Problems booting from external firewire drive

serr · 11-14-2012, 11:32 AM

Here's a weird one...
I'm trying to help a buddy with a 3rd gen MBP and a new WD 'My Studio' firewire external drive.

He can mount and use the drive but is unable to boot from it. When starting up his machine with option, the drive doesn't show up as selection. The really odd part is the drive does work if plugged in with the USB cable!

The drive in question DOES work as expected on my 5th gen MBP with firewire. Further, I can stert my MBP in target disc mode and it will function as expected as a bootable external drive for his machine. The system in question was cloned with Carbon Copy Cloner. And again, it boots from my MBP.

I've tried different sets of cables (even though everything works on my system). I actually had him send the drive back for warranty replacement but of course the new one behaves the same way.

What could be the cause of apparently certain firewire drives not being bootable (but otherwise working) on a 3rd gen MBP? The intended workflow is to be studio/audio work so using the USB connection for a workaround would not be an option.

Any clues? Windows is not even installed on any of these machines!

DeltaMac · 11-14-2012, 12:39 PM

Lotsa questions...
What OS X version is the bootable one on that FW drive?

Does that FW drive pass Repair Disk in Disk Utility, while attached to your friend's MBPro?

If you connect that firewire drive directly to your buddy's MBPro (is it connected to FW400 or FW800?), then boot to the OS X installer, can you select the FW hard drive as a destination for the install? (or does an error message appear that your drive can't be used, or something similar?)
If that drive is mounted on your friend's MBPro - can you select it as a boot drive in System Preferences/Startup Disk?
If yes, can you boot to that disk with a simple restart?

serr · 11-14-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	Lotsa questions... What OS X version is the bootable one on that FW drive?

10.6.8

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	Does that FW drive pass Repair Disk in Disk Utility, while attached to your friend's MBPro?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	If you connect that firewire drive directly to your buddy's MBPro (is it connected to FW400 or FW800?), then boot to the OS X installer, can you select the FW hard drive as a destination for the install? (or does an error message appear that your drive can't be used, or something similar?)

I'll get back to you on that. He has it back at the moment

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	If that drive is mounted on your friend's MBPro - can you select it as a boot drive in System Preferences/Startup Disk?

Yes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	If yes, can you boot to that disk with a simple restart?

No. You can select the system but the computer will then act like it can't find it at restart and end up starting from it's normal system.

DeltaMac · 11-14-2012, 01:22 PM

But then, if you connect the drive to YOUR Mac, then start up yours in Target Disk Mode - then the external is available, and also successfully boots your friend's Mac?

I guess I'm a little dense about this, so I'll ask the question:
How is it that your friend's "workflow" somehow precludes booting through USB?
If the Firewire does allow use for data, you can continue with that with a Firewire drive (obviously would mean a second device)
And, if booting is not happening while the drive is directly connected, then perhaps there's some fault in the port that is not allowing full speed on Firewire.

You weren't too clear with your answer - so I'll ask this a different way:
If the firewire drive is connected to YOUR Mac, started to Target Disk Mode.
Firewire connection to your friend's Mac, and you said that the firewire drive shows as a choice for booting.
Did you verify that, in fact, your friend's Mac will boot to the firewire connection, ultimately booting to that external firewire drive using Target Boot mode - and your friend's Mac does actually boot to that?

serr · 11-14-2012, 01:39 PM

I appreciate your time and help DeltaMac!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	But then, if you connect the drive to YOUR Mac, then start up yours in Target Disk Mode - then the external is available, and also successfully boots your friend's Mac? I guess I'm a little dense about this, so I'll ask the question: How is it that your friend's "workflow" somehow precludes booting through USB?

For now I want to focus on this issue. If the conclusion is hardware failure (logic board), I'll entertain ideas for workarounds then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	If the Firewire does allow use for data, you can continue with that with a Firewire drive (obviously would mean a second device) And, if booting is not happening while the drive is directly connected, then perhaps there's some fault in the port that is not allowing full speed on Firewire. You weren't too clear with your answer - so I'll ask this a different way: If the firewire drive is connected to YOUR Mac, started to Target Disk Mode. Firewire connection to your friend's Mac, and you said that the firewire drive shows as a choice for booting. Did you verify that, in fact, your friend's Mac will boot to the firewire connection, ultimately booting to that external firewire drive using Target Boot mode - and your friend's Mac does actually boot to that?

OK, I didn't go that far. I just started my machine in target disc mode and booted his from my system. To say it another way, I tried my machine as a firewire drive instead of the external as an A/B test on his system. Not the complete daisy chain including the external that you described.

I'll be getting his system back later on but in the mean time...

If the premise is that the drive (2 in a row now) is bad... Then why can I boot my computer from it?

If the premise is that the firewire port is failing on his machine... Then why can I successfully boot his computer from my machine running in target disc mode?

If the premise is that this is a software issue as opposed to hardware... Then what could have become corrupt to prevent successful operation with firewire but not affect USB operation?
Follow-up to that: Are there files that are referenced on the internal hard drive even when booting from an external? (ie. Is it even possible for this to be a software issue?)

DeltaMac · 11-14-2012, 04:22 PM

You only have a single firewire port on your own MBPro.
If you have the Firewire drive connected, and then boot to Target Disk mode, there's no way to connect to your MBPro to share the external hard drive.
If you connected from a second firewire port on the external, then that is a direct connection, bypassing the target disk mode.

You can't boot to an external firewire drive (through target disk mode) when there's only one Firewire port on the host computer (your MBPro).
That port would already be in use to connect the external drive.

Are you completely sure that you were booted to the EXTERNAL, and not booted to your own internal drive in your MBPro?
How (in detail) were you connecting your friend's Mac to YOUR Mac, and also attached to the external

serr · 11-14-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMac


	You only have a single firewire port on your own MBPro. If you have the Firewire drive connected, and then boot to Target Disk mode, there's no way to connect to your MBPro to share the external hard drive. If you connected from a second firewire port on the external, then that is a direct connection, bypassing the target disk mode. You can't boot to an external firewire drive (through target disk mode) when there's only one Firewire port on the host computer (your MBPro). That port would already be in use to connect the external drive. Are you completely sure that you were booted to the EXTERNAL, and not booted to your own internal drive in your MBPro? How (in detail) were you connecting your friend's Mac to YOUR Mac, and also attached to the external

Correct, I wouldn't have even been able to do that daisy chain experiment. I was just responding to your query.

Quite sure about the OS I was booting to.

details:
firewire 800 for all configurations

My MBP <- firewire HD (with OS)
no issues

His gen 3 MBP <- firewire HD (with OS)
drive mounts
drive is selectable under Startup Disk but the machine will ultimately start from it's internal HD
external system is not seen starting the machine up with option mode

His gen 3 MBP <- My MBP (in target disk mode)
no issues (boots from target system OS)

DeltaMac · 11-14-2012, 07:58 PM

Yes, but, as I said, you can't boot from the external hard drive in Target Disk mode - because the only way you can connect from the gen3 MBP is
Gen 3 MBP -> Gen5 MBP -> external
(this connection is not possible with Firewire)

If your gen5 had 2 firewire ports, then you could boot to the external.
So, you can't test that configuration.

Here's what you should try, and will likely be an explanation:
Boot the gen3 MBPro to the OS X installer. With the W-D external attached, click through a couple of screens, until you get to a screen that allows you to select the destination.
If the drive can't boot the system, the installer will probably tell you on that screen that the drive can't have OSX installed, because it won't boot.
EVEN though it works fine on your own MBPro, the older one may provide a reason why it won't boot, or simply tell you it can't be used.
OR (even more important) it may allow you to select that external - and you then continue with the install (which will simply install a full system on top of what you have, not affecting other apps or documents or music that may already be there) - and, if successful, may get the drive to boot properly when it completes the reinstall.

Well, that also means that you need to get to that gen3 MBPro. Let me know what you find out.

11-14-2012, 11:32 AM	#1
serr Prospect Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 39	Problems booting from external firewire drive Here's a weird one... I'm trying to help a buddy with a 3rd gen MBP and a new WD 'My Studio' firewire external drive. He can mount and use the drive but is unable to boot from it. When starting up his machine with option, the drive doesn't show up as selection. The really odd part is the drive does work if plugged in with the USB cable! The drive in question DOES work as expected on my 5th gen MBP with firewire. Further, I can stert my MBP in target disc mode and it will function as expected as a bootable external drive for his machine. The system in question was cloned with Carbon Copy Cloner. And again, it boots from my MBP. I've tried different sets of cables (even though everything works on my system). I actually had him send the drive back for warranty replacement but of course the new one behaves the same way. What could be the cause of apparently certain firewire drives not being bootable (but otherwise working) on a 3rd gen MBP? The intended workflow is to be studio/audio work so using the USB connection for a workaround would not be an option. Any clues? Windows is not even installed on any of these machines!

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11-14-2012, 12:39 PM	#2
DeltaMac League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,958	Lotsa questions... What OS X version is the bootable one on that FW drive? Does that FW drive pass Repair Disk in Disk Utility, while attached to your friend's MBPro? If you connect that firewire drive directly to your buddy's MBPro (is it connected to FW400 or FW800?), then boot to the OS X installer, can you select the FW hard drive as a destination for the install? (or does an error message appear that your drive can't be used, or something similar?) If that drive is mounted on your friend's MBPro - can you select it as a boot drive in System Preferences/Startup Disk? If yes, can you boot to that disk with a simple restart?

11-14-2012, 01:22 PM	#4
DeltaMac League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,958	But then, if you connect the drive to YOUR Mac, then start up yours in Target Disk Mode - then the external is available, and also successfully boots your friend's Mac? I guess I'm a little dense about this, so I'll ask the question: How is it that your friend's "workflow" somehow precludes booting through USB? If the Firewire does allow use for data, you can continue with that with a Firewire drive (obviously would mean a second device) And, if booting is not happening while the drive is directly connected, then perhaps there's some fault in the port that is not allowing full speed on Firewire. You weren't too clear with your answer - so I'll ask this a different way: If the firewire drive is connected to YOUR Mac, started to Target Disk Mode. Firewire connection to your friend's Mac, and you said that the firewire drive shows as a choice for booting. Did you verify that, in fact, your friend's Mac will boot to the firewire connection, ultimately booting to that external firewire drive using Target Boot mode - and your friend's Mac does actually boot to that?

11-14-2012, 04:22 PM	#6
DeltaMac League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,958	You only have a single firewire port on your own MBPro. If you have the Firewire drive connected, and then boot to Target Disk mode, there's no way to connect to your MBPro to share the external hard drive. If you connected from a second firewire port on the external, then that is a direct connection, bypassing the target disk mode. You can't boot to an external firewire drive (through target disk mode) when there's only one Firewire port on the host computer (your MBPro). That port would already be in use to connect the external drive. Are you completely sure that you were booted to the EXTERNAL, and not booted to your own internal drive in your MBPro? How (in detail) were you connecting your friend's Mac to YOUR Mac, and also attached to the external

11-14-2012, 07:58 PM	#8
DeltaMac League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,958	Yes, but, as I said, you can't boot from the external hard drive in Target Disk mode - because the only way you can connect from the gen3 MBP is Gen 3 MBP -> Gen5 MBP -> external (this connection is not possible with Firewire) If your gen5 had 2 firewire ports, then you could boot to the external. So, you can't test that configuration. Here's what you should try, and will likely be an explanation: Boot the gen3 MBPro to the OS X installer. With the W-D external attached, click through a couple of screens, until you get to a screen that allows you to select the destination. If the drive can't boot the system, the installer will probably tell you on that screen that the drive can't have OSX installed, because it won't boot. EVEN though it works fine on your own MBPro, the older one may provide a reason why it won't boot, or simply tell you it can't be used. OR (even more important) it may allow you to select that external - and you then continue with the install (which will simply install a full system on top of what you have, not affecting other apps or documents or music that may already be there) - and, if successful, may get the drive to boot properly when it completes the reinstall. Well, that also means that you need to get to that gen3 MBPro. Let me know what you find out.