Are the high-speed fans coming on for anyone?

They do for me when ever I play a legal N64 ROM in sixtyforce (I own the games I have ROMs for) so I deleted the ROMs and emulator since it caused the processor to gain alot of heat (up to 135F )

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by styrafome I see the Operating Temperature specs on the Tech Specs page. I am under the impression that "operating temperature" does not refer to the temperature of the internal components, but of the ambient temperature outside the unit. I see that Apple lists a range of 50 to 95 degrees F. Who's got a PowerBook CPU that stops at 95F? That has got to refer to the ambient temperature, otherwise someone still owes me an explanation as to why my 135F PowerBooks are still alive after half a decade.

From Apple web site: Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)

What really troubles me is that Apple doesn't mention anything about the critical temperature of their CPU leaving it to speculation what is safe and what is dangerous. Why don't Apple just put temperature sensors on their processor, most other manufacturer do. Even Intel and AMD processor has options to set warning and shutdown if the processor temperature get too hot. So 50'C is just coming from experience with other processors that I have worked with and from some reliability data that I have looked at. The number may be 50'C or 55'C, but I am probably not to far off.


Yes, you are correct that the operating temperature spec is the temperature outside the unit. As I stated before, there are reliability studies that they do on these processor to guarantee that they last for at least 10 years under a certain applied voltage. So you will just have to wait another 4-5 years to see if this is the case for you.

I don't think you are getting my point. My point is that the hotter your CPU runs, the sooner it will fail. The cooler it runs the longer it will last. If you want to extend the life of your CPU, then removing the heat from the system is the key!! If you are always running with the CPU loaded, a cooler plate is just something to consider to extend the life of your CPU. If you don't think it is necessary, then keep doing what you are doing.

50-55'C is a cause for concern only in the sense that if your computer is unable to remove the heat faster than the heat is being generated, you are damaging the CPU. I am certain that the FANs will turn on when it hits a certain level in this range to try and remove the heat.

Ask the question. What happens if you operate the computer in outside air at 35'C? Why is this the max operating temperature?

Answer. the FANS are not sufficient enough to remove the heat from the system and thus the CPU temperature will continue to rise above a dangerous level. From an educated guess, the CPU temperature is probably 10-20'C higher than the outside air depending on the CPU load.

If you google, you will find articles that support what I am saying even thought they don't specifically discuss power pc.

thx
RLC

[styrafome]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net ... 50'C is just coming from experience with other processors that I have worked with and from some reliability data that I have looked at... As I stated before, there are reliability studies that they do on these processor to guarantee that they last for at least 10 years under a certain applied voltage. So you will just have to wait another 4-5 years to see if this is the case for you...I don't think you are getting my point. My point is that the hotter your CPU runs, the sooner it will fail. The cooler it runs the longer it will last... 50-55'C is a cause for concern only in the sense that if your computer is unable to remove the heat faster than the heat is being generated, you are damaging the CPU. I am certain that the FANs will turn on when it hits a certain level in this range to try and remove the heat...

I do understand what you're saying, and I know that you are correct, that heat shortens the life of any computer components. I'm not totally unconcerned. If the fans stay on for more than a short period, that's a warning sign. During the summer, the fans can come on, so I blow a small desk fan past this thing to help it out.

But once again, my own lack of paranoia stems from the following:

• No line of PowerBook G3s or G4s is falling out of the sky in mass numbers, young or old. The PowerBook G3 is a laptop that its owners hate to part with, yet despite their age and similar temperature profile, mass failure reports have not materialized.
• The fans don't come on very often. Therefore Apple's monitoring system does not appear to be concerned with my typical temperatures.
• I will not need to wait 4-5 years to see what happens. I only need my PowerBooks to last long enough to be obsolete, when they must be replaced anyway. My PowerBook G4 is already 1.5 years on, so it's going to have to die in the next 18-24 months for me to care. My PowerBook G3 already outlasted its obsolescence and looks like it's going to make it to year 6. That's longer than some well-ventilated desktops can manage to stay alive.

I have to conclude that Apple's design is doing what it's supposed to do.

[Juz10mac]

Setting the 'Processor Performance' in the 'Energy Saver' system preference panel to 'Automatic' instead of 'Highest', will make a big difference on the temperature of the CPU. If anyone here is still concerned you can always set the processor performance to 'Reduced.' There isn't much of a performance loss between the highest and automatic settings.

[maclova]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net From Apple web site: Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C) What really troubles me is that Apple doesn't mention anything about the critical temperature of their CPU leaving it to speculation what is safe and what is dangerous. Why don't Apple just put temperature sensors on their processor, most other manufacturer do. Even Intel and AMD processor has options to set warning and shutdown if the processor temperature get too hot. So 50'C is just coming from experience with other processors that I have worked with and from some reliability data that I have looked at. The number may be 50'C or 55'C, but I am probably not to far off. Yes, you are correct that the operating temperature spec is the temperature outside the unit. As I stated before, there are reliability studies that they do on these processor to guarantee that they last for at least 10 years under a certain applied voltage. So you will just have to wait another 4-5 years to see if this is the case for you. I don't think you are getting my point. My point is that the hotter your CPU runs, the sooner it will fail. The cooler it runs the longer it will last. If you want to extend the life of your CPU, then removing the heat from the system is the key!! If you are always running with the CPU loaded, a cooler plate is just something to consider to extend the life of your CPU. If you don't think it is necessary, then keep doing what you are doing. 50-55'C is a cause for concern only in the sense that if your computer is unable to remove the heat faster than the heat is being generated, you are damaging the CPU. I am certain that the FANs will turn on when it hits a certain level in this range to try and remove the heat. Ask the question. What happens if you operate the computer in outside air at 35'C? Why is this the max operating temperature? Answer. the FANS are not sufficient enough to remove the heat from the system and thus the CPU temperature will continue to rise above a dangerous level. From an educated guess, the CPU temperature is probably 10-20'C higher than the outside air depending on the CPU load. If you google, you will find articles that support what I am saying even thought they don't specifically discuss power pc. thx RLC

There apparently are such sensors in the PowerBook G4s...how else would that program I posted a screenshot of been able to tell the processor temperature afterall

[roncross@cox.net]

Quote: Originally Posted by maclova There apparently are such sensors in the PowerBook G4s...how else would that program I posted a screenshot of been able to tell the processor temperature afterall

I am sure that there are temperature sensors on the powerbook, that is why the FANs come on. However, Apple doesn't make this temperature available to the user. I guess what I was trying to say is that I am somewhat suspicious of Apple's intentions when it comes to CPU temperatures. You shouldn't need a 3rd party application to figure out how hot your CPU is running. This tells me that they have something to hide or trying to discourage users from trying different configurations on their machines.

I am certain that Apple knows how hot these CPUs are running, but you will not find anything on their website about this. In fact, it is very difficult to find any information on the temperature of the powerpc. Perhaps, Apple does this to protect themselves from lawsuits. If your CPU overheat for one reason or another, it will be very difficult to prove that this is the case. They can even challenge these 3rd party temperature sensors applications a number of ways. That is why I really don't rely on these 3rd party temperature sensors. How well is it calibrated? How accurate is it? What is the amount of error measured in these temperature sensors? How fast can it track the change in temperature, etc... Unless the temperature sensors can answer these questions, I don't trust them.

Again the best approach is to use a cooler plate or run at a reduced processor power if you are concerned and you want to extend the life of your PC. By monitoring the temperature, you are not really doing anything to extend the life of your system. You are watching your system slowly die.

thx
RLC

[roncross@cox.net]

I forgot to mention that another reason you want to run cooler is because your CPU can run faster. By keeping the temperature cooler, you are able to get more mega hertz out of the CPU for the same voltage.

So in short, cooler temperature mean that the CPU will run faster and it will last longer. I don't know if there is a better incentive then this to keep your processor running cooler.

thx
RLC

[styrafome]

Just curious...does a PowerBook's CPU speed actually rise and fall based on the current temperature? If we stuck an air conditioner next to a PowerBook, could it go faster than the rating on the box (my 1.25 GHz, for instance)? Or is "runs faster when cooler" merely a theoretical advantage for PowerBooks?

[hayne]

Quote: Originally Posted by roncross@cox.net I am sure that there are temperature sensors on the powerbook, that is why the FANs come on. However, Apple doesn't make this temperature available to the user. I guess what I was trying to say is that I am somewhat suspicious of Apple's intentions when it comes to CPU temperatures. You shouldn't need a 3rd party application to figure out how hot your CPU is running. This tells me that they have something to hide or trying to discourage users from trying different configurations on their machines.

Normal users do not need to know about the internal temperatures of their machines. Thus Apple does not make the temperature data easily accessible - it would just be one more thing for users to worry about. But it is hardly hidden - the means for accessing the built-in temperature sensors is documented by Apple (the IOKit docs) and the data is easily accessible to developers, hence the 3rd-party apps that display it. There is no big conspiracy to hide information from the user - Apple merely supplies the info that it thinks most users will need to know. But if you were referring to overclocking, then of course Apple wants to discourage that - Apple wants the machines to be used in the manner for which they were designed.

Quote: That is why I really don't rely on these 3rd party temperature sensors. How well is it calibrated? How accurate is it? What is the amount of error measured in these temperature sensors? How fast can it track the change in temperature, etc... Unless the temperature sensors can answer these questions, I don't trust them.

Umm, these temperature sensors are Apple's temperature sensors, not 3rd-party ones. They are the sensors that the hardware uses to determine when to turn on the fans. There are no other temperature sensors - that is all there is.

[maclova]

just remembered another rumor from the apple.com forum...supposedly the 15 and 17 inch powerbooks don't experience this temperature trouble with tiger, can anyone with such laptops with tiger running on them verify this?

[hayne]

Quote: Originally Posted by maclova just remembered another rumor from the apple.com forum...supposedly the 15 and 17 inch powerbooks don't experience this temperature trouble with tiger, can anyone with such laptops with tiger running on them verify this?

Please remind us what exactly the trouble is.
It seems likely that the 12 inch model will be hotter for the same CPU speed since there is less space.