Pages not always saving properly

[zzzuppp]

I've found that since Apple, in their wisdom, took away the user's right to save files for himself except as a 'version', that certain apps, notably Pages, don't save things properly.
If I'm working on a document in Pages and then close it, about 50% of the time when I reopen it the last few things I did are missing-entire sentences etc, which I then have to reconstruct.
There doesn't seem to be any workaround for this in Pages prefs.
Can anyone suggest a solution?

[ganbustein]

That shouldn't happen, and I've never seen it happen.

Your disparaging comments about Apple's new (and IMO wonderful) auto-save feature make me wonder if you've applied any "improvements" to disable it, or maybe disable the somewhat related auto-reopen feature. ("Improvements" might be implemented by locking folders, replacing folders with files, entering defaults commands in Terminal, or installing/running haxies you may have found on the internet.) If so, you might consider undoing the improvements.

Is there anything unusual about how you close the document? (Force-quitting Pages would be an example of something unusual.)

Is it possible that after saving a version, you undo some of your changes before closing the document? All changes get saved, even those after the last explicitly saved version, and when you re-open the document it should come back exactly as it was when you closed it. (The significance of "save a version" is that explicitly saved versions don't get pruned away from your versions history.) Have you checked to see if your lost changes are available under "Revert Document..."?

[zzzuppp]

Thanks ganbustein.
I haven't changed anything in Pages, nor any of those things you mention.
I don't use 'Save a version', I just close a document (so I don't even quit Pages), and invariably it reopens with the last section missing. If, however, I leave a file open and untouched for a few minutes, it seems to save things properly.

I could understand that if, say, it had an autosave that ran every couple of minutes, for instance, and otherwise didn't save anything. But that's not what I expect it to do under Apple's autosave function.

I have nothing against Apple's autosave, although I do wish they had left 'Save As' in.

[NaOH]

Couple of additional things.

• Are you actually running 10.7.2 or is your signature out of date?
• Have you run Software Update to ensure Pages is at the most recent version (4.1).
• There's nothing wrong with using Save A Version. It's pretty much just like using Save.
• Like ganbustein noted, Have you tried using File > Revert Document to see if your actual last document state exists. Obviously, you shouldn't have to do this, but it may get your document to the state you expect.
• Consider quitting Pages and moving ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.Pages to the Desktop. Likewise, ~/Library/Saved Application State/com.apple.Pages. It's possible one of these folders has a file which has become corrupt. If this is going to help, it likely won't appear to you until the second time you proceed to work with a document.

[zzzuppp]

Hi NaOH, yes my sigs out-of-date, I'm on 10.7.4, plus I have the latest Pages 4.1.

I'll try putting those files on the Desktop and see what happens. Thanks.

[benwiggy]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp I've found that since Apple, in their wisdom, took away the user's right to save files for himself except as a 'version', that certain apps, notably Pages, don't save things properly.

1. I don't see this behaviour. I use Pages a lot. So NaOH's suggestion that something in your user Library might be causing the problem seems likely.

2. Apple hasn't "taken away your right to save files". Command S still saves what you have. The fact that this saved file is one of successive versions is not some sort of cheat, nor is it inferior to the saved files my grandmother used to make.

[zzzuppp]

I don't mind what Apple do so long as it works, which in this instance is not the case for me. Perhaps as you say it's some glitch in Library files.
Can I just check: in moving them to the Desktop, what is going to happen? Will new substitutes automatically be generated in the Library, as with pref. files? or do I need to check Pages behaviour and then put them back into the Library?

Slightly off-topic, but I would love to know how other people deal with the absence of 'Save As'. There are various tasks I have to do which involve making substantially similar files which nonetheless need different names. The only way I have found is to make a duplicate, rename it, and then make changes within it.

[benwiggy]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp Can I just check: in moving them to the Desktop, what is going to happen? Will new substitutes automatically be generated in the Library, as with pref. files? or do I need to check Pages behaviour and then put them back into the Library?

Yes, the files will be recreated. If you create a brand new user account, there is very little in the Library folder to start with, and apps add files as they need.

Whereas the old behaviour would be to modify a file and then save it with a new name, now you have to do the reverse: save it with a new name, and then make the change. The only slightly longer step is the addition of "Duplicate".
It might be worth adding Command D as a shortcut to dupe the file. Then it's just <Command> D S to recreate Save As.

[zzzuppp]

Maybe this is a bit strange, but in my Library (that is, my username Library, the one that's hidden in Lion), there is nothing for Pages (that is, com.apple.Pages) in either /Saved Application State or /Containers.
Thos subfolders exist but there's nothing for Pages (or iWork etc) in either of them...
And, no, I hadn't already moved them onto the Desktop.

Checked the main Macintosh HD Library too, just in case, and those subfolders don't exist there.

I quit Pages and reopened it, but no new files appeared in those places.

???

[benwiggy]

In Saved Application State, I have:
com.apple.iWork.Pages.plist

Nothing in Containers, though there is a Pages Cache file in ... Caches, and a Pages pref file.

[NaOH]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp Slightly off-topic, but I would love to know how other people deal with the absence of 'Save As'. There are various tasks I have to do which involve making substantially similar files which nonetheless need different names. The only way I have found is to make a duplicate, rename it, and then make changes within it.

I either use File > Duplicate or I duplicate the original file in the Finder and rename it (select the original, press Command-D, press Return to enter name-editing mode, re-name, press Return).

More than anything, my approach can be captured in three words: Adapt and overcome. Yes, I wish Save As were still available. Yes, I could re-create that functionality with a utility like Keyboard Maestro. But there's every reason to think this change is here for the long haul. I could fight it or I could learn how to best live with it. Computers are about simplifying life, so I choose not to fight it.

Quote: Originally Posted by benwiggy In Saved Application State, I have: com.apple.iWork.Pages.plist Nothing in Containers, though there is a Pages Cache file in ... Caches, and a Pages pref file.

Saying there would be something in Containers is a mistake on my part. I never use Pages, so I guessed at both the names of what would be found and I assumed files would be created in Containers.

[ganbustein]

~/Library/Containers is for sandboxing. (Each sandbox is a "container".) Currently, the only sandboxed applications from Apple are TextEdit and Preview. Considering that Apple is now requiring all new Mac App Store apps to be sandboxed, it would only be fair if Apple started sandboxing a few more of there own apps in the near future.

~/Library/"Application Support"/iWork/* basically contains only user templates for the iWork apps (including Pages).

~/Library/"Saved Application State" is for remembering which documents were open when you quit the application, so they can be re-opened in exactly the same state on next application launch. It shouldn't have anything to do with autosave.

~/Library/"Autosave information" would seem the logical place to look for files related to autosave, but it's empty on my system.

The latest version of a document is saved in the location you specified. All prior versions are saved inside /.DocumentRevisions-V100, in which you should not meddle. (There is some major voodoo going on inside that folder, with files that appear to be entire documents but somehow take up no space on disk, at least according to /usr/bin/du.)


Let's break down what "Save As..." did, back when it was still available:

1. Rename: Ask where to save a new copy of the document.
2. Save: Save the current state of the document in the new location.
3. Fork: The original document is left as it was when last saved, so that you now have two documents where you had one.
4. Retarget: The current window is re-targeted to show and allow editing of the new document

If you wanted to continue editing the old document, you had to re-open it, or use the "Save a Copy As..." command instead to do steps 1, 2, and 3 but not 4.

The thing to notice is that "Save As..." was never a single-function command. It's a command that ties together a cluster of not-really-related functions. (Forking, saving, renaming, and retargeting are four separate concepts.)

What "Save As..." and "Save a Copy As..." have in common is that they fork the document. After either command, you have two copies of the document that can be edited independently. (Or not. One of the copies may be simply a snapshot saved for posterity and/or backup. But "Save a Version" already covers that use of "Save As...".)

Lion regroups these functions. You fork a document using "Duplicate". If you did the old "Save As..." with unsaved changes, the changes would be saved into the new document but not into the original, without asking if that's what you wanted. (If you wanted to save the changes into the original as well, and forgot to "Save" before saying "Save As...", well, tough. You shouldn't'a done that.) Lion asks.

The difference between "Save As..." and "Save a Copy As..." was which document the single window now tracks. With Lion that distinction vanishes, because "Duplicate" keeps both documents open.

The new document that "Duplicate" makes is a new unsaved document that happens to contain the same content as the original. "Save As..." and "Save a Copy As..." both insisted that you name the new document immediately, but there was never any real reason for that. You usually don't need to name a new document until you're ready to save it, and that principle should apply here too. With Lion it does. Think of "Duplicate" as meaning "New From Template", where the original document is the template. When you're ready to name the new document, name it by saving it. (⌘S for "Save..." will ask for a file name, just as it would for any other new untitled document. Once it's saved, ⌘S become "Save a Version".)


In short, to do what "Save As..." did:

• Duplicate
• Close the original
• Save the duplicate

To do what "Save a Copy As..." did:

• Duplicate
• Save the duplicate
• Close it

[NaOH]

Interesting information there, ganbustein. I'll add a couple things that I observe but can't attribute to anything due to ignorance.

~/Library/"Autosave information: In 10.6, TextEdit files which had been created but not saved were put here. I've never seen anything here under Lion (I would since I keep ~/Library in list view with empty folders having the disclosure triangle set to expand). I have no idea if anything uses this folder anymore.

Restore Oddity, Presumably A Feature: I don't use any of the restore features. I just opened TextEdit, pasted text into the new file, then quit. I did this mostly to see if that Autosave Information folder was still being used. As I said, it's not. But when I re-launched TextEdit, the unsaved document was showing. I did a similar test with Preview and saw the same thing. This is the only times I've seen these applications do this, presumably because if they're not shown to the user there's no way of saving or discarding the files.

And nothing even appears in the Saved Application State folder when these windows are restored. So, yeah, I think you nailed it by saying that /.DocumentRevisions-V100 has "some major voodoo going on."

[zzzuppp]

Quote: Originally Posted by benwiggy In Saved Application State, I have: com.apple.iWork.Pages.plist Nothing in Containers, though there is a Pages Cache file in ... Caches, and a Pages pref file.

Ah OK, I have a similar folder, except not .plist but .savedState. Didn't notice that before.

I've dropped that onto the Desktop and reopened Pages, and so far everything seems to be OK. I'll get back here if there's more funny business.

Thanks for your help, everyone, and the info re Save As etc. It's nice to know that I'm intuitively doing the right thing in that regard.