Reasons not to like the Mac App Store

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by benwiggy Giving your credit card details to a shop is now a hardship? Come on!

Wow. It's shocking to me that so many people today actually have this mindset. No disrespect to you intended. I'll hold my tongue for a while and see if anybody else jumps at the opportunity to give a full rebuttal to this statement.

[edalzell]

While I think that ThreeBKK and benwiggy are at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, I side more with benwiggy than I do with ThreeBKK.

ThreeBKK, have you never ordered online before? I order online all the time and am constantly giving out my credit card. Granted, I do do some research to make sure the vendor is well respected, but other than that, what's your issue?

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by fracai This is an unfortunate issue, but it's a somewhat understandable limitation.

Understandable?

Why are there different versions being created just for the MAS in the first place? I think it's because Apple is coercing developers to drop support for apps purchased prior to the App Store, and to get as many people tied into the MAS as possible, as quickly as possible. I think you'll find that any app released into the MAS will be treated as the "real" version, with abundant upgrades and support, while all prior or outside purchases are dealt with as bastard children.

[fracai]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeBKK Understandable?

Yes, regarding the MAS not upgrading already purchased apps, it's understandable.

In what way does it make sense that Apple would simply trust that the Bundle ID and version information that is found on your drive, without authenticating that it's valid to upgrade the app to the MAS version? Apple would have to handle the infrastructure related to license validation and free / paid upgrade paths for thousands of developers.

Instead, they recognize that the app is available so it can be marked as installed, but will only upgrade the app if a valid MAS receipt is available. Yes, developers have already run into problems with incorrectly checking the validity of this receipt, but that's on the developer side, not Apple's.

Apple might introduce an upgrade path for existing users, but there are plenty of issues that need to be ironed out before that occurs.

So, yes, at this point, it's understandable that existing apps aren't automatically managed by the MAS.

[ThreeBKK]

My issue was not with existing apps not being updated. I don't intend to use the store until I'm eventually forced to, so it's not an issue for me… yet. The issue I had was with this sort of lenient or permissive attitude toward App Store policies as characterized by your statement, "This is an unfortunate issue, but it's a somewhat understandable limitation."

[ThreeBKK]

Does anybody remember the Speed Download debacle that happened a few years ago between MacHeist and SD's developers? If you were following that, then you're well aware of the games that companies play with regard to licenses, where they were purchased, which upgrade discounts are given to which customers, and so on.

[fracai]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeBKK My issue was not with existing apps not being updated. I don't intend to use the store until I'm eventually forced to, so it's not an issue for me… yet. The issue I had was with this sort of lenient or permissive attitude toward App Store policies as characterized by your statement, "This is an unfortunate issue, but it's a somewhat understandable limitation."

So, to summarize, you don't have an issue with the opinion in what I said, just that my opinion isn't as severe as yours?
I was talking about one specific issue. The MAS does have issues. Some of those are big deals (apps like BareBones' being restricted in their functionality), others are less important (apps from a different installation source not being managed by the new system).

I'm being lenient on issues that aren't a big deal. Apple may add a procedure for upgrading existing users. They may decide it's not worth the effort. That would be unfortunate, but far from a killer.

Overall, keep in mind that so far the MAS hasn't taken anything away. While there are apps that have gone MAS exclusive, they aren't ones (as far as I'm aware) which have had to drop features in order to be submitted.

In addition, for the vast majority of users, the MAS, including all of its faults, is a better environment than existed before (app discovery, installation, updates).

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by fracai Overall, keep in mind that so far the MAS hasn't taken anything away. While there are apps that have gone MAS exclusive, they aren't ones (as far as I'm aware) which have had to drop features in order to be submitted.

I'll refer you back to this post. BBEdit and TextWrangler did lose features.

[edalzell]

Another data point, some vendors quite like it: http://blog.evernote.com/2011/01/07/...les-new-users/

[fracai]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeBKK I'll refer you back to this post. BBEdit and TextWrangler did lose features.

Two apps that are not exclusive to the MAS have dropped features, which you can still get directly from the BareBones site. This is why I specifically limited that sentence to non-exclusive apps. The MAS hasn't taken anything away.

You still aren't being forced to do anything. The MAS is a good option, but it's not for everybody.

[ThreeBKK]

Okay, I guess you've got a point. If, for some odd reason, you want to exclude the things that the MAS has taken away, then it hasn't taken anything away.

[Hal Itosis]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeBKK Yeah, but it's a little bit less great when purchased through the MAS. Did you read this? "In BBEdit and TextWrangler, authenticated saves (the ability to save changes to files that you do not own) and the command-line tools are not available in the App Store versions, in order to comply with Apple’s submission guidelines… " Hmm, I seem to recall that somebody in this thread suggested that Apple might try to lock users out of the file system, and also put pressure on developers to create alternate versions of their software to conform to Apple's desires. …and this is only the third day it's been open!

You just made me very angry. [i've tested it out, and you're quite right... that is pure shite.]

[fracai]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeBKK Okay, I guess you've got a point. If, for some odd reason, you want to exclude the things that the MAS has taken away, then it hasn't taken anything away.

And if you define an ocean as the only place I can drive my car then I can't drive anywhere.

[tlarkin]

Well considering I am a huge fan of Textwrangler for those reasons I am going to keep on using it, and the fact that the app store cannot upgrade existing apps I would have to go to the dev's home page anyway to download the new version.

Now, you see I was thinking about bundling all my scripts into functions and perhaps releasing a command line tool one of these days to streamline a lot of what a sys admin would do in OS X. However, I bet the app store would not host that app now that I have read this. Though that is something I still want to do, I just need to find the time to do it.

[mnewman]

When I was a kid I used to love to tinker with my '61 Volkswagen. I did all the maintenance myself and even added a tachometer and eight-track player.

When I open the hood of my current vehicle I know how to check fluid levels and that's about it. I wouldn't dream of performing maintenance or making modifications.

For many of us the "toy" aspect of one's vehicle has disappeared and they are now nothing but transportation appliances.

[hayne]

I wouldn't be too worried about the current restrictions on Mac App Store applications (e.g. those that forced the removal of some useful features from BBEdit). Apple had much more restrictive rules at the beginning of the iOS App Store as well. Apple always starts off small (restrictive) and then enlarges (allows more) as they figure out how things are going to work.

Note too that for the initial few months of the iPhone, Apple's official stance for 3rd-party apps was "do them as web apps" - there was no official way to create native apps for the iPhone. Then they figured out how to provide an API for 3rd-party programmers. And that API has gradually become more and more capable.

The main governing principle for the App Stores is that Apple is putting its reputation on the line along with the apps it makes available. Rule #1 is that the apps should do no harm. To make it easier to vet apps, you make more restrictive rules about what OS facilities the apps are allowed to use.

[ThreeBKK]

Thanks for the input hayne!

The circumstances surrounding the iOS App Store and the Mac App Store were very different at launch. With iOS, Apple had a new device type, running on a new OS platform, which they had a contractual obligation with AT&Crumpets to protect (i.e. keep locked down). Apple also wanted to protect battery longevity and constrain cell network data transfer amount and type. Plus, they had never done an App Store before, so many things still needed to be figured out. Because of all of this, like you said, they were very restrictive with the iOS App Store at first, then gradually loosened things up.

For Mac, on the other hand, none of those things needed to be dealt with by Apple, and I don't see them loosening anything up in the future. Those applications which were forced to remove functionality were already available to users before the MAS. If you look at the reasons why the iOS App Store policies were so restrictive, which policy among them applies to the Mac platform? None.

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by Hal Itosis You just made me very angry.

Oops! Sorry to provoke your ire.

Looks like you can get back the command-line tools by downloading something additional, outside of the MAS.

Authentication saves… well, you're just SOL for now.

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlarkin Now, you see I was thinking about bundling all my scripts into functions and perhaps releasing a command line tool one of these days to streamline a lot of what a sys admin would do in OS X.

Cool! Looking forward to that. Would be even better if you could supply a nice GUI with it.

[ThreeBKK]

Quote: Originally Posted by mnewman When I was a kid I used to love to tinker with my '61 Volkswagen. I did all the maintenance myself and even added a tachometer and eight-track player. When I open the hood of my current vehicle I know how to check fluid levels and that's about it. I wouldn't dream of performing maintenance or making modifications. For many of us the "toy" aspect of one's vehicle has disappeared and they are now nothing but transportation appliances.

Great story man. Now, bring it back around and illustrate how this relates to the MAS and what point you are trying to make. (I can make up my own moral to the story, but it might not be the moral that you intended.)