Router drops connectivity

[trevor]

Whenever I've had ADSL in the past, the ISP has provided the modem, and I provide the router. This split function works well. I wonder if it would be helpful for you to separate the two?

You keep calling the device in question a 'router', when in fact it is a modem AND router. And when you say things like:

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp I didn't realise that Apple's Airport Express isn't actually an ADSL router...so as soon as that arrives, I'll put it up for sale if it has no useful added functionality.

...it makes me think that you believe that the two functions (modulating/demodulating and routing) must perforce be done in the same device. That is not the case, and in fact I would argue that it is a poor idea, at least when you can't set a device to act as only a modem or only a router.

If you CAN set the device to perform only one function, then try using your old Netgear DG834G v3 as the modem, and your new Netgear DG834G v5 as a router. Does that work properly? Then the routing functions in your old Netgear have failed.

Trevor

[zzzuppp]

Hmm, interesting idea. Would I have to connect them in some way? (there are 4 ethernet ports on the back of each for direct connection to computers).Not sure if I can separate out their functions...

The Airport would be a better bet for using as the wireless 'router', since that's what it's meant for. I have a few days grace before I need to send it back to Apple. Might solve my initial problem, if the problem is the wifi signal from the 'old' Netgear (v3) dropping (but it doesn't seem like it, since the connection drops even with direct ethernet connection).
Looking around the net, the v5 of the Netgear DG834G seems to have caused a lot of people a lot of problems.

By the way Trevor, the Netgear DG834G (which is the most commonly used 'router' in the UK) is called a 'router' by everyone- online, engineers, ISPs....

[trevor]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp By the way Trevor, the Netgear DG834G (which is the most commonly used 'router' in the UK) is called a 'router' by everyone- online, engineers, ISPs....

Sure, because that is one of it's functions. But it's not a complete name. Netgear properly calls it a "Wireless-G Router with Built-in DSL Modem" in places like it's product datasheet, and I think that the 'with Built-in DSL Modem' part is rather important. Most routers don't have a built-in modem, and I don't expect routers to have that feature--it's not unusual but it is non-standard.

Trevor

[agentx]

Have to ask....Did you enter your ADSL username & password on the new router ?
You need to Login to router, and set it up it will not just magically connect as ADSL generally needs the Login details to connect. You will of course need to configure Wirelss settings too.

[agentx]

Sorry to say Trevor that in the UK "most" high street routers sold are ADSL modem/router combos with a few DSL versions for us cable folks.

[benwiggy]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp Tried a different router today, which I just bought brand new, to test the ongoing problem, and that won't even connect to ADSL? WTF? It's the selfsame model as the old one (Netgear DG834G, only the new one is v5 as opposed to my old v3). When I plug it all in, the green light flashes at 2Hz, then at 4Hz (trying to establish ADSL link) but never gets there. When I plug back the old router, it gets ADSL, using the same cables, straight off.

You will need to configure the router to set it up for your connection. Probably through a web browser, using the IP address of the router/modem.

Another thing: it's not clear whether you have tried using Ethernet cable rather than wireless? This might give some indication of whether the problem is the wireless router itself or the ADSL connection. If the connection still drops when you are wired, then I suspect it is something that your ISP or Telco needs to get involve with.

Quote: Originally Posted by trevor ...it makes me think that you believe that the two functions must perforce be done in the same device.

Can I just say it's good to see the word "perforce" being used? Lovely!

[zzzuppp]

OK, a few developments....
New Router-is basically 'not working ' according to Netgear, who I phoned after trying everything else. I did all the right things, put in the right addresses etc, it just doesn't work. So back to the factory it goes.

Old router.
Rang my ISP today to try and see if they could help with new router, and they said 'your connection is going up and down crazily'.Yes, I knew that, thanks.

And it's basically because BT upgraded all the local lines before Christmas, which the ISP warned me about, saying it would basically improve things. It's since then that we've had problems, and I rang them before Christmas to report the dropouts etc, and ask if it was somehow connected with the upgrade.
Back then they said 'no' and that we needed to check all the filters/cables/modem/router before requesting an engineer (which is why I bought a new router to test things).
Today they said 'oh, it's because of the upgrade that you're getting all these dropouts; tell you what, we'll reset it to the old and then things will be fine'.
Which will hopefully be by Monday or Tuesday.

Grrrr. I feel like charging them for the cost of a new Netgear router and an Airport Express, both of which I bought to try and test/solve the problem, as they suggested, not to mention all the time and stress expended on the problem.
Anyway, thanks as ever for your help and advice, folks.

[agentx]

Welcome to the complex world of networking , TBH nothing is trivial in that world !

As such you cannot blame the ISP/BT for you buying an Airport Express which clearly was a fault of yours and that fact your had chimed in here as well you could have asked for advice.

DOA Routers are not that common so you will more than likely find the router is fine and it is a line problem caused by BT upgrades/works/etc.

Who is your ISP ?
Why would you want to downgrade a line ! the whole idea of BT re-wiring cabinets and bringing things up to date is to improve line speeds in rural areas.
Your ISP should be fighting your corner with BT to find out what the issue actually is ! Of course generally they may fob you off/pass blame etc and couple this with dealing with BT who are one of the most difficult/unreliable companies to deal with unless you have everything with them ( Phone. Internet, Lines etc).

One key area that makes a big difference on ADSL connections is adjusting MTU on router to help provide a more stable connection. This is sort of pot luck unless you have all the right network tools but hey it is what i do when I have to help out/support home connection issues.

If the Netgear is faulty (DOA) you should be able to get a FULL refund. It is your consumer rights and all that, if they refuse they are breaking Sale of Goods Act (UK law).
http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.uk/faultygoods.html

See how it goes next week and report back with any progress.

PS. I have been responsible for installing 100s of ADSL, SDSL, FTTC, routers, modems, firewalls etc and it is rarely straightforward due to so many factors being involved. So you are not alone ;-)

[agentx]

I think you need to lean on ISP and try and get some definitive information from them of what the problem actually is.

[zzzuppp]

I've been thinking much the same myself, agentx.

My ISP is ICUK, I chose them because I had had three frankly appalling years with Tiscali during which they were subsumed into the even worse TalkTalk. I did some hunting around, and ICUK (a year or so back) had the highest rating among UK providers, but my experience has been pretty bumpy. The first month I was with them we had no phone line, they blamed BT and/or TalkTalk, TalkTalk blamed ICUK, BT blamed everyone, and we were stuck in the crossfire and carried the costs. Since then there have been a few other problems, this latest one being the worst yet.

BTW, this is what they first emailed me with back in November re changes-

"Dear Customer, Over the past 12 months, ICUK has invested heavily with BT in our broadband infrastructure with a new backbone network, which now enables us to offer a wider product range, fibre services and support improvements.

As part of this upgrade, which will take place tomorrow (01/12/2011), your service will automatically switch to the new network. During this period, you may need to reboot your router if you lose connectivity to the Internet. Once rebooted, you should notice improvements in speed on your broadband connection. You will *not* need to change your broadband username within your router."

It's since that change that we've had problems. Our speed hasn't changed with any noticeable significance, and instead the dropouts have been occurring.And no, we can't get the 'fibre services' because they aint happening round here. Today they kind of explained it as being because we are in a village far out in the sticks with such a low signal (my top download speed is around 1 Mbps), with old wiring which they aren't going to update in a rush.

At least ICUK are helpful when you phone them and not reading from a script in Delhi, and they're fairly Mac-friendly.

Re the new Netgear-I bought it online, I expect to get a full refund.

Re MTUs-how do I go about adjusting those then?

[trevor]

Quote: Originally Posted by zzzuppp Re MTUs-how do I go about adjusting those then?

In Snow Leopard (which is what I'm using) it's System Preferences > Network > select "Airport" (in Lion that would be called "WiFi") > click the Advanced button > click the "Ethernet" tab > set 'Configure' to 'Manually' > set MTU to 'Custom' > enter the new MTU in the box and click OK > Click "Apply".

Some fairly common custom DSL MTU settings are:

1492
1450
1400

If you're guessing, start with the higher numbers and work your way down. But your ISP should be able to tell you definitively what the MTU is supposed to be set at.

Trevor

[trevor]

Here's a screenshot found online that appears to be from Lion, and that looks like instead of 'Ethernet' it's called 'Hardware'. And of course, 'Airport' is called 'WiFi'.



Trevor

[zzzuppp]

I've just sent a grumpy email to my ISP asking them, among other things, what the optimum MTU setting should be.

[agentx]

They Often cannot tell you the optimum MTU as it is very much based on your specific location.

[zzzuppp]

They've said it should be the standard 1500, which is what it's set to.

[agentx]

Yes your internal LAN side is generally 1500. But PPPoA has a max of 1492.
Look just forget MTU it can be a confusing topic.

On slower/unstable connections you can get more fragmentation on the ADSL connection/link to ISP so you tend to take down the MTU to smaller size packet as I said this is deep network geek stuff and may not be worth perusing.

[agentx]

An example is my rural ADSL MTU is 1452 or 1430 on a few connections. But some Re fine with 1492. It is a dark art :-)

[zzzuppp]

I could give it a try. How easily will I know if it's making a difference? My signal is so random that it's difficult to trust anything.
Example-On Friday night we lost our ADSL completely for over four hours. I assumed it might be something to do with the switch back to the pre-upgrade situation. But when I spoke to ICUK, they said it was nothing to do with them but some local glitch. We get lots of those.

[agentx]

So did they imply that you were being moved from 20cn network to 21cn ?

http://www.icukhosting.co.uk/broadband/home_adsl.asp
Speeds explained page

[zzzuppp]

No numbers were ever mentioned, so I haven't the faintest idea.
One good thing about ICUK is that you get a customer page where you can check all the goings-on with your service, but I don't think it goes into network technicalities. I'll have a look though.