Debian and Mac OS X

thatch · 01-19-2003, 08:18 PM

I became a bit intrigued by some comments from Glanz in another thread and asked a few off topic questions about having Debian/GNU linux on a spare partition. But I never got a reply so I thought I better research a bit on my own.

After doing just that and finding a lot of info, I have a question about the pre-partitioning for this as noted here where it says you can install it if you have some spare partitions but you need to have a placeholder partition at the beginning of the scheme before any Mac partitions. That's a bit confusing.

I gather that you'd need to repartition anyway then because most of us Mac users aren't going to just happen to have an empty, small partition at the beginning of our drives hanging around waiting for something like this which makes the whole idea of adding debian linux to an existing Mac OS install without repartitioning kind of moot.

Also, the instructions imply that debian will need to be on a regular HFS partition, not HFS+, and that in order to share files across with my existing Mac partitions, an exchange partition could be helpful. That complicates things even more than I had anticipated.

Apparently, later on in the install process, you are able to create more linux partitions for whatever you need. And to be a fully functional install, a root partition, swap partition and at least one other will be necessary. The original placeholder partition will be changed and reused somewhere right about then too. But it's still getting more slicey and dicey by the moment.

My rig has six partitions currently and two of them are free space but are not at the beginning of the disk. Looks like for me, I'd have to clone all my stuff off to my external and then do the partition scheme from scratch, then clone my stuff back, then install debian, then partition some more and continue on with the rest of the installation. Yikes!

Anyone with any thoughts or knowledge about any of this, I would sure like to hear from you. TIA!

Glanz · 01-19-2003, 08:58 PM

This time I will get back to you. I sent a letter out to some friends at Debian.org..... I have another iBook at work that belongs to the University on which I installed Debian, but without partitions for OS X. In other words, the whole drive is occupied by Debian. Since I have an enormous amount of scientific apps on it, and several data bases for the info they produce, I have 9GB taken by Debian on a 15 GB hard drive.

Normally when one installs Debian to a partition (via CD), a total reinstallation of OS X is necessary. Same with a network install.

Get ready for a Yaboot adventure...... There's a way to do this no matter where the partition is located. I'll look into it.

On a PC, they say the limit is 6 operating systems, but when I was writing Linux articles for extremetech.com, I and Masnick managed to install many more than that. I had 12 completely bootable Linux distros installed using a combo of Grub and a chain booting method I invented.

I'll have to look into the available boot managers for the mac and see what's up. The only reason I finally bought a Mac was because of OS X (unix), Fink, which I consider to be a real jewel of of a project, and the iBook which is without doubt the best little portable I've ever owned. A winning combo....

Really though, Fink compares very nicely to Debian in many ways..., and if you're a bit patient, FreeBSD ports will fill the gaps when more come out. I must admit though, the Debian portable smokes.

Another good one is Gentoo Linux which can be had with a net install. The compilation is tedious, albeit exact, and requires the user's presence for eight of 12 hours of installation..... I did that one to for a friend.

Here are some links:::::::

http://people.debian.org/~branden/ibook.html

http://debian-imac.sourceforge.net/

http://penguinppc.org/projects/

http://penguinppc.org/projects/yaboo...t-howto.shtml/

Glanz · 01-19-2003, 09:12 PM

Oh! Sorry for not getting back sooner. I've got Genome data coming out of my ears and I get lost in that universe sometimes.

http://www.wrietman.com/ibook/index.html?debian

1. Which commands can I use?

h = help
p = print the partition table
P = (print ordered by base address)
i = initialize partition map
s = change size of partition map
c = create new partition (standard MkLinux type)
C = (create with type also specified)
n = (re)name a partition
d = delete a partition
r = reorder partition entry in map
w = write the partition table
q = quit editing (don't save changes)
? = help

2. What does a partition map look like?

Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/hda'

#: type name length base ( size )
1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
2: Apple_Driver43*Macintosh 54 @ 64
3: Apple_Driver43*Macintosh 74 @ 118
4: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 54 @ 192
5: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 74 @ 246
6: Apple_Driver_IOKit Macintosh 512 @ 320
7: Apple_Patches Patch Partition 512 @ 832
8: Apple_HFS MacOS 1982464 @ 1344 (968.0M)
9: Apple_HFS Bootstrap 65536 @ 1983808 ( 32.0M)
10: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 swap 131072 @ 2049344 ( 64.0M)
11: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 root 4177030 @ 2180416 ( 2.0G)

Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=6357455 (3.0G)

3. How do I create such a nice partition map?

When creating the MacOs partition you will see that Macos creates 8 partitions. The first seven partitions are used for device drivers and patches while the eighth partition is used by MacOs itself. In my case, the ninth partition is the boot partition. You can choose to make partitions with pdisk during the installation of Linux on your iBook or, when running linux, by typing "pdisk /dev/hda". Now type a "p" to look at your partition map. You can add the swap partition by typing a "c" at the prompt. You will be asked to give in the base of your partition. Fill in the base of the "Apple free" partition (probably partition 10). Next you will be asked to give in the size of your partition. If you for instance want to make your swap partition 64 Mb, type in "64m". After that you'll be asked to give in the partition name. Be sure to type "swap" at the prompt! If you look at your partition map again (option "p") you will see your new made partition. You can create the root partition in the same way. Take the base and the size of the "Apple free" partition (most likely partition 11) and name this partition "root". Take a look at your partition map again (option "p") to check if everything went all right. Finally, when you are satisfied with the partition map, you can save it with option "w". After a reboot you will be able to use the new partition map.

http://www.ibooklinux.net/

thatch · 01-19-2003, 09:18 PM

Glanz, thanks for the reply. BTW, one of my links in my previous post wasn't correct as I found out later. But it's fixed now. It's the one with the instructions for Debian/GNU linux for PowerPC.

Yes, I gathered that one usually installs the whole enchilada from CD. But that link suggests other means which is what brought me here to all this. And I did read about some yaboot adventures too. And they seemed even stranger to me at the time.

It does look like, eventually, it may get ported to Mac OS X. I can be patient. This isn't something that I have to do. I was just pondering the whole of it since you mentioned how fast it was. And searches on these forums yielded very little info except for those who sort of said it wasn't possible.

No problem about not getting back. I thought you might have missed it or were just too busy, which of course, I would understand.

Glanz · 01-19-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by thatch Glanz, thanks for the reply. It does look like, eventually, it may get ported to Mac OS X. I can be patient. This isn't something that I have to do.

I meant the FreeBSD ports project for OS X with X11/XFree which is fairly new. I myself have installed quite a few FreeBSD and MIT apps on my iBook. The trick is to NOT let it interfere with the Fink install. I'll get to that later if you'd like.

No thanks necessary.... This is a real pleasure. I love this!

thatch · 01-19-2003, 09:56 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by Glanz I meant the FreeBSD ports project for OS X with X11/XFree which is fairly new...

OIC. Maybe those would be available through fink soon and thereby not interfere with fink? Perhaps wishful thinking on my part.

I see you've included a bunch more info to your previous post via edit. I'll be checking that now. Oh, and I'm on a G4 desktop. Hope it doesn't make too much of a difference versus the iBook. Looks like some really helpful info at first glance. As I said before, I'm intrigued.

Glanz · 01-19-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by thatch Oh, and I'm on a G4 desktop. ......... I'm intrigued.

OK... the next time I edit this post, I'll have a link more specific to your hardware.....but the same ol' applies at the base........ the only difference is the identification of the vid cards, modems etc.

"Intrigued" really means that you have become a hopeless geek like me. It's like putting on weight... kinda sneaks up on ya....

thatch · 01-19-2003, 11:51 PM

Okay, I've read everything on all the links pertinent to me and my setup. But I am still wondering about the very beginning, the partition scheme.

I have never partitioned a drive with more than one file system type. Is it even possible? I mean, can I have my HFS+ partitions and regular HFS partitions all on the same drive? Does Disk Utility in Mac OS X allow that? Because if it didn't, then I couldn't feasibly do this since my current clones would be HFS+. And I can't afford to lose what I have to a clean install.

I was hoping to clone back to the newly partitioned drive that has my same partitions for HFS+, one placeholder partition in HFS and some free space to use for HFS linux partitions. I would do the cloning with psync which is my favorite backup method as well.

If I can do the aforementioned, then I would just need the time, about three hours since I've never done it before, and the proper ID's for the V-cards and modems, etc...

Quote:


	Originally posted by Glanz "Intrigued" really means that you have become a hopeless geek like me. It's like putting on weight... kinda sneaks up on ya....

Yup. You're probably right about that. And although I do try and keep fit by playing a lot of tennis, the colder weather of winter coupled with all the good holiday treats can put me slightly towards the rotund.

thatch · 01-20-2003, 01:16 AM

I think I have the answer to my last post. All I would need to do is partition for HFS+ and then when I install Debian and use it's partitioning tool, that is how to change the free space into regular HFS from HFS+.

I don't know if Disk Utility would do this but I know that people have installed Debian on top of Mac OS X in new world boxes. And I don't think they would have had to partition the entire drive into HFS only to do so.

Do I sound confused? Maybe I'm just trippin' down some cyber trail or some such. Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

tjj · 01-20-2003, 03:28 AM

Like thatch, I have played with the thought of installing debian (on an expansion bay drive for my pismo), primarily for the fun of it?

But, being a unix newbie. I was somewhat scared off by the seeming complexity, what with the nomenclature for different patition slices and all...(After all, sometimes I have real work to do as well

).
But I have tried, using Disk Utilty to format a drive into HFS+, HFS and free space partitions, so that is possible. (That was OS 9.2.2. I couldn't get the Debian CD to mount from my firewire drive, and didn't want to install on my main drive, so in the end I gave it up. At the time I'm not sure netinstall was an option.)
But why wouldn't one choose UFS for the partition that Debian gets installed onto? Is it something about sharing files across the file systems?

thatch · 01-20-2003, 03:43 AM

tjj, thanks for the reply. So, to be absolutely clear about this; you were able to make HFS+ and HFS partitions together on the same drive with Disk Utility under Mac OS X? Because you said just after that, "That was OS 9.2.2.".

The reason that UFS can't be used is:

GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions.

tjj · 01-20-2003, 04:02 AM

Sorry, but I'm quite sure it was 9.2.2. I came so far as to actually format the drive into at least 1 hfs+, 1 hfs + 1 'free space'. I have not tried after moving to osX, but I belive that creating hfs AND hfs+ partitions on the same drive is perfectly allowed with Disk Utility. If you like, I can soon (I hope!) test this as I'm expecting replacements of two! recent drive failures. But that's the minor part of the issue I think

But then again, if you're serious about installing debian you probably have the spare drive to test this easily for yourself. If you go ahead with debian, please post as to your succes and good luck!
Thanks for reminding me the reason for not UFS, I thought it had some advantages over hfs that unix/linux could exploit (defragmentation issues).

thatch · 01-20-2003, 04:21 AM

tjj, no need to be sorry. I appreciate the info on your experience because I only have my main drive and my external backup drive, both of which I don't want to muck up by testing any partitioning schemes. But it makes me think that since you could do this in OS 9, then it should also be possible in OS X.

And yes, you were right about the file sharing issue across different file systems. Perhaps I should have included the entire paragraph around the sentence that I referenced:

GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions. OS X requires one of these two types for its boot partition. MacOS 9 can be installed on either HFS (aka MacOS Standard) or HFS+. To share information between the MacOS and GNU/Linux systems, an exchange partition is handy. HFS and MS-DOS FAT partitions are supported by both MacOS and Linux.

tjj · 01-20-2003, 04:28 AM

thatch, thank you.
Does that mean you have have an extra partition (hfs) just for file exchange, or will osX - run from an hfs+ partition be able to access files on the debian partition (hfs)?

Glanz · 01-20-2003, 07:42 AM

Just a note: Linux can't read HFS+

A note on the boot partition:::

The bootstrap partition only takes 800k of space. If you are adding a bootstrap partition to your existing setup, you may have enough free space on your existing drive without changing other partitions. If not, you could avoid re-partitioning the entire disk by stealing a little space from your swap partition. Or parted would allow you to resize partitions.

The bootstrap partition should end up being partition #2, after the partition map itself but before any other partitions on the disk. You can easily change the order of the partitions in the partition map using the r command (see the mac-fdisk tutorial). In other words, it's not the physical placement of the bootstrap partition that counts, it's the logical order within the partition map. Note, though, if you have an existing system and you shift the partition numbers around, you will need to make the appropriate changes in /etc/fstab.

The reason you want the bootstrap partition as partition #2, is so that it precedes all other partitions in the boot sequence. This helps tremendously to make the entire system more stable, since some OS's are very intrusive in their use of partitions.

When you're finished partitioning, use the p command and make note of the final partition numbers. You will need to know the partition number for the bootstrap partition, the location of your kernel, and if you intend to set up yaboot for multiple OS booting, partition numbers for your alternate OS's.

While it's possible to install yaboot on a mountable HFS /boot partition, that configuration is deprecated, discouraged and completely unsupported.

################

For initial installation on a machine, you can use yabootconfig to first create a yaboot.conf file and then install everything on your bootstrap partition. Yabootconfig reads the running system's /etc/fstab to determine the kernel location, and detects the location of the 800k Apple_Bootstrap partition. The Debian installer uses yabootconfig behind the scenes in the Make Hard Disk Bootable step.

Normally, the initial boot configuration is created while in a ramdisk installer environment, with the system being installed being mounted under /target or /mnt. To run yabootconfig under these conditions, supply the path to the target system with -t or --chroot option. For example: yabootconfig --chroot /target

The yaboot.conf automatically created by yabootconfig will just control booting of the linux system under which it was created. To boot additional OS's or add other options, you will need to edit the yaboot.conf file.
################

OVERVIEW

Overview of the Installation Process

Here's a road map for the steps you will take during the installation process.

1. Create partition-able space for Debian on your hard disk

2. Locate and/or download kernel and driver files (except Debian CD users)

3. Set up boot floppies or place boot files (except most Debian CD users can boot from one of the CDs)

4. Boot the installation system

5. Configure the keyboard

6. Create and mount Debian partitions

7. Point the installer to the location of the kernel and drivers

8. Select which peripheral drivers to load

9. Configure the network interface

10. Initiate automatic download/install/setup of the base system

11. Configure Linux or multi-system boot loading

12. Boot the newly installed system and do some final configuration

13. Install additional tasks and packages, at your discretion

The following is a must read::
http://www.debian.org/releases/stabl...ioning.en.html

tjj · 01-20-2003, 08:30 AM

Thanks Glanz,
This is getting a bit too deep for me, I think. I have 3 fstab files in /etc, surnamed .hd, .rd and .sd. All of them are commented out:

Quote:


	#This file is obsolete

There was an old thread here regarding the same issue: ol' thread

If I do a df I get:

Quote:


	tjj% df Filesystem 512-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/disk0s9 23071680 12257568 10583400 53% / devfs 187 187 0 100% /dev fdesc 2 2 0 100% /dev <volfs> 1024 1024 0 100% /.vol /dev/disk0s10 36957488 28075392 8882096 75% /Volumes/FirewireDrive2 automount -fstab [341] 0 0 0 100% /Network/Servers automount -static [341] 0 0 0 100% /automount

I guess that disk0 is my boot device with system located at slice 9. Then the previous 8 ones are probably Apple's property. But I can't see how to fool around with the fstab file or files...

Glanz · 01-20-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by tjj But I can't see how to fool around with the fstab file or files...

Yes, this is getting deep..... There is much danger here dontchaknow.

As far as the bootsector as defined by yaboot being the second on the list...., it's just that and only that.. -a list. In a way, that is. The "listing" takes place during the Deb install. Now, I wouldn't try this right now. I will try to put together some clear, concise, readable instructions, not primarily written in geekspeak. The reason for this is that I have noticed that many instructions are a bit outdated.
Personally, I would not want to place Debian alongside a OSX on my iBook because this will require a reinstall of OS X, which in turn means a reinstallation of all those OS X upgrades from Apple, and I would have to give up my Precious Fink installation that was compiled from source (this iBook really had a work-out compiling all that)....... Of course with a Deb install, I wouldn't need Fink, but then again, with a Debian install, I wouldn't need OS X either.

Like I said earlier, I use two iBooks, one being mine with an OS X with Fink install, and another at work that belongs to the University with Debian only. I hesitate to do this to my iBook, because as I stated, that Fink install, finely tuned, wasn't a minor task, considering all the time that the compilation took. If I has Debian on my personal iBook, this would be pretty much the same thing... same applications, etc. (I don't use KDE on either)... The only advantage WAS the scientific apps on the Debian machine, but all those apps are now available for straight OS X or for X11 with or without Fink.

I like Fink a lot.
I like Debian a lot.
I even like OS X a lot.
So all in all, I believe I'll stick with OS X and Fink.
I have a Debian PC to satisfy my Debian needs (or should I say obsession).

Here is my opinion on this: I have partitioned many a hard drive and have at my disposal five Linux distributions via PCs. But I have one I reserved for Debian only. Why? Although it works quite well, mutiple operating systems on a single hard drive require a lot of babysitting.

As for my Apple machines, I prefer NOT to partition for other operating systems. For databases and safe storage, it's OK, but I am not convinced there would be a technical advantage to having mutiple OS's on an Apple machine. However, it can be fun playing around with all that.

Now for some hard realism: somewhere along the way, mistakes will be made, if not at the time of initial installations, then later when new Linux kernels are issued that may or may not affect the boot sector involved in updates. There may be a disk repair necessary some time in the future because of file corruption on the OS X side of things. Another partition and a non-Mac boot sector won't help in that process..., that's for sure.

I, of course, am referring to my portables, but if I had a big ol' powerful, smokin' n' chokin' G4, I might be tempted to play around a bit.

tjj · 01-20-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by Glanz Yes, this is getting deep..... I will try to put together some clear, concise, readable instructions, not primarily written in geekspeak. The reason for this is that I have noticed that many instructions are a bit outdated.........

That would be very nice, thank you!
Your points are well taken. I have all my "real" needs (computing needs, that is) covered by OS X, fink is primarily for fun and curiosity. And this Debian thing will, for my part, exclusively be for the pleasure of doing obscure things to an innocent, unsuspecting, older powerbook late a night.
I was considering reserving a drive in a bay drive expansion module to this, as I wouldn't dream of (well.....

, dream on) doing this on my primary drive.

Glanz · 01-20-2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by tjj And this Debian thing will, for my part, exclusively be for the pleasure of doing obscure things to an innocent, unsuspecting, older powerbook late a night. I was considering reserving a drive in a bay drive expansion module to this, as I wouldn't dream of (well....., dream on) doing this on my primary drive.

If that old Powerbook is a secondary and not a primary machine, and if it has a REAL MODEM, not one of those imitation winmodem-type controller-FULL modems, but a REAL hardware modem, that Powerbook looks like a candidate for a full Debian install. Muuuuhahahahahaha

tjj · 01-20-2003, 10:38 AM

hehehe It IS my primary machine, and as two Travelstar drive's just failed on me within weeks, I'm running off my firewire back-up. So presently. I don't install anything . Actually, I'm afraid to even touch the keyboard for fear of hte firewire dying on me as well -knock on wood.

But that's why I would want Debian (if I do..., I might not..., but then again, could be fun) on a dedicated removable drive. So I could just swap in the expansion drive, "click" and I'd be running debian (after a reboot, IknowIknow), and rip it out, "click" back into OS X..

01-19-2003, 08:18 PM	#1
thatch All Star Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 534	Debian and Mac OS X I became a bit intrigued by some comments from Glanz in another thread and asked a few off topic questions about having Debian/GNU linux on a spare partition. But I never got a reply so I thought I better research a bit on my own. After doing just that and finding a lot of info, I have a question about the pre-partitioning for this as noted here where it says you can install it if you have some spare partitions but you need to have a placeholder partition at the beginning of the scheme before any Mac partitions. That's a bit confusing. I gather that you'd need to repartition anyway then because most of us Mac users aren't going to just happen to have an empty, small partition at the beginning of our drives hanging around waiting for something like this which makes the whole idea of adding debian linux to an existing Mac OS install without repartitioning kind of moot. Also, the instructions imply that debian will need to be on a regular HFS partition, not HFS+, and that in order to share files across with my existing Mac partitions, an exchange partition could be helpful. That complicates things even more than I had anticipated. Apparently, later on in the install process, you are able to create more linux partitions for whatever you need. And to be a fully functional install, a root partition, swap partition and at least one other will be necessary. The original placeholder partition will be changed and reused somewhere right about then too. But it's still getting more slicey and dicey by the moment. My rig has six partitions currently and two of them are free space but are not at the beginning of the disk. Looks like for me, I'd have to clone all my stuff off to my external and then do the partition scheme from scratch, then clone my stuff back, then install debian, then partition some more and continue on with the rest of the installation. Yikes! Anyone with any thoughts or knowledge about any of this, I would sure like to hear from you. TIA! Last edited by thatch; 01-19-2003 at 09:02 PM.

01-19-2003, 09:12 PM	#3
Glanz Major Leaguer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 373	More Links Oh! Sorry for not getting back sooner. I've got Genome data coming out of my ears and I get lost in that universe sometimes. http://www.wrietman.com/ibook/index.html?debian 1. Which commands can I use? h = help p = print the partition table P = (print ordered by base address) i = initialize partition map s = change size of partition map c = create new partition (standard MkLinux type) C = (create with type also specified) n = (re)name a partition d = delete a partition r = reorder partition entry in map w = write the partition table q = quit editing (don't save changes) ? = help 2. What does a partition map look like? Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/hda' #: type name length base ( size ) 1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1 2: Apple_Driver43Macintosh 54 @ 64 3: Apple_Driver43Macintosh 74 @ 118 4: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 54 @ 192 5: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 74 @ 246 6: Apple_Driver_IOKit Macintosh 512 @ 320 7: Apple_Patches Patch Partition 512 @ 832 8: Apple_HFS MacOS 1982464 @ 1344 (968.0M) 9: Apple_HFS Bootstrap 65536 @ 1983808 ( 32.0M) 10: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 swap 131072 @ 2049344 ( 64.0M) 11: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 root 4177030 @ 2180416 ( 2.0G) Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=6357455 (3.0G) 3. How do I create such a nice partition map? When creating the MacOs partition you will see that Macos creates 8 partitions. The first seven partitions are used for device drivers and patches while the eighth partition is used by MacOs itself. In my case, the ninth partition is the boot partition. You can choose to make partitions with pdisk during the installation of Linux on your iBook or, when running linux, by typing "pdisk /dev/hda". Now type a "p" to look at your partition map. You can add the swap partition by typing a "c" at the prompt. You will be asked to give in the base of your partition. Fill in the base of the "Apple free" partition (probably partition 10). Next you will be asked to give in the size of your partition. If you for instance want to make your swap partition 64 Mb, type in "64m". After that you'll be asked to give in the partition name. Be sure to type "swap" at the prompt! If you look at your partition map again (option "p") you will see your new made partition. You can create the root partition in the same way. Take the base and the size of the "Apple free" partition (most likely partition 11) and name this partition "root". Take a look at your partition map again (option "p") to check if everything went all right. Finally, when you are satisfied with the partition map, you can save it with option "w". After a reboot you will be able to use the new partition map. http://www.ibooklinux.net/ Last edited by Glanz; 01-19-2003 at 09:21 PM.

01-20-2003, 03:28 AM	#10
tjj Major Leaguer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 271	Why not UFS? Like thatch, I have played with the thought of installing debian (on an expansion bay drive for my pismo), primarily for the fun of it? But, being a unix newbie. I was somewhat scared off by the seeming complexity, what with the nomenclature for different patition slices and all...(After all, sometimes I have real work to do as well). But I have tried, using Disk Utilty to format a drive into HFS+, HFS and free space partitions, so that is possible. (That was OS 9.2.2. I couldn't get the Debian CD to mount from my firewire drive, and didn't want to install on my main drive, so in the end I gave it up. At the time I'm not sure netinstall was an option.) But why wouldn't one choose UFS for the partition that Debian gets installed onto? Is it something about sharing files across the file systems? __________________ -- Thomas 10.4.11 on Pismo 500 MHz/1GB 10.5.6 on iMac intel 2.16 GHz core duo/2GB

01-20-2003, 04:02 AM	#12
tjj Major Leaguer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 271	Sorry, but I'm quite sure it was 9.2.2. I came so far as to actually format the drive into at least 1 hfs+, 1 hfs + 1 'free space'. I have not tried after moving to osX, but I belive that creating hfs AND hfs+ partitions on the same drive is perfectly allowed with Disk Utility. If you like, I can soon (I hope!) test this as I'm expecting replacements of two! recent drive failures. But that's the minor part of the issue I think But then again, if you're serious about installing debian you probably have the spare drive to test this easily for yourself. If you go ahead with debian, please post as to your succes and good luck! Thanks for reminding me the reason for not UFS, I thought it had some advantages over hfs that unix/linux could exploit (defragmentation issues). __________________ -- Thomas 10.4.11 on Pismo 500 MHz/1GB 10.5.6 on iMac intel 2.16 GHz core duo/2GB

01-20-2003, 04:28 AM	#14
tjj Major Leaguer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 271	thatch, thank you. Does that mean you have have an extra partition (hfs) just for file exchange, or will osX - run from an hfs+ partition be able to access files on the debian partition (hfs)? __________________ -- Thomas 10.4.11 on Pismo 500 MHz/1GB 10.5.6 on iMac intel 2.16 GHz core duo/2GB

01-19-2003, 08:58 PM	#2
Glanz Major Leaguer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 373	This time I will get back to you. I sent a letter out to some friends at Debian.org..... I have another iBook at work that belongs to the University on which I installed Debian, but without partitions for OS X. In other words, the whole drive is occupied by Debian. Since I have an enormous amount of scientific apps on it, and several data bases for the info they produce, I have 9GB taken by Debian on a 15 GB hard drive. Normally when one installs Debian to a partition (via CD), a total reinstallation of OS X is necessary. Same with a network install. Get ready for a Yaboot adventure...... There's a way to do this no matter where the partition is located. I'll look into it. On a PC, they say the limit is 6 operating systems, but when I was writing Linux articles for extremetech.com, I and Masnick managed to install many more than that. I had 12 completely bootable Linux distros installed using a combo of Grub and a chain booting method I invented. I'll have to look into the available boot managers for the mac and see what's up. The only reason I finally bought a Mac was because of OS X (unix), Fink, which I consider to be a real jewel of of a project, and the iBook which is without doubt the best little portable I've ever owned. A winning combo.... Really though, Fink compares very nicely to Debian in many ways..., and if you're a bit patient, FreeBSD ports will fill the gaps when more come out. I must admit though, the Debian portable smokes. Another good one is Gentoo Linux which can be had with a net install. The compilation is tedious, albeit exact, and requires the user's presence for eight of 12 hours of installation..... I did that one to for a friend. Here are some links::::::: http://people.debian.org/~branden/ibook.html http://debian-imac.sourceforge.net/ http://penguinppc.org/projects/ http://penguinppc.org/projects/yaboo...t-howto.shtml/ Last edited by Glanz; 01-19-2003 at 09:08 PM.

01-19-2003, 09:18 PM	#4
thatch All Star Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 534	Glanz, thanks for the reply. BTW, one of my links in my previous post wasn't correct as I found out later. But it's fixed now. It's the one with the instructions for Debian/GNU linux for PowerPC. Yes, I gathered that one usually installs the whole enchilada from CD. But that link suggests other means which is what brought me here to all this. And I did read about some yaboot adventures too. And they seemed even stranger to me at the time. It does look like, eventually, it may get ported to Mac OS X. I can be patient. This isn't something that I have to do. I was just pondering the whole of it since you mentioned how fast it was. And searches on these forums yielded very little info except for those who sort of said it wasn't possible. No problem about not getting back. I thought you might have missed it or were just too busy, which of course, I would understand.

01-20-2003, 01:16 AM	#9
thatch All Star Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 534	I think I have the answer to my last post. All I would need to do is partition for HFS+ and then when I install Debian and use it's partitioning tool, that is how to change the free space into regular HFS from HFS+. I don't know if Disk Utility would do this but I know that people have installed Debian on top of Mac OS X in new world boxes. And I don't think they would have had to partition the entire drive into HFS only to do so. Do I sound confused? Maybe I'm just trippin' down some cyber trail or some such. Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

01-20-2003, 03:43 AM	#11
thatch All Star Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 534	tjj, thanks for the reply. So, to be absolutely clear about this; you were able to make HFS+ and HFS partitions together on the same drive with Disk Utility under Mac OS X? Because you said just after that, "That was OS 9.2.2.". The reason that UFS can't be used is: GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions.

01-20-2003, 04:21 AM	#13
thatch All Star Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 534	tjj, no need to be sorry. I appreciate the info on your experience because I only have my main drive and my external backup drive, both of which I don't want to muck up by testing any partitioning schemes. But it makes me think that since you could do this in OS 9, then it should also be possible in OS X. And yes, you were right about the file sharing issue across different file systems. Perhaps I should have included the entire paragraph around the sentence that I referenced: GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions. OS X requires one of these two types for its boot partition. MacOS 9 can be installed on either HFS (aka MacOS Standard) or HFS+. To share information between the MacOS and GNU/Linux systems, an exchange partition is handy. HFS and MS-DOS FAT partitions are supported by both MacOS and Linux.

01-20-2003, 07:42 AM	#15
Glanz Major Leaguer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 373	Just a note: Linux can't read HFS+ A note on the boot partition::: The bootstrap partition only takes 800k of space. If you are adding a bootstrap partition to your existing setup, you may have enough free space on your existing drive without changing other partitions. If not, you could avoid re-partitioning the entire disk by stealing a little space from your swap partition. Or parted would allow you to resize partitions. The bootstrap partition should end up being partition #2, after the partition map itself but before any other partitions on the disk. You can easily change the order of the partitions in the partition map using the r command (see the mac-fdisk tutorial). In other words, it's not the physical placement of the bootstrap partition that counts, it's the logical order within the partition map. Note, though, if you have an existing system and you shift the partition numbers around, you will need to make the appropriate changes in /etc/fstab. The reason you want the bootstrap partition as partition #2, is so that it precedes all other partitions in the boot sequence. This helps tremendously to make the entire system more stable, since some OS's are very intrusive in their use of partitions. When you're finished partitioning, use the p command and make note of the final partition numbers. You will need to know the partition number for the bootstrap partition, the location of your kernel, and if you intend to set up yaboot for multiple OS booting, partition numbers for your alternate OS's. While it's possible to install yaboot on a mountable HFS /boot partition, that configuration is deprecated, discouraged and completely unsupported. ################ For initial installation on a machine, you can use yabootconfig to first create a yaboot.conf file and then install everything on your bootstrap partition. Yabootconfig reads the running system's /etc/fstab to determine the kernel location, and detects the location of the 800k Apple_Bootstrap partition. The Debian installer uses yabootconfig behind the scenes in the Make Hard Disk Bootable step. Normally, the initial boot configuration is created while in a ramdisk installer environment, with the system being installed being mounted under /target or /mnt. To run yabootconfig under these conditions, supply the path to the target system with -t or --chroot option. For example: yabootconfig --chroot /target The yaboot.conf automatically created by yabootconfig will just control booting of the linux system under which it was created. To boot additional OS's or add other options, you will need to edit the yaboot.conf file. ################ OVERVIEW Overview of the Installation Process Here's a road map for the steps you will take during the installation process. 1. Create partition-able space for Debian on your hard disk 2. Locate and/or download kernel and driver files (except Debian CD users) 3. Set up boot floppies or place boot files (except most Debian CD users can boot from one of the CDs) 4. Boot the installation system 5. Configure the keyboard 6. Create and mount Debian partitions 7. Point the installer to the location of the kernel and drivers 8. Select which peripheral drivers to load 9. Configure the network interface 10. Initiate automatic download/install/setup of the base system 11. Configure Linux or multi-system boot loading 12. Boot the newly installed system and do some final configuration 13. Install additional tasks and packages, at your discretion The following is a must read:: http://www.debian.org/releases/stabl...ioning.en.html

01-20-2003, 10:38 AM	#20
tjj Major Leaguer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 271	hehehe It IS my primary machine, and as two Travelstar drive's just failed on me within weeks, I'm running off my firewire back-up. So presently. I don't install anything . Actually, I'm afraid to even touch the keyboard for fear of hte firewire dying on me as well -knock on wood. But that's why I would want Debian (if I do..., I might not..., but then again, could be fun) on a dedicated removable drive. So I could just swap in the expansion drive, "click" and I'd be running debian (after a reboot, IknowIknow), and rip it out, "click" back into OS X.. __________________ -- Thomas 10.4.11 on Pismo 500 MHz/1GB 10.5.6 on iMac intel 2.16 GHz core duo/2GB