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Old 02-08-2004, 02:48 PM   #1
Norm Nager
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Question Weird! Reset Open Firmware & command-S startups fail on Beige G3?

TechTool Pro 4.0.1's hardware tests panel finds no problem.
Zapping PRAM doesn't fix it.
Pressing CUDA/PMU button for 10+ seconds doesn't fix it.
Leaving new PRAM battery out overnight didn't help.
Disconnecting Zip drive and floppy drive no help.
Replacing the one defective RAM chip gave me more memory but did not resolve the problem.
Triple-checking that all cards are well-seated no help.
Erasing OS 9.2.2 no help.
Running DiskWarrior 3 and TechTool Pro 4.0.1 on previous 9.2.2 volume and current 10.2.8 volume, including volume structure rebuild, finder file tests/repairs and file structure tests didn't solve problem.
Fantasizing about drop kicking the G3 didn't help.
----------------------
->266-mhz Beige G3 (rev. A) desktop
->Radeon 7000 Mac Edition card does enable Apple Studio Display connected to it via DVI to ADC converter
->Orange Micro USB/FireWire PCI card has worked fine since 2001
->640 mb RAM
->40-GB 7200 rpm IDE hard drive (replaced original 4 GB hd)
->OS 10.2.8 on 7.8 GB 1st partition, erased 2nd partition, files but no OS on 3rd partition
----------------------
Before I erased OS 9.2.2, I could set the startup disk preference for either OS and had no problem re-starting. Now, it opens directly into OS 10.2.8. Before, it defaulted to 9.2.2.

Pressing command-option-o-f on startup does not give me an Open Firmware screen but only returns the computer to the default OS.

Zapping PRAM 4-6 times and quickly switching fingers to the command-option-o-f keys gives one a dark screen or returns to the default OS

Pressing command-s on startup just results in a dark screen and I have to press the button on the computer to turn it off.

Pressing option on startup (when there were two OS volumes) only got me into the default OS and gave me no choice.

Other than that, there is no problem of which I'm aware. The apps I use in 10.2.8 all work well.

I was able to install 10.3.2 on a FireWire external drive with XPostFacto and boot it from the G3 for a couple days. 10.3.2 and the applications for that version worked well, but then booting 10.3.2 became iffy and then impossible. The Reset Open Firmware and command-S startups did not work before upgrading to 10.3.2.

I removed all the invisible files created by XPostFacto and even replaced my 10.2.8 volume with the backup I had made before installing XPostFacto.

That 10.2.8 volume, was a clean install of 10.2.0 on an erased partition with Repair Permissions run after installation and then after running the update to 10.2.8 and after each Software Update and in between each installation of applications and their updates.

Your counsel, please? Respectfully, Norm

Last edited by Norm Nager; 02-08-2004 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 02-08-2004, 03:47 PM   #2
DeltaMac
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Only way to perform full reset on a beige G3
power off
unplug power cord
remove battery (test it for 3.6 volts) and leave out.
disconnect power supply from logic board (the largest connector, other than IDE/SCSI ribbon connectors
Now press the power switch (a momentary press does it)
Leave system alone for at least 10 minutes.
reinstall battery (in the correct direction)
reconnect logic board power supply connector
Plug in the power cord
test the system

I had one beige G3 (a version 1 logic board) that refused to run or boot 9.2 or later (OS X also runs fine) It would only run OS 9.1 or older, or OS X. Another beige system basically identical ran anything??

I suspect that you still have bad memory...

After the logic board reset, does it hold the drive selection in the Startup disk control pane? (set it, do a full shutdown, then restart and recheck the control pane)
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Old 02-08-2004, 04:51 PM   #3
Norm Nager
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeltaMac
disconnect power supply from logic board (the largest connector, other than IDE/SCSI ribbon connectors

* How long do I leave battery out before disconnecting power supply from logic board? Overnight? 10 minutes?
* DeltaMac, is that the wide ribbon cable at the very back of the Beige G3?

Quote:
Now press the power switch (a momentary press does it)

* Are you referring to the power button on the front of the G3 or to something inside the machine?

* Do I understand correctly that the power button (or switch?) is pressed while the computer is still disconnected from electricity and while the battery is out of the case?

Quote:
test the system

How? Or it that what you meant a couple paragraphs later by "holding drive selection"?

Quote:
I suspect that you still have bad memory.

* What kind of test do I do there: remove two of the three sticks at a time and then do what--try a Reset Open Firmware startup?

* Could the order in which the RAM sticks are placed in the three slots make any difference? Or could something in the logic board be damaging RAM?

(FYI: When I ran System Profiler several hours ago, it showed 640 mb RAM, but I realize that doesn't indicate if a stick is bad. One is brand new, the other two were bought new in the last several months.)

Quote:
After the logic board reset, does it hold the drive selection in the Startup disk control pane? (set it, do a full shutdown, then restart and recheck the control pane)

* OK, I'm installing as I edit this OS 9.2.1 on the empty volume from which I had erased 9.2.2.

* Any additional test I can do after the logic board reset?

Thanks, DeltaMac for your thoughtfulness and also for your patience in helping me get things clear in my own mind.

Last edited by Norm Nager; 02-08-2004 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 02-08-2004, 05:08 PM   #4
DeltaMac
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The only time period here is 'wait at least 10 minutes after pressing the power switch, to reassemble the computer
Power switch is your normal power switch on the front of the case.
please reread my post, there's nothing between the lines.
The Power supply cable plugs into the logic board, It's roughly in the middle of the right end of the logic board, as you look at it from the front, it's white, with all different colored wires (about 24, I think)
All of this removing and disconnecting can be done without regard to time. follow the list, and press the power switch, then leave the system alone for at least 10 minutes, then reassemble (don't forget the power suply connector). By 'test' , just see if it powers on, and try the things that should be working.
For suspicious memory, the only really good test, is replacing your memory with some that you know is already working in another system. With no easy access to known good memory, all you CAN do, is either give it the evil eye, or find a utility that will test it...
Bottom line, your symptoms SOUND like, possibly faulty memory (in addition to other possibilities, like a flaky logic board, intermittent processor, weak power supply, intermittent voltage regulator, and a few other odds and ends, the memory is by far the cheapest option.
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Old 02-08-2004, 05:21 PM   #5
Norm Nager
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeltaMac Bottom line, your symptoms SOUND like, possibly faulty memory (in addition to other possibilities, like a flaky logic board, intermittent processor, weak power supply, intermittent voltage regulator, and a few other odds and ends, the memory is by far the cheapest option.

DeltaMac, we just crossed in cyberspace.

As I added in the edited posting to which you just responded,

* What kind of test do I do for RAM: remove two of the three sticks at a time and then do what--try a Reset Open Firmware startup?

* Could the order in which the RAM sticks are placed in the three slots make any difference? Or could something in the logic board be damaging RAM?

(FYI: When I ran System Profiler several hours ago, it showed 640 mb RAM, but I realize that doesn't indicate if a stick is bad. One is brand new, the other two were bought new in the last several months.)

I just installed OS 9.2.1 on the empty volume from which I erased it and after re-start, I set the Startup Disk preference for OS 10.2.8. It re-started in 10.2.8. I then shutdown and it re-started again in 10.2.8.

Once I take a break for an hour or two, I will return and do the procedures you recommended. If it holds the startup disk preference, then what? If not, what would you recommend?

Last edited by Norm Nager; 02-08-2004 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 02-08-2004, 08:24 PM   #6
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You could try any of the options that you mentioned. Running with one stick at a time might have best effect (Watch if any single stick will let you do a CMD-S)
You don't really have much of a problem any more, but I think to fix the CMD-S is going to be software ONLY - OS X provides that single-user function, and hardware should not have any bearing on that. The best fix with 10.2.x , may be to reinstall the 10.2.8 COMBO updater...

Does CMD-V work (that takes you to verbose startup, similar to single user (CMD--S) except the startup does not pause, and shows all services starting in the text mode that single user shows, with a complete start finishing at the Finder.
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Old 02-08-2004, 08:36 PM   #7
Norm Nager
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Several-step test done; holds Startup Disk setting

Quote:
Originally posted by DeltaMac
You could try any of the options that you mentioned. Running with one stick at a time might have best effect (Watch if any single stick will let you do a CMD-S)
You don't really have much of a problem any more, but I think to fix the CMD-S is going to be software ONLY - OS X provides that single-user function, and hardware should not have any bearing on that. The best fix with 10.2.x , may be to reinstall the 10.2.8 COMBO updater...

Does CMD-V work (that takes you to verbose startup, similar to single user (CMD--S) except the startup does not pause, and shows all services starting in the text mode that single user shows, with a complete start finishing at the Finder.

I followed DeltaMac's several-step procedure for resetting the logic board. The Beige G3 again is holding the Startup Disk preference in 10.2.8 as it did before the several steps.

I just re-started in 9.2.1 and updated it to 9.2.2 just in case it makes a difference. OS was 9.2.2 before I erased it.

(On each re-installation of OS 9.2.1 since installing the Radeon 7000 Mac Edition card a few weeks ago, I got an error immediately after installation on re-start: "ATI Graphics Accelerator illegal instruction." Each time, I moved the extension to the Disabled Extensions folder.

(On each update to OS 9.2.2, the G3 froze but worked again after zapping PRAM.)

But, still, neither command-v nor command-s work.

Last edited by Norm Nager; 02-08-2004 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 02-08-2004, 08:57 PM   #8
Norm Nager
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It's NOT a problem with the RAM; nor does re-install of 10.2.8 solve problem

Once, again, I set Startup Disk to 10.2.8 and it re-started in 10.2.8. I did a shutdown and it started in 10.2.8.

Now, with all 3 sticks of RAM in place, just started up in 10.2.8 with command-v, which I've never done before. I don't notice any difference between the window now and a regular 10.2.8 startup. Then re-started with command-s and screen stayed dark. Required zapping PRAM to re-start.

Next, checked with one stick of RAM at a time. None allowed a command-v startup. None allowed a command-s startup. Screen went dark on all command-s startups.

After checking the RAM, I followed DeltaMac's advice to re-install once more the combo Jaguar 10.2.8 updater.

And still, neither a command-s nor command-v startup worked.

Where to from here?

Respectfully, Norm

Last edited by Norm Nager; 02-08-2004 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 02-10-2004, 11:04 PM   #9
Norm Nager
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Wink Problems solved!

Aha! It seems my new Radeon 7000 Mac Edition card was at the heart of my problems.

I learned a great deal in this forum and in the Other World Computing forums <http://anybox.owc.net/forum/index.php> and managed to put it all together.

ATI released a new driver for OS 10.2.8 in Nov. 2003. I installed it.

I learned the Terminal command to stop the on-board video card from conflicting with the Radeon 7000 ME.

I learned a couple optional XPostFacto settings helped, including one that set video-output to the Radeon-connected Apple Studio Display and one that set input-device to the keyboard.

And when I still had a problem left in doing a reset Open Firmware startup, I returned to the counsel I received in this thread about unplugging power to the computer, removing the battery, unplugging the logic board power and letting everything sit for at least 10 minutes. The computer clock somehow managed to maintain the correct time and date so I went back through all the steps again, this time integrating pressing the PMU/CUDA button.

No more problems!
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