Generic OS X Troubleshooting List - Page 6

hayne · 08-22-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by tlarkin I am sure at one point a lot of you might have seen a senerio like this. Boot into single user mode and run fsck. It goes through and fixes a few minor things. It says file system modified after you complete it. You run it in an endless loop. I have run fsck about 30 times on a mac and it will say system modified over and over again in an endless loop. What would we recomend at that point on the troubleshooting list?

That is what the "If fsck/Disk Utility can't fix your problem" part at the bottom is about.

Quote:


	I have found fsck to be buggy at times and sometimes it says it fixes things but its obvious it doesn't always work that way.

It tries to fix things but some things it just can't fix.

WillyT · 08-23-2003, 09:25 AM

One thing I hadn't seen mentioned is sometimes fsck will return with

***** FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED *****

***** REBOOT NOW *****

Your should reboot with reboot -n

If you just run it again without rebooting the fix will not take.

hayne · 08-23-2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by WillyT One thing I hadn't seen mentioned is sometimes fsck will return with *** FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED * * REBOOT NOW *** You should reboot with reboot -n

But if it says that the file system was modified, then you should repeat the 'fsck' until it says that the disk appears to be okay. That is what the above troubleshooting instructions say.
So your recommendation to use the "-n" option is not relevant. Note that the /etc/rc.boot script itself does a 'sync' after doing 'fsck' if there were no problems found.

WillyT · 08-23-2003, 10:00 PM

Well when fsck tells me to reboot I reboot to single-user and run it again.

I've not seen the reboot message in a long time so it "may" be from 10.1 and gone with 10.2?

hayne · 08-24-2003, 01:35 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by WillyT Well when fsck tells me to reboot I reboot to single-user and run it again.

It is not necessary to reboot before running 'fsck' again. In fact, as your comment abive indicates, it presents some issues re sync-ing. Instead, just run the same command (/sbin/fsck -y) at the prompt and repeat until it says the disk is okay (i.e. no modifications).

WillyT · 08-24-2003, 08:20 AM

hayne

Is fsck in error when it says to REBOOT NOW? Or are the Apple instructions incomplete?

Personally I tend to trust the programmer (R & D) more than the doc writer (Sales).

The one time fsck didn't/couldn't fix my HD problem it was spewing the REBOOT NOW message and I didn't notice it till I had run it several more times. Norton choked on it several times but eventually straightened it out. The next time I saw the reboot message I did what it said and came out ok. As far as exact error messages I've slept since then.

hayne · 08-24-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by WillyT Is fsck in error when it says to REBOOT NOW? Or are the Apple instructions incomplete? Personally I tend to trust the programmer (R & D) more than the doc writer (Sales).

No - I wouldn't say it is in error. But it is better to re-run 'fsck' before rebooting.

The docs are not written by sales people - they are usually written by tech writers who work in close cooperation with the programmers. Programmers' primary concern is with creating software that works correctly - not with writing easy-to-follow instructions for the users. Especially for situations which will be unusual for most people (i.e. the "expected" way is to boot of the CD and use Disk Utility).

The instructions given by the script /etc/rc.boot are minimal yet are far more than one would usually expect to get from a script that is noemally only seen by system administrators. Usually such a script would give zero instructions - the user (i.e. system administrator) would be expected to know what to do.

sao · 08-26-2003, 02:09 PM

I would still add booting in verbose mode, log file examination and the command dmesg to the list because, even as a newbie wouldn't understand about them, he could always show the results to someone who knows or copy/paste the results in a forum to seek help.

PS: Also, I would add as the last item:
"if you feel lazy about following the list, just post your problem at MacOS X Hints forums"...

yellow · 08-26-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by sao PS: Also, I would add as the last item: "if you feel lazy about following the list, just post your problem at MacOS X Hints forums"...

Heh. And don't forget "Make your check payable to [insert helper's name here]."

petey · 08-27-2003, 05:35 AM

fix the entry on fsck?

i don't feel competent to give complete directions. so the options are:

- just say "run fsck from single user mode" and let folks who already understand do this.

- link to the appropriate Apple document (anyone know what that URL might be?)

- someone else (hayne) write up a very concise step by step set of instructions, that won't dwarf the rest of the list.

fix the entry on zapping PRAM

so what's the deal here? is PRAM a subset of NVRAM? if so, we can tell people to just reset NVRAM instead of the old-style resetting PRAM. or do folks have to do both?

and anyone know the link to the Apple doc on resetting NVRAM, or know the precise instructions? is it reset-nvram, reset-all, mac-boot?

hayne · 08-27-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by petey fix the entry on fsck? i don't feel competent to give complete directions. so the options are: - just say "run fsck from single user mode" and let folks who already understand do this. - link to the appropriate Apple document (anyone know what that URL might be?) - someone else (hayne) write up a very concise step by step set of instructions, that won't dwarf the rest of the list.

I think the section on "Check/fix the filesystem" that was written by mbrzostowski on 08-22 is good. Note that it does have a link to the Apple doc.

yellow · 08-27-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by petey fix the entry on fsck? - just say "run fsck from single user mode" and let folks who already understand do this.

On a recent phone call to Apple Support I was told in passing by the techie that the best use of file system checking was done off the CD rather than booting into S.U.M.. It didn't even register in my brain and the call was over before even thought to ask what his reasons were. Does this strike anyone as a particularly noteworthy wise information (based on experience of comprehensive knowledge of Darwin, hayne/mT I'm looking in your direction) or typical techie mysticism (for someone who types in keywords and advises you on how to 'fix' your problem)?

sao · 08-27-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:


	petey wrote: fix the entry on fsck? -link to the appropriate Apple document (anyone know what that URL might be?)

"Mac OS X: About Using Disk Utility and fsck for File System Maintenance"
(Modified 3/5/03)

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106214

Quote:


	petey wrote: and anyone know the link to the Apple doc on resetting NVRAM

"Macintosh: How to Reset PRAM and NVRAM"
(Modified: 6/16/03)

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=2238

and also:

Resetting NVRAM in Open Firmware
(If your computer is Open Firmware-based and you are unable to reset NVRAM as described in the above link)

"Macintosh: Computer Starts to Text-Based Open Firmware Screen"

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642

Quote:


	petey wrote: is it reset-nvram, reset-all, mac-boot?

Code:

0 > reset-nvram 
Press Return 
0 > reset-all 
Press Return

The reset-all command should cause the computer to restart. If this occurs, you have successfully reset the Open Firmware settings.

mervTormel · 08-27-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by yellow On a recent phone call to Apple Support I was told in passing by the techie that the best use of file system checking was done off the CD rather than booting into S.U.M...

i believe this is to insulate the user from the CLI and to expedite the call to closure.

SUM fsck is fine.

i believe sao has provided links to the definitive docs in these matters, above. anything else is just so much chin music.

tlarkin · 09-03-2003, 01:26 PM

You may want to note that PRAM is a subset of NVRAM.

FYI

Craig R. Arko · 09-09-2003, 03:44 PM

Is this about ready to put up a final version, based on Petey's release candidate and a few of the comments? If so, I'll try to post it in the next couple of days for final whacks and talk to Rob about where to put the GM.

We should have our final Jag list done before Panther ships, I suppose.

hayne · 09-09-2003, 05:29 PM

Yeah - I'd say it is ready for public release.

tlarkin · 09-09-2003, 05:57 PM

As long as we have the ESD guidlines and the data loss disclaimers I'd say its ready to roll out as well.

We would want to protect this site and the people that use it, so disclaimers and safety guidlines should be implemented.

petey · 09-10-2003, 07:25 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by Craig R. Arko Is this about ready to put up a final version, based on Petey's release candidate and a few of the comments? If so, I'll try to post it in the next couple of days for final whacks and talk to Rob about where to put the GM. We should have our final Jag list done before Panther ships, I suppose.

Craig,

i'll put the list together when i get a chunk of free time. if you don't want to wait, feel free to do it yourself.

and i know you're making a joke, but the list really shouldn't be affected much by Panther.

macmath · 09-12-2003, 08:52 PM

Something that might be worth adding is to

"Do a search on these forums."

In the past two days I have found 2-3 solutions to people's problems by doing a good search of these forums. A lot of problems have already been discussed and answered.

The only thing wrong with adding this to the troubleshooting list is that it makes it sound like we are saying something akin to RTFM, which is not always said with a nice tone.

[Edited to say: Apologies if this has already been mentioned...I don't remember and don't want to have to read through 6 pages.]

08-23-2003, 09:25 AM	#102
WillyT Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Midwest Not quite Normal Posts: 416	More fsck One thing I hadn't seen mentioned is sometimes fsck will return with *** FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED * * REBOOT NOW *** Your should reboot with reboot -n If you just run it again without rebooting the fix will not take. __________________ I have a Reason3 not to be grumpy and now I have a Rosegarden that works. Willy

08-23-2003, 10:00 PM	#104
WillyT Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Midwest Not quite Normal Posts: 416	Well when fsck tells me to reboot I reboot to single-user and run it again. I've not seen the reboot message in a long time so it "may" be from 10.1 and gone with 10.2? __________________ I have a Reason3 not to be grumpy and now I have a Rosegarden that works. Willy

08-24-2003, 08:20 AM	#106
WillyT Major Leaguer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Midwest Not quite Normal Posts: 416	The world goes round in circles. hayne Is fsck in error when it says to REBOOT NOW? Or are the Apple instructions incomplete? Personally I tend to trust the programmer (R & D) more than the doc writer (Sales). The one time fsck didn't/couldn't fix my HD problem it was spewing the REBOOT NOW message and I didn't notice it till I had run it several more times. Norton choked on it several times but eventually straightened it out. The next time I saw the reboot message I did what it said and came out ok. As far as exact error messages I've slept since then. __________________ I have a Reason3 not to be grumpy and now I have a Rosegarden that works. Willy

08-26-2003, 02:09 PM	#108
sao Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 4,237	Job well done...Great "Troubleshooting List"...! I would still add booting in verbose mode, log file examination and the command dmesg to the list because, even as a newbie wouldn't understand about them, he could always show the results to someone who knows or copy/paste the results in a forum to seek help. PS: Also, I would add as the last item: "if you feel lazy about following the list, just post your problem at MacOS X Hints forums"...

08-27-2003, 05:35 AM	#110
petey All Star Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: peteyville Posts: 794	To Do List - requests for assistance fix the entry on fsck? i don't feel competent to give complete directions. so the options are: - just say "run fsck from single user mode" and let folks who already understand do this. - link to the appropriate Apple document (anyone know what that URL might be?) - someone else (hayne) write up a very concise step by step set of instructions, that won't dwarf the rest of the list. fix the entry on zapping PRAM so what's the deal here? is PRAM a subset of NVRAM? if so, we can tell people to just reset NVRAM instead of the old-style resetting PRAM. or do folks have to do both? and anyone know the link to the Apple doc on resetting NVRAM, or know the precise instructions? is it reset-nvram, reset-all, mac-boot?

09-03-2003, 01:26 PM	#115
tlarkin League Commissioner Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 11,352	You may want to note that PRAM is a subset of NVRAM. FYI __________________ sudo make me a sammich

09-09-2003, 03:44 PM	#116
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	Is this about ready to put up a final version, based on Petey's release candidate and a few of the comments? If so, I'll try to post it in the next couple of days for final whacks and talk to Rob about where to put the GM. We should have our final Jag list done before Panther ships, I suppose.

09-09-2003, 05:29 PM	#117
hayne Site Admin Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 32,473	roll the presses Yeah - I'd say it is ready for public release.

09-09-2003, 05:57 PM	#118
tlarkin League Commissioner Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 11,352	As long as we have the ESD guidlines and the data loss disclaimers I'd say its ready to roll out as well. We would want to protect this site and the people that use it, so disclaimers and safety guidlines should be implemented. __________________ sudo make me a sammich

09-12-2003, 08:52 PM	#120
macmath MVP Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 1,497	Something that might be worth adding is to "Do a search on these forums." In the past two days I have found 2-3 solutions to people's problems by doing a good search of these forums. A lot of problems have already been discussed and answered. The only thing wrong with adding this to the troubleshooting list is that it makes it sound like we are saying something akin to RTFM, which is not always said with a nice tone. [Edited to say: Apologies if this has already been mentioned...I don't remember and don't want to have to read through 6 pages.] Last edited by macmath; 09-12-2003 at 09:20 PM.