Mountain (or) Lion

acme.mail.order · 07-19-2012, 07:43 PM

With Mountain Lion just around the corner I'm trying to decide which way to go.

I'm presently running Snow Leopard Server on the desktop. My laptop is *just* out of the zone for ML.

Should I: (Desktop will get Server version in any case)

a) Put Lion on both machines.

b) Put ML on the Desktop, Lion on the laptop.

c) Get ML for both as it will probably work.

Opinions?

NaOH · 07-19-2012, 07:59 PM

I won't be able to run Mountain Lion since my machine misses the cutoff. I'm sufficiently content with Lion as it is. For my tastes, the perks and negatives of it in comparison to Snow Leopard are generally not the features or changes that receive attention. It's smaller changes which please or annoy me.

So while I can't say anything about Mountain Lion or what you should do, there is one hugely important thing I'll note: Keep a clone of Snow Leopard available.

Many of the changes from 10.6 to 10.7 are such that simply reverting the OS if you decide that's what you want is a pain. About two months ago I thought I wanted to re-try using Snow Leopard after seven months of Lion. After three days, I still didn't have 10.6 complete and was regularly booting into my 10.7 installation for one reason or another. A downgrade like this is something that typically just takes a few hours of my time. I gave up and accepted 10.7. On a certain level, that sounds more negative than I mean it since using 10.6 again furthered my appreciation for 10.7. But you get my point: Reverting is a pain, so keep a 10.6 clone handy.

benwiggy · 07-20-2012, 03:15 AM

For me, many of the advantages in Lion are the smaller, less-advertised features. There are lots of Finder improvements, particularly to copying, and Spotlight metatags are much easier to deal with. Some serious AppleScript improvements if you're into Cocoa-AppleScript stuff.
Personally, I like Resume, though it has its share of detractors. Auto-Save, too. If you want to use iCloud, then you'll want to upgrade.

However, there are some woeful bugs still to be fixed. I'm hoping that 10.7.5 will improve matters (as the subject areas seem to correspond). It remains to be seen how many more updates Lion will get after ML is released. It also remains to be seen whether those bugs are already fixed in ML.

There are methods already described for installing ML on "below-par" hardware. Usually involving making a new disk image of the installer with a modified file that contains the approved models.

The only feature that I'm particularly excited about in ML is Dictation. I'm in the middle of a PhD, so the ability to speak my thesis into Pages would be phenomenal.

I too have one Mac that doesn't make the cut, and one that does: I'll probably buy ML for the one that can take it and keep Lion on the other one.

NaOH: I'm intrigued. Why is Lion so much harder to downgrade?

NaOH · 07-20-2012, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwiggy


	For me, many of the advantages in Lion are the smaller, less-advertised features. There are lots of Finder improvements, particularly to copying, and Spotlight metatags are much easier to deal with. Some serious AppleScript improvements if you're into Cocoa-AppleScript stuff.

I would second this sentiment. Just the Finder ability to Move files (rather than Copy/Paste) is a little thing that's a huge boon to me. Many things for me are at an even simpler level. I find the Spotlight menu visually better simply because it's wider. That's even more useful to me than its support of Quick Look. And while this will probably sound banal, graphite-colored Good & Plenty-style buttons in dialogs were jarring in 10.6 compared to the newer, subtler rectangular buttons. For me, there are a bunch of these little improvements which I appreciate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwiggy


	However, there are some woeful bugs still to be fixed. I'm hoping that 10.7.5 will improve matters (as the subject areas seem to correspond). It remains to be seen how many more updates Lion will get after ML is released. It also remains to be seen whether those bugs are already fixed in ML.

I've got a big fear this annual release schedule could lead to decreased bug fixing if the shorter timeline shifts resources to the next big release. Put differently, who is the Cook/Ive/Johnson of software? Bug fixes coming from inexpensive OS updates isn't terrible, but it's not what I'd consider an ideal support setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwiggy


	The only feature that I'm particularly excited about in ML is Dictation. I'm in the middle of a PhD, so the ability to speak my thesis into Pages would be phenomenal.

I used the Dragon desktop software a bit on a friend's Mac running 10.7. It was quite good (even using an iPhone as the microphone). If Apple does it well, that's a great feature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwiggy


	NaOH: I'm intrigued. Why is Lion so much harder to downgrade?

I'm not going to remember all the details now, but it was a bunch of areas where, in essence, Migration Assistant doesn't work in reverse. This is significant since 10.6 can't be installed over 10.7. So I erased a drive, installed 10.6 from scratch, then had to re-install or manually transfer every application or file I wanted from 10.7. And much of that isn't even the "normal" process. Address Book data has to be imported from a vCard, I just remember moving locally stored email was a pain, some application preferences were unusable, and a bunch of other similar hassles. It was a death by a thousand cuts. And I did experience loss of functionality, like applications which were 10.7-only** and no contact syncing with iOS devices.

**I have iPhoto but don't use it except for helping friends/family who call with questions and for grabbing photos of my iPhone with the 10.7-only Photo Stream. I have the latest iPhoto, but the non-Mac App Store version, and I don't maintain an iPhoto Library file. It's version 9.3.1. I had to downgrade to (I think) 9.3 for use in 10.6. I'm pointing this out for others who may read this because I don't know if a 9.3.1 iPhoto Library from 10.7 will work under 10.6.

I feel like I'm reasonably tolerant and capable of dealing with the hiccups from an OS transition. When I hit the fourth day back in 10.6 and I was still running into reasons to boot into 10.7, I felt it was time to give up on the idea of moving back to 10.6. If I'd still had a clone of 10.6 from before I'd moved up to 10.7, I suspect the inconveniences would have been much fewer. I was months past the point when I still had a 10.6 clone.

ganbustein · 07-21-2012, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaOH


	I'm not going to remember all the details now, but it was a bunch of areas where, in essence, Migration Assistant doesn't work in reverse.

No, but Time Machine will.

NaOH · 07-21-2012, 04:56 AM

I didn't have a Time Machine backup with 10.6 data after issues with my backup drive. but that's definitely a point worth noting.

benwiggy · 07-21-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaOH


	it was a bunch of areas where, in essence, Migration Assistant doesn't work in reverse.

I would never trust Migration Assistant to know how to get data from a newer version of the OS. That's like knowing the future.

NaOH · 07-21-2012, 11:22 AM

I don't know that I've ever used Migration Assistant. My point, and why I said "in essence," was that files that would commonly work when manually migrating a setup didn't work. This was before discovering things like applications, preferences, and scripts which didn't work under 10.6. This was frustrating since Snow Leopard couldn't be installed over Lion.

07-19-2012, 07:43 PM	#1
acme.mail.order League Commissioner Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tokyo Posts: 6,045	Mountain (or) Lion With Mountain Lion just around the corner I'm trying to decide which way to go. I'm presently running Snow Leopard Server on the desktop. My laptop is just out of the zone for ML. Should I: (Desktop will get Server version in any case) a) Put Lion on both machines. b) Put ML on the Desktop, Lion on the laptop. c) Get ML for both as it will probably work. Opinions?

07-20-2012, 03:15 AM	#3
benwiggy League Commissioner Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,040	For me, many of the advantages in Lion are the smaller, less-advertised features. There are lots of Finder improvements, particularly to copying, and Spotlight metatags are much easier to deal with. Some serious AppleScript improvements if you're into Cocoa-AppleScript stuff. Personally, I like Resume, though it has its share of detractors. Auto-Save, too. If you want to use iCloud, then you'll want to upgrade. However, there are some woeful bugs still to be fixed. I'm hoping that 10.7.5 will improve matters (as the subject areas seem to correspond). It remains to be seen how many more updates Lion will get after ML is released. It also remains to be seen whether those bugs are already fixed in ML. There are methods already described for installing ML on "below-par" hardware. Usually involving making a new disk image of the installer with a modified file that contains the approved models. The only feature that I'm particularly excited about in ML is Dictation. I'm in the middle of a PhD, so the ability to speak my thesis into Pages would be phenomenal. I too have one Mac that doesn't make the cut, and one that does: I'll probably buy ML for the one that can take it and keep Lion on the other one. NaOH: I'm intrigued. Why is Lion so much harder to downgrade? Last edited by benwiggy; 07-20-2012 at 03:18 AM.

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07-19-2012, 07:59 PM	#2
NaOH Hall of Famer Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3,642	I won't be able to run Mountain Lion since my machine misses the cutoff. I'm sufficiently content with Lion as it is. For my tastes, the perks and negatives of it in comparison to Snow Leopard are generally not the features or changes that receive attention. It's smaller changes which please or annoy me. So while I can't say anything about Mountain Lion or what you should do, there is one hugely important thing I'll note: Keep a clone of Snow Leopard available. Many of the changes from 10.6 to 10.7 are such that simply reverting the OS if you decide that's what you want is a pain. About two months ago I thought I wanted to re-try using Snow Leopard after seven months of Lion. After three days, I still didn't have 10.6 complete and was regularly booting into my 10.7 installation for one reason or another. A downgrade like this is something that typically just takes a few hours of my time. I gave up and accepted 10.7. On a certain level, that sounds more negative than I mean it since using 10.6 again furthered my appreciation for 10.7. But you get my point: Reverting is a pain, so keep a 10.6 clone handy.

07-21-2012, 04:56 AM	#6
NaOH Hall of Famer Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3,642	I didn't have a Time Machine backup with 10.6 data after issues with my backup drive. but that's definitely a point worth noting.

07-21-2012, 11:22 AM	#8
NaOH Hall of Famer Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3,642	I don't know that I've ever used Migration Assistant. My point, and why I said "in essence," was that files that would commonly work when manually migrating a setup didn't work. This was before discovering things like applications, preferences, and scripts which didn't work under 10.6. This was frustrating since Snow Leopard couldn't be installed over Lion.