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Old 02-25-2004, 08:20 AM   #1
jkp23
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Running Apple X11 from the >console login?

Is it possible in some way to utilize the apple X11 install from the >console login? I want to do this because it would allow me to run minus the overhead of Aqua when i want to run say, Gnome.

Also, if this is not possible, which I suspect it isn't, are there any other X11 implentations that integrate so seamlessly with Aqua nowadays? I heard that Quartz-wm, would run on other X11 distros - does this alone give the same kind of integration with Aqua as Apples X11?
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:29 AM   #2
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To answer your first question, see item number 95 in the X11 FAQ of this forum: click
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:37 AM   #3
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OK - so are there any better alternatives to apples X11 - ones that integrate nicely with aqua when not using another window manager?
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:51 AM   #4
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Looks like there might be a clue here: click
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Old 02-25-2004, 09:51 AM   #5
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Ok - so having done a bit of reading here and @ Sao's place, I have found out that apparantly the latest release of XFree86 on Fink's database will support using Quartz-Wm. I take it this is what makes windows apear like normal aqua windows etc.

What it doesn't say however, is how you would go about doing that. I am reluctant to go to this version of Xfree86 instead of Apples X11 (even though I want to) for three reasons - I hope if i outline them here, someone might be able to give me the answers:

1: I don't know how and what to uninstall from the current apple installation. Apples installers dont offer an uninstall option, and the only way I know is with the shareware util - OSXPM.

2: I am not sure If i will have to rebuild all existing X11 based software to agree with my new install after - if so this is a hell of a lot of work for someone running on Fink's unstable tree where almost everything is compiled from source.

3: As I said before, I don't know how I actually get XFree86 to play ball with Qaurtz-wm. Surely if I uninstall Apple X11, Quartz-wm goes too?

If anyone can answer those queries for me I would be most grateful...(rusto - thanks for your help so far)...
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
jkp23 wrote:
are there any other X11 implentations that integrate so seamlessly with Aqua nowadays?

From a post by Torrey T. Lyons from XFree86.Org at the x11-users list on 22 Feb:
"The third release candidate of XFree86 4.4 has been finalized. pre-built binaries are available for Panther and Jaguar....Both versions will interoperate with Apple's X11. The Jaguar binaries will work with an existing Beta install and similar for Panther and X11 1.0. Apple's X11 is not required, however".

Pre-built binaries for Panther are available at:
ftp://ftp.xfree86.org/pub/XFree86/sn...arwin-ppc-7.x/

Assuming an X11 implementation is installed on your system, for example, you can install the binaries from XFree86.org, or the Fink "xfree86" package, or the Xonx Project package ("but it doesn't work with Apple implementation of X11") then you can type '>console' at the login window to enter Darwin and run the command 'exec startx'.

This will start your X11 installation with the default configuration. Normally, when you run the command 'startx', your ~/.xinitrc file is read and that is the file that you can use to start the window manager of your choice.
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:14 AM   #7
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sao:

will i have to rebuild my existing x11 based software, like bunble-gnome (freshly installed from source yesterday!) to agree with the new X11 install?


Quote:
Both versions will interoperate with Apple's X11

...

so this implies that can I leave Apple X11 installed? If so, how will I differenciate between the two when running startx?

also, is the fink package (in the unstable tree - 4.3.99.901-2) in step with the latest distro from XFree.org that you linked too?

Lastly: If I can't leave apples install on my machine, how do I install quartz-wm?

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:54 AM   #8
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jkp23,

I believe it is possible to have both installations, but haven't yet tested mysef with the third release candidate of XFree86 4.4 (In the time of Apple's X11 Beta 3, I used to have XDarwin (installed from fink xfree86 packages) and X11.app living side by side (had to make some adjustments) and I controlled both installations via different ~/.xinitrc files.

I would like to test how this will work now in one of my machines, but I could give you an answer with 'more info' in a couple of days.

Fink installs everything in /sw , so probably (with some exceptions) you wouldn't need to rebuild the software installed with Fink.

The link I posted is for the 4.3.99.903 binaries, and I think the latest with Fink is 4.3.99.901-2 (it will probably be updated by the Fink developers very soon).
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Old 02-25-2004, 12:19 PM   #9
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Good stuff Sao...

Have managed to get XFree86 ( XDarwin???) installed and it runs just fine. I can also still boot Apple X11 without a prob.

Would you mind enlightening me as to how you might go about getting Apple X11 to read a different startup file to .xinitrc. That way I could keep apple X11 setup for Qaurtz-wm, and run XFree86 using a full linux window manager like Gnome.

Thanks for your help so far...ace!!!

EDIT:

Darn...I just logged out and into >console, then I typed startx and it did the same as with Apple X11, tried to start the normal Apple wm stuff. I can't see that placing 'init' before the command will make any difference. My .xinitrc looks like this:

Code:
source /sw/bin/init.sh
exec gnome-session
The odd thing is that if i run startx from a normal terminal window, It is definately running the new XDarwin / Xfree86 server. Any ideas why is it hanging my machine from >console and trying to run the Aqua window manager?
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Old 02-26-2004, 03:34 AM   #10
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jkp23,

So you installed the fink xfree86 package?

When I had Apple's X11 Beta 2 and XDarwin installed, I could actually run both XDarwin and X11 side-by-side (by forcing XDarwin to use display :1, instead of the default of :0) by running the command:

defaults write org.xfree86.XDarwin Display 1

(you could also edit ~/Library/Preferences/org.xfree86.XDarwin.plist with a text editor and change the Display parameter)

Then, I had at the end of my ~/.xinitrc file:
Code:
if [ X$DISPLAY = "X:0" ]; then
 #
 # Assume Apple X11 and start up accordingly
 #
 /usr/X11R6/bin/xterm -geometry 80x34+100+40 &
 exec /usr/X11R6/bin/quartz-wm
 else
 #
 # Assume XDarwin
 #
 /sw/bin/autocutsel &
 exec /sw/bin/gnome-session
 fi
I used to start X11 by double-clicking on the XDarwin.app or the X11.app icons (I wrote some scripts later to do this).
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Old 02-27-2004, 06:57 AM   #11
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OK -

I like that solution Sao. But have you any idea why I still cant initiate XFree86 from >console? It seems to be trying to start the XDarwin app automatically? Obviously that needs Aqua so the whole thing falls down.

Many thanks.
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Old 02-28-2004, 05:59 AM   #12
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Still no working solution from >console

| Sao...

I've been struggling for 2 days now trying to get a way to boot Xfree86 without Aqua. Everytime I go to the console and run startx, it tries to run the XDarwin Aqua application.

Im not the only one who is having this trouble so it seems: This guy and this one are having the same issue it seems.

I have tried various things, without success. I have removed completely Apple's X11 - following your instructions in other posts - I have installed afresh the Xfree86 version. Last night, I again, wiped everything, and forced apt-get, to install the current binary version (hoping that this was a bug with Panther and the current snapshot) but have had no luck.... It seems to do exactly the same thing.

I have given a good look to the start-up switches for startx, but there don't seem to be any suitable ones to force a normal (non-quartz related) start-up, only the other way round.

Have you or anyone else got any idea why I am getting this issue? Has anyone successfully got this to work with Panther?

yours desperately...
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Old 02-28-2004, 08:33 AM   #13
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jkp23,

One of the feature differences between XFree86 4.4.0 and Apple's X1 is that there is no "pseudo-fullscreen" mode. XFree86's fullscreen mode has a real root window which works with xmag and twm, but you can't dynamically switch between fullscreen and rootless modes.

Have you tried running from >console:

exec startx -- -fullscreen
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Old 02-28-2004, 08:49 AM   #14
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Hope you are still there Sao...

Unfortunately I cannot reproduce what I am about to tell you because since changing to the fink binary install of Xfree86 the following command doesn't work as it did.

If you run : startx -- -help

it will tell you about the different startup options. On my new (older) version it just starts the Xdarwin.app. However, it tells you about the 3 different options you can use on OS X, including the one you mentioned, but what it tells you is that they are designed to work _side-by-side_ with quartz - not independent of it. I was unable to find the startup switch that tells it is is running independently of quartz. This is the problem at root - it seems that they have changed the philosophy behind how X11 will run on OS X and have assumed that we all wish to run it side by side with Quartz. I in-fact want to have the option to switch to a completely different environment without the overhead of Quartz being run as-well.

Is there any chance you could try and reproduce what I am experiencing to confirm that it is a problem in the source code somewhere? I think this is a Panther only issue, as it seems that people were fine on OS 10.2.

Cheers
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:42 AM   #15
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Just to update...

This defo seems to be a problem with 10.3.2 (perhaps earlier panther too) and XDarwin. I have installed on several other machines and found the same and there are various other posts on the XDarwin boards related to this issue. I have reported it to the development team but had no response
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Old 03-13-2004, 08:58 AM   #16
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Any more ideas?

I'm so damn frustrated by this one - I really want to get it sorted....

any more ideas?
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Old 03-14-2004, 07:33 AM   #17
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Well...

I finally got somewhere this morning when I discovered that you need to use:

startx -- -iokit

to get it running from the console now as the detection appears to be broken in xfree86 under panther.

That now boots xfree86 from the console fine (after downloading the panther keymap file and installing in /system/Library/Keyboards). the only trouble I get now is that on logging out of gnome it just hangs the system. I am going to test with another window manager to see if it makes a difference. Anyone had this before?
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:47 AM   #18
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jkp23,

As a follow-up on the subject, Torrey Lyons from XFree86.org send me the following information after I asked if it is possible to start XFree86-4.4 from ">console" in MacOS X.

-----
"It is possible, but Apple does not make it easy. Of course, first you
login with ">console" and then as yourself from the text console like
before. The problem is that Apple has removed the .keymapping files
from /System/Library/Keyboards/ that were there in Jaguar and
earlier. The Quartz modes of XDarwin all know how to request a keymap
by using Carbon. Unfortunately from the console you can't do this.
Thus XDarwin has no way to generate a keymap and it fails to start.
Currently the only way around this it to copy all the files in
/System/Library/Keyboards from a Jaguar installation. You can also
get these from OpenDarwin or Darwin CVS. The "right" place to put
these would be /Library/Keyboards because they are no longer part of
Apple's official system. That way future updates won't remove them
again.

In the future we are planning to fix this problem by using the files
in /System/Library/Keyboard Layouts/. This requires writing a new
library to interpret these files that does the same thing as the
Carbon Keyboard Layout API".

--Torrey
-----

He also mentioned that he would probably package up all the .keymapping files and post them on the XonX page for people who want a convenient place to download. They are redistributable under the terms of the APSL. Also, you can download all the keymapping files individually from:
http://www.mit.edu/afs/sipb/project/...s/keymappings/
(Most people will want USA.keymapping)
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Old 03-26-2004, 03:29 AM   #19
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yeah -

I forgot to mention that that was also an issue. I just downloaded the old Jaguar keymapping which someone was hosting at Xfree86.org and put it in the old location. This also fixes the issue. But the key thing is that we now know how you actually initiate XFree86 from the >console.

Many thanks sao for any time you put into this one. we cracked it in the end
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