Rhapsody DR 2 on eBay

uurf · 06-18-2002, 10:59 AM

Thought you all might be interested in this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2032874048

Rhapsody DR2 Complete
Collectors, enthusiasts, Apple historians, presenting a complete set of Rhapsody Developers' Release 2 materials for Apple's Rhapsody Operating System (now known as Mac OS X), in excellent, unused condition.

After Apple acquired NeXT in December of 1996, it announced that the NeXT operating system would be the basis for the next generation Mac OS - then code named "Rhapsody". This package is the entire second developers' release of that effort, released in October of 1997.

Included in this kit is everything from the Second Developers Release; The Power Macintosh Rhapsody Install CD, The Blue Box Install CD, Third Party Demos & Enterprise Object Framework CD, Yellow Box for Windows 95, and the Rhapsody for PC install CD (actually, I'm including Rhapsody for PC DR 1 and 2 Install Packages), and all the printed documentation.

RacerX · 06-21-2002, 12:10 AM

Nice collection... I think I'll send some people over to that link so they'll stop asking for copies of my CDs.

So why did you use the DR1 CDs and floppies for the images? Seeing those after reading the title would make me think twice (if I hadn't already read that you were including both sets).

It is to bad that Apple just pulled down the PC compatibility page for Rhapsody DR2 (Rhapsody 5.1), that at least would help people figure out what systems it would work on (actually the systems are not the different from systems that would support OPENSTEP 4.2).

Best of luck with them (though I think you could have gotten more selling each CD by itself).

RacerX · 06-21-2002, 12:42 AM

As some of you guys know, I have two systems running Rhapsody 5.1 (Rhapsody DR2) on Intel systems (an IBM ThinkPad and a Digital Celebris) and Rhapsody 5.6 (Mac OS X Server 1.2) running on my PowerBook G3. These systems are every day systems for me, so I know how to get them to do what I need in most respects. This is a list of some of the primary apps that I use on these systems. uurf, hopefully this can help you with selling your CDs because you said in the ebay description that: There are significant limitations to this build - you won't be able to run many apps on this build and certainly no Mac OS Classic apps, maybe this would be enough for someone interested, it has been for me the last few years.

AppleMenuOptions.app : This was developed after Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) was released and was included with Rhapsody 5.3 and later (Mac OS X Server 1.x). It lets you configure the Apple menu in almost any way you like (mine is very much like my Mac OS 9 Apple menu actually).

Calculator.app : Doesn't come with the OS, but you can find it at either Peanuts or Peak, and then use ProjectBuilder to compile it. It is not that different from the Calculator of the Mac OS.

Create 5 and the Stone Design Suite : Andrew Stone's collection of apps that do a ton of cool things (you can read more about them at stone.com).

Fiend.app : Apple dropped the dock after RDR1, so Fiend jumped in and gave it back, works very much like the old NeXT dock, specially if you set the Workspace Manager's preferences so that minimizing windows sends them to icons at the bottom of the desktop.

Mesa3.app : Nice spreadsheet program (if you need a spreadsheet app)

OmniPDF.app : This is a very beta version that was not stable for me (it would crash almost anytime I opened a pdf doc).

OmniWeb.app : Full version of OmniWeb 3 (thanks Omni for making one for Rhapsody 5.1 for Intel) that works great.

PDFView.app : This is how I actually view all my pdf docs in Rhapsody, it can read anything that Acrobat Reader 3.0 can read.

TextEdit.app : This is the app that most Mac users dismiss as just SimpleText for Mac OS X when it is actually a feature rich word processor (that allows you to add images and spell check).

MailViewer.app : Basically the same as Mail.app from NeXT, and functions like Mail in Mac OS X

TIFFant3.app : Image Editor, almost in the same league as Photoshop, but takes some time to get use to (see Caffeine Software's web site for more about it's set of features).

WriteUp.app : This is as complete a word processor as any I've ever seen, same league as Word and WordPerfect.

PasteUp.app : About on par with PageMaker 5.0, but still a very feature rich page layout program.

Stickies.app : You guessed it.

TinyInstaller.app : Rhapsody (5.0 and 5.1) does not come with an installer app (Apple dropped the NeXt version and wouldn't replace it until the release of Mac OS X Server 1.0), so you have to use the command line installer.sh which can be a pain. This little app adds a GUI to that command.

Chess.app : Same as both the Mac OS X and NeXT versions (how could they improve on perfection).

QuickTimePlayer.app : Nice QuickTime 3 application, if you have the full version on some other system you can convert even the latest Star Wars trailers so you can watch them in Rhapsody.

RhapsoDoom.app : If you have the full version of Doom or Doom II, you can get them up and running in Rhapsody (this is a beta version, and not totally stable, but still playable).

Quake2.app : This only works on the PPC version of Rhapsody 5.1, but runs nicely.

Hextris.app : Tetris type app, fun to kill time with.

Risk.app : Beta version of the game Risk.

Solitaire.app : Scott Anguish's version of the greatest time killer of all time.

Balling.app : Another great time killing game.

I think that covers most of the stuff that I use that I consider mildly important. They range from freeware to semi-expensive (TIFFany is about $500, WriteUp in in the $300 range, and Create was about $200 the last time I checked). All and all, these apps make Rhapsody a very livable computing environment.

I currently have a collection of some 300+ fonts, many of which can be found at http://www.peak.org/next/fonts/ , installing them has something of a trick to it (you have to use the terminal.app if that gives you any idea what is involved)

Places to go:

http://www.peanuts.org/

http://www.peak.org/apple/rhapsody/

http://www.stepwise.com/

Craig R. Arko · 06-21-2002, 08:21 AM

I hope Blacknova looks in this thread; he indicated an interest in maybe buying a copy from eBay.

What's the deal with the Finder in Rhap/OS X Server 1.2? Is that a Cocoa port or does it run the classic Finder via Bluebox?

---
Edit - d'oh; it wouldn't work on the ThinkPad very well if it was Bluebox, now would it, Craig?

Sorry...

uurf · 06-21-2002, 10:40 AM

Dear Speed's Older Brother Rex (I loved that show growing up)-

Thanks for your comments regarding DR1 vs. DR2, not sure what pics you're refering to, but to my knowledge this is a complete set of DR2 release materials, with some DR1 items thrown in (Rhapsody DR1 for PC, for example).

I appreciate the list of apps you use; I never had any of the hardware necessary to run these releases so I have 0 real world experience with them. Hence their "unused" condition.

uurf

Blacknova · 06-21-2002, 11:39 AM

Yellow box being cocoa, and therefore is the 9x code I am looking at. RacerX if you would be willing to answer me some questions to give me a clearer picture, how adaptive is Rhapsody to different filesystems (e.g. will I need to destructively repartite my drive to get it to rock and roll as dual boot? given my Win system is due for it's once yearly format and rebuild, now is as good a time as any).

Judging by X Final, I am guessing this thing has the capability to run on UNIX FS and HFS+, though I would be interested to see if it could be made to fly with ext2 or ReiserFS with some hackery magic.

Leading on from that bit of speculation... what kinks should I be aware of when handling the i386 arch of this software? Any curve balls it's liable to throw at me (outside of the usual unix type things)??

Lastly... most importantly, how does it feel to run apple software on an i386?? I am considering showing this to my boss (a macfan) simply for the look on his face

Greets,
Nova

RacerX · 06-21-2002, 01:09 PM

Craig,

What looks like the Finder in Rhapsody 5.x is actually a rework of OPENSTEP's Workspace Manager to look and act similar to the Mac's Finder. In the earlier DP releases of Mac OS X the systems would have both the Workspace Manager and an earlier version of the Carbon Finder (the last version with a Workspace Manager was DP3 as I recall).

Blue Box runs the Mac OS in a separate environment (nothing like the rootless way that Classic works today), and requires PPC hardware to run. Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) uses Mac OS 8.1 for the OS in Blue Box, Rhapsody 5.3-5.5 (Mac OS X Server 1.0, 1.0.1 and 1.0.2) all use Mac OS 8.5.1 (upgradable to 8.6), and Rhapsody 5.6 (Mac OS X Server 1.2) has Mac OS 8.6 pre installed. You can't move past 8.6 in Blue Box or it'll stop working.

uurf,

The images have the checker banned on the CDs which was used on the Rhapsody 5.0 (RDR) release, on the Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) CDs you have a colored field and bare CD surface. Most people haven’t actually seen them so I guess it really doesn't make a difference.

Nova,

Filesystems, there is a good question (that people should ask about more often). Rhapsody 5.0 and Rhapsody 5.1 have their own unique filesystem that is not compatible with any other version (OPENSTEP 4.x and before or Rhapsody 5.3 and later). They can read ISO 9660 CDs, but that is were the ability to work with outside media formats end. Apple specifically said that you could not run OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP on a duel boot system with the Developer Releases. Also Rhapsody for Intel does not come with anything like lilo, so I'm not sure how it works with boot managers. I have run all my systems as 100% Rhapsody systems (no other OS installed) so I don't have any experience trying to run it on a multi OS system (though OPENSTEP and Red Hat seemed to play nice together on one system I set up once, so this may work as nicely). So, no it can't read HFS/HFS+, that wouldn't be added until Rhapsody 5.3. The Workspace Manager is as tied to the filesystem format here as the Finder is in Mac OS X to HFS+, so even if you could get it up and running on something else, you would most likely be looking at the same type of slow down that the Finder faces when installed on UFS formatted systems.

What this comes down to from an operational stand point is that Rhapsody's only contact with the outside world is via HTTP/FTP (which is how I move things on and off my systems). It has limited (after thought) support for AppleTalk for printing, but nothing like the vast range of PPDs that come with the 5.6 release (actually 5.1 doesn't come with any PPDs as I recall). My PowerBook prints to quite a few printers including a Phaser 740, HP LaserJet 5000, and a CLC 950 with a Fiery RIP. Also it can only read and write Rhapsody formatted floppies, so unless you have more than one Rhapsody system (like I do), the floppy drive is basically useless after the installation process.

What you'll notice with Rhapsody 5.1 is that it looks and feels like the final release of Mac OS X Server 1.0 (without the suite of server apps... which I didn't install on my Rhapsody 5.6/Mac OS X Server 1.2 PowerBook because it is not being used as a server). From 5.1 Apple branched off and made what is a completely new operating system that is Mac OS X. The Darwin kernel is like the Rhapsody kernel in how it is set up, but parts that Apple/NeXT had to license (which made it an expensive system) were removed and replaced in the Darwin version. The application/user environment not only had Carbon APIs added, it removed Adobe's very expensive Display PostScript and replaced it with Apple's Display PDF (GNUstep has been trying to do the same type of work around with Display GhostScript) in Quartz.

It runs great on my system, I have had uptimes of over 220 days (before the weather jumps into the mix). Quicktime can be temperamental, and Doom can die (and not in the game sense) after about 5 levels or so. My ThinkPad was (until a few months ago) the system I took with me in the field while making service calls. It has some 3 Gigs of documentation on just about every type of system I work with (Apple, SGI, Sun, Windows and Linux PCs), and needed to be completely reliable and able to provide me with any thing I would need to fix other peoples systems. I think that is a testament for how good it runs considering that people don't usually ask techs back who can't even keep their own systems up while on a call.

The biggest problem is drivers. As Craig knows, I was watching my Quicktime movies without sound on my ThinkPad because Apple didn't make any sound drivers for it. And I was lucky that there were any display drivers for the ThinkPad also. Fortunately Jobs continued to use a ThinkPad running OPENSTEP for quite a while after returning to Apple (I think his first PowerBook was actually a Wall Street), so they made sure that his hardware was supported with some drivers. I actually got my ThinkPad 760ED after making sure that both OPENSTEP 4.2 and Rhapsody 5.1 would run on it, otherwise it would have been little more than a big black paper weight to me (I don't use Windows or Linux for anything, so PC hardware that is not NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody compatible is of little use to me, my UNIX systems are Suns and SGIs which have their own special hardware and everything I need Windows/Linux for can be done in VPC).

And then there is the shock value. As a primarily Mac consultant, walking into a Mac-only shop with a ThinkPad usually turns some heads... but not as many as when it boots to an Apple OS.

Blacknova · 06-21-2002, 03:34 PM

RacerX, you might have just earned my worship for the next few weeks

I get the feeling I am going to be asking you quite a few techie questions over the comming weeks if I run into roadblocks (either with this or with X).

The info on the filesystem is great, that gives me a good oversight as to how I can port anything into or out of the system as and when it becomes necessary (for net access I will sit the system behind a hardware router and have it network to that, simple enough, right now I have a kludge solution involving Win ICS, which is better than nothing, but not particularly effective).

Going on from what you said:

Dual boots are something I have had a fair chunk of experience in (normally from trashing my own system through incorrect implementations), I should be able to rig either lilo or failing that a modified batch file at windows startup to cater for that possibility.

Any kinks in the handling of PPP that might be of importance?? (additionally, does it have capability for VPN / PPTP, PPPoA or PPPoE??). Judging by what you said, Appletalk is only limited functionality, so attempting to network through that could be a bad idea.

Terminal implementation, how much of BSD (if any) resides within Rhapsody (or if not the BSD subset, what then?), and to what extent can it be beefed up for handling code compiles, etc. (I am not even considering whether source is gonna throw a hickey when I try compiling it because of the system's rather unique situation, I'll deal with that as and when). If it can handle unix comfortably underneath, and allow running of XFree as a secondary manager, then it becomes infinitely more helpful to me.

If you have dealt with code compiles, how does it compare with X for speed and stability?

At the cost it's going for atm, I'm not fussed about hardware issues, if need be I will rig together a guinea pig from a bunch of old bits and run it through that. When it comes to tinkering, it has to be done, just for the learning experience if nothing else (I am one of these who believes in tinkering for it's own sake). Additionally, if Rhapsody can handle CVS, there's a fair bet that rolling your own drivers might be an option (though equally I can guess that a kernel recompile won't be an option if they need to operate at that level).

I can imagine the shock value... wander in to the local mac repair shop with a PC and they'll think you've gone mad, before thinking THEY have gone mad when they see an Apple OS boot up on it (like I said, worth the money for that alone

)

Thanks for your time, much appreciated.
Nova

(btw, if this is getting too techie for people, I am sure we can re-introduce some insanity in here, don't want people's eyes glazing over

)

uurf · 06-21-2002, 03:48 PM

Based on RacerX's post I did a little more digging.

The Installation Manual.pdf on the Rhapsody for PowerPC cd is dated 9/16/97, which leads me to conclude this is in fact DR 1.

The set also includes Blue Box, which I thought was post DR 1. But it's there.

Finally, the set has DR 1 and 2 of Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.

The CD's are at my office, so I'll pick them up and do a bit more digging tonight.

I've updated the listing on eBay with a revision - DR 1 complete + DR 2 for PC.

uurf

uurf · 06-22-2002, 01:19 AM

I dug a little deeper and RacerX is right - everything I have is DR1. These CD's were given to me in an envelope labeled "DR2" and I took that at face value, having never had the appropriate hardware to install any of it.

Thanks RacerX for your help. I am glad to have cleared this up as I'm not interested in misleading anyone.

I also separated out the second set of Rhapsody for PC materials into their own listing.

Rhapsody Developer Release 1 - Complete!

Rhapsody Developer Release 1 for Intel PCs!

Blacknova · 06-22-2002, 08:45 AM

I noticed, put the bid back in on the complete set, not interested in a partial kit.

Greets,
Nova

RacerX · 06-22-2002, 10:12 AM

Lets see, what can I say about PPP... okay, I think that covers that subject. Oh, one think I forgot that you could look into, RhapPPP might be of some help.

The BSD implementation of Rhapsody is pretty much along the line of every system back to the first NeXTSTEP release (0.8) back in 1988. I don't remember which version Apple upgraded from the original 4.3BSD to 4.4BSD, but I think this version uses 4.4BSD, with tools and libs borrowed from OpenBSD, FreeBSD and NetBSD (as you probably know Mac OS X uses 4.4BSD Lite, where the missing parts of the lite version are being made up for mainly by ports from FreeBSD). Yes make is included (I think it is a port of GNU make for NetBSD as I recall). As for dealing with code, this is a developers release and was designed to help developers write apps for the final releases of Rhapsody (Rhapsody 5.2 was to be the Rhapsody workstation and Rhapsody 5.3 was to be Rhapsody Server... and was later released as Mac OS X Server 1.0), and should be able to handle most anything. The OS is finalized at this point, this was not really a beta as much as a platform to help to have apps ready for the final release that never was. The only thing I've compiled using make was a version of Apache, all other apps were done while in Project Builder, so it didn't seem that different from Mac OS X. It is hard to make any type of speed comparison because I would be comparing a G3/350 (for Mac OS X v10.1.5) or G3/266 (for Rhapsody 5.6) with a Pentium/133 (for Rhapsody 5.1).

As for implementing X on it, there are some ports that are ready to go (or used to be at least), but I think you would have a much easier time working with Darwin for Intel in that area. I know the drivers would be easier to come by. One possibility is Xnext, which was design for Rhapsody 5.1. All other aspects of it work as you would expect from a UNIX system.

As for using CVS with Rhapsody, it is important to note that this is a closed source operating system. These releases are the 5th full version of this line of operating systems by Apple-NeXT, and include code that is not open to the public and code that has been licensed from other companies. The kernel, while looking and acting like Darwin, is not part of the open source project as Darwin is. Drivers have been a problem from the beginning of Intel support (which I believe was started with NEXTSTEP 3.1), and your in very good company if you start down the path of creating your own drivers (careful stepping over the bodies). This is not to say that it can't be done, and for some hardware it is far easier than others. But for kernel level functions, with no source code and Apple not giving out any additional info on the Intel (or PPC) versions any more, you'll be pretty much in the dark (other than this document). Here again, the Darwin for Intel path would be the best choice for getting started... then at least you would have some idea of the general layout before starting to create Rhapsody drivers.

It is important to note that the first developer release (Rhapsody 5.0) was still based mainly on OpenStep. The directory structure and directory names used by OpenStep/Yellow Box apps in this release are actually more like OPENSTEP 4.2 than Rhapsody 5.1 and later. This release was designed to help move developers from the Prelude to Rhapsody (OPENSTEP 4.1, later upgraded to 4.2) to the final version (based on Rhapsody 5.1). Much of this operating system is in a state of flux, and actually looks like OPENSTEP with a Mac theme in many ways. Other than the OS/YB development package and the user interface, the rest of the system is very much like all the other Mach/BSD operating systems put out by Apple-NeXT.

06-18-2002, 10:59 AM	#1
uurf Prospect Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9	Rhapsody DR 2 on eBay Thought you all might be interested in this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2032874048 Rhapsody DR2 Complete Collectors, enthusiasts, Apple historians, presenting a complete set of Rhapsody Developers' Release 2 materials for Apple's Rhapsody Operating System (now known as Mac OS X), in excellent, unused condition. After Apple acquired NeXT in December of 1996, it announced that the NeXT operating system would be the basis for the next generation Mac OS - then code named "Rhapsody". This package is the entire second developers' release of that effort, released in October of 1997. Included in this kit is everything from the Second Developers Release; The Power Macintosh Rhapsody Install CD, The Blue Box Install CD, Third Party Demos & Enterprise Object Framework CD, Yellow Box for Windows 95, and the Rhapsody for PC install CD (actually, I'm including Rhapsody for PC DR 1 and 2 Install Packages), and all the printed documentation.

06-21-2002, 12:42 AM	#3
RacerX Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 212	Rhapsody Applications: As some of you guys know, I have two systems running Rhapsody 5.1 (Rhapsody DR2) on Intel systems (an IBM ThinkPad and a Digital Celebris) and Rhapsody 5.6 (Mac OS X Server 1.2) running on my PowerBook G3. These systems are every day systems for me, so I know how to get them to do what I need in most respects. This is a list of some of the primary apps that I use on these systems. uurf, hopefully this can help you with selling your CDs because you said in the ebay description that: There are significant limitations to this build - you won't be able to run many apps on this build and certainly no Mac OS Classic apps, maybe this would be enough for someone interested, it has been for me the last few years. AppleMenuOptions.app : This was developed after Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) was released and was included with Rhapsody 5.3 and later (Mac OS X Server 1.x). It lets you configure the Apple menu in almost any way you like (mine is very much like my Mac OS 9 Apple menu actually). Calculator.app : Doesn't come with the OS, but you can find it at either Peanuts or Peak, and then use ProjectBuilder to compile it. It is not that different from the Calculator of the Mac OS. Create 5 and the Stone Design Suite : Andrew Stone's collection of apps that do a ton of cool things (you can read more about them at stone.com). Fiend.app : Apple dropped the dock after RDR1, so Fiend jumped in and gave it back, works very much like the old NeXT dock, specially if you set the Workspace Manager's preferences so that minimizing windows sends them to icons at the bottom of the desktop. Mesa3.app : Nice spreadsheet program (if you need a spreadsheet app) OmniPDF.app : This is a very beta version that was not stable for me (it would crash almost anytime I opened a pdf doc). OmniWeb.app : Full version of OmniWeb 3 (thanks Omni for making one for Rhapsody 5.1 for Intel) that works great. PDFView.app : This is how I actually view all my pdf docs in Rhapsody, it can read anything that Acrobat Reader 3.0 can read. TextEdit.app : This is the app that most Mac users dismiss as just SimpleText for Mac OS X when it is actually a feature rich word processor (that allows you to add images and spell check). MailViewer.app : Basically the same as Mail.app from NeXT, and functions like Mail in Mac OS X TIFFant3.app : Image Editor, almost in the same league as Photoshop, but takes some time to get use to (see Caffeine Software's web site for more about it's set of features). WriteUp.app : This is as complete a word processor as any I've ever seen, same league as Word and WordPerfect. PasteUp.app : About on par with PageMaker 5.0, but still a very feature rich page layout program. Stickies.app : You guessed it. TinyInstaller.app : Rhapsody (5.0 and 5.1) does not come with an installer app (Apple dropped the NeXt version and wouldn't replace it until the release of Mac OS X Server 1.0), so you have to use the command line installer.sh which can be a pain. This little app adds a GUI to that command. Chess.app : Same as both the Mac OS X and NeXT versions (how could they improve on perfection). QuickTimePlayer.app : Nice QuickTime 3 application, if you have the full version on some other system you can convert even the latest Star Wars trailers so you can watch them in Rhapsody. RhapsoDoom.app : If you have the full version of Doom or Doom II, you can get them up and running in Rhapsody (this is a beta version, and not totally stable, but still playable). Quake2.app : This only works on the PPC version of Rhapsody 5.1, but runs nicely. Hextris.app : Tetris type app, fun to kill time with. Risk.app : Beta version of the game Risk. Solitaire.app : Scott Anguish's version of the greatest time killer of all time. Balling.app : Another great time killing game. I think that covers most of the stuff that I use that I consider mildly important. They range from freeware to semi-expensive (TIFFany is about $500, WriteUp in in the $300 range, and Create was about $200 the last time I checked). All and all, these apps make Rhapsody a very livable computing environment. I currently have a collection of some 300+ fonts, many of which can be found at http://www.peak.org/next/fonts/ , installing them has something of a trick to it (you have to use the terminal.app if that gives you any idea what is involved) Places to go: http://www.peanuts.org/ http://www.peak.org/apple/rhapsody/ http://www.stepwise.com/

06-21-2002, 10:40 AM	#5
uurf Prospect Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9	DR1 vs DR2 Dear Speed's Older Brother Rex (I loved that show growing up)- Thanks for your comments regarding DR1 vs. DR2, not sure what pics you're refering to, but to my knowledge this is a complete set of DR2 release materials, with some DR1 items thrown in (Rhapsody DR1 for PC, for example). I appreciate the list of apps you use; I never had any of the hardware necessary to run these releases so I have 0 real world experience with them. Hence their "unused" condition. uurf

06-21-2002, 11:39 AM	#6
Blacknova Prospect Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 28	Yellow box being cocoa, and therefore is the 9x code I am looking at. RacerX if you would be willing to answer me some questions to give me a clearer picture, how adaptive is Rhapsody to different filesystems (e.g. will I need to destructively repartite my drive to get it to rock and roll as dual boot? given my Win system is due for it's once yearly format and rebuild, now is as good a time as any). Judging by X Final, I am guessing this thing has the capability to run on UNIX FS and HFS+, though I would be interested to see if it could be made to fly with ext2 or ReiserFS with some hackery magic. Leading on from that bit of speculation... what kinks should I be aware of when handling the i386 arch of this software? Any curve balls it's liable to throw at me (outside of the usual unix type things)?? Lastly... most importantly, how does it feel to run apple software on an i386?? I am considering showing this to my boss (a macfan) simply for the look on his face Greets, Nova __________________ "I am pentium of borg, division is futile, you will be approximated."

06-21-2002, 03:34 PM	#8
Blacknova Prospect Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 28	RacerX, you might have just earned my worship for the next few weeks I get the feeling I am going to be asking you quite a few techie questions over the comming weeks if I run into roadblocks (either with this or with X). The info on the filesystem is great, that gives me a good oversight as to how I can port anything into or out of the system as and when it becomes necessary (for net access I will sit the system behind a hardware router and have it network to that, simple enough, right now I have a kludge solution involving Win ICS, which is better than nothing, but not particularly effective). Going on from what you said: Dual boots are something I have had a fair chunk of experience in (normally from trashing my own system through incorrect implementations), I should be able to rig either lilo or failing that a modified batch file at windows startup to cater for that possibility. Any kinks in the handling of PPP that might be of importance?? (additionally, does it have capability for VPN / PPTP, PPPoA or PPPoE??). Judging by what you said, Appletalk is only limited functionality, so attempting to network through that could be a bad idea. Terminal implementation, how much of BSD (if any) resides within Rhapsody (or if not the BSD subset, what then?), and to what extent can it be beefed up for handling code compiles, etc. (I am not even considering whether source is gonna throw a hickey when I try compiling it because of the system's rather unique situation, I'll deal with that as and when). If it can handle unix comfortably underneath, and allow running of XFree as a secondary manager, then it becomes infinitely more helpful to me. If you have dealt with code compiles, how does it compare with X for speed and stability? At the cost it's going for atm, I'm not fussed about hardware issues, if need be I will rig together a guinea pig from a bunch of old bits and run it through that. When it comes to tinkering, it has to be done, just for the learning experience if nothing else (I am one of these who believes in tinkering for it's own sake). Additionally, if Rhapsody can handle CVS, there's a fair bet that rolling your own drivers might be an option (though equally I can guess that a kernel recompile won't be an option if they need to operate at that level). I can imagine the shock value... wander in to the local mac repair shop with a PC and they'll think you've gone mad, before thinking THEY have gone mad when they see an Apple OS boot up on it (like I said, worth the money for that alone ) Thanks for your time, much appreciated. Nova (btw, if this is getting too techie for people, I am sure we can re-introduce some insanity in here, don't want people's eyes glazing over ) __________________ "I am pentium of borg, division is futile, you will be approximated."

06-21-2002, 12:10 AM	#2
RacerX Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 212	Nice collection... I think I'll send some people over to that link so they'll stop asking for copies of my CDs. So why did you use the DR1 CDs and floppies for the images? Seeing those after reading the title would make me think twice (if I hadn't already read that you were including both sets). It is to bad that Apple just pulled down the PC compatibility page for Rhapsody DR2 (Rhapsody 5.1), that at least would help people figure out what systems it would work on (actually the systems are not the different from systems that would support OPENSTEP 4.2). Best of luck with them (though I think you could have gotten more selling each CD by itself).

06-21-2002, 08:21 AM	#4
Craig R. Arko Site Admin Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,988	I hope Blacknova looks in this thread; he indicated an interest in maybe buying a copy from eBay. What's the deal with the Finder in Rhap/OS X Server 1.2? Is that a Cocoa port or does it run the classic Finder via Bluebox? --- Edit - d'oh; it wouldn't work on the ThinkPad very well if it was Bluebox, now would it, Craig? Sorry...

06-21-2002, 01:09 PM	#7
RacerX Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 212	Craig, What looks like the Finder in Rhapsody 5.x is actually a rework of OPENSTEP's Workspace Manager to look and act similar to the Mac's Finder. In the earlier DP releases of Mac OS X the systems would have both the Workspace Manager and an earlier version of the Carbon Finder (the last version with a Workspace Manager was DP3 as I recall). Blue Box runs the Mac OS in a separate environment (nothing like the rootless way that Classic works today), and requires PPC hardware to run. Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) uses Mac OS 8.1 for the OS in Blue Box, Rhapsody 5.3-5.5 (Mac OS X Server 1.0, 1.0.1 and 1.0.2) all use Mac OS 8.5.1 (upgradable to 8.6), and Rhapsody 5.6 (Mac OS X Server 1.2) has Mac OS 8.6 pre installed. You can't move past 8.6 in Blue Box or it'll stop working. uurf, The images have the checker banned on the CDs which was used on the Rhapsody 5.0 (RDR) release, on the Rhapsody 5.1 (RDR2) CDs you have a colored field and bare CD surface. Most people haven’t actually seen them so I guess it really doesn't make a difference. Nova, Filesystems, there is a good question (that people should ask about more often). Rhapsody 5.0 and Rhapsody 5.1 have their own unique filesystem that is not compatible with any other version (OPENSTEP 4.x and before or Rhapsody 5.3 and later). They can read ISO 9660 CDs, but that is were the ability to work with outside media formats end. Apple specifically said that you could not run OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP on a duel boot system with the Developer Releases. Also Rhapsody for Intel does not come with anything like lilo, so I'm not sure how it works with boot managers. I have run all my systems as 100% Rhapsody systems (no other OS installed) so I don't have any experience trying to run it on a multi OS system (though OPENSTEP and Red Hat seemed to play nice together on one system I set up once, so this may work as nicely). So, no it can't read HFS/HFS+, that wouldn't be added until Rhapsody 5.3. The Workspace Manager is as tied to the filesystem format here as the Finder is in Mac OS X to HFS+, so even if you could get it up and running on something else, you would most likely be looking at the same type of slow down that the Finder faces when installed on UFS formatted systems. What this comes down to from an operational stand point is that Rhapsody's only contact with the outside world is via HTTP/FTP (which is how I move things on and off my systems). It has limited (after thought) support for AppleTalk for printing, but nothing like the vast range of PPDs that come with the 5.6 release (actually 5.1 doesn't come with any PPDs as I recall). My PowerBook prints to quite a few printers including a Phaser 740, HP LaserJet 5000, and a CLC 950 with a Fiery RIP. Also it can only read and write Rhapsody formatted floppies, so unless you have more than one Rhapsody system (like I do), the floppy drive is basically useless after the installation process. What you'll notice with Rhapsody 5.1 is that it looks and feels like the final release of Mac OS X Server 1.0 (without the suite of server apps... which I didn't install on my Rhapsody 5.6/Mac OS X Server 1.2 PowerBook because it is not being used as a server). From 5.1 Apple branched off and made what is a completely new operating system that is Mac OS X. The Darwin kernel is like the Rhapsody kernel in how it is set up, but parts that Apple/NeXT had to license (which made it an expensive system) were removed and replaced in the Darwin version. The application/user environment not only had Carbon APIs added, it removed Adobe's very expensive Display PostScript and replaced it with Apple's Display PDF (GNUstep has been trying to do the same type of work around with Display GhostScript) in Quartz. It runs great on my system, I have had uptimes of over 220 days (before the weather jumps into the mix). Quicktime can be temperamental, and Doom can die (and not in the game sense) after about 5 levels or so. My ThinkPad was (until a few months ago) the system I took with me in the field while making service calls. It has some 3 Gigs of documentation on just about every type of system I work with (Apple, SGI, Sun, Windows and Linux PCs), and needed to be completely reliable and able to provide me with any thing I would need to fix other peoples systems. I think that is a testament for how good it runs considering that people don't usually ask techs back who can't even keep their own systems up while on a call. The biggest problem is drivers. As Craig knows, I was watching my Quicktime movies without sound on my ThinkPad because Apple didn't make any sound drivers for it. And I was lucky that there were any display drivers for the ThinkPad also. Fortunately Jobs continued to use a ThinkPad running OPENSTEP for quite a while after returning to Apple (I think his first PowerBook was actually a Wall Street), so they made sure that his hardware was supported with some drivers. I actually got my ThinkPad 760ED after making sure that both OPENSTEP 4.2 and Rhapsody 5.1 would run on it, otherwise it would have been little more than a big black paper weight to me (I don't use Windows or Linux for anything, so PC hardware that is not NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody compatible is of little use to me, my UNIX systems are Suns and SGIs which have their own special hardware and everything I need Windows/Linux for can be done in VPC). And then there is the shock value. As a primarily Mac consultant, walking into a Mac-only shop with a ThinkPad usually turns some heads... but not as many as when it boots to an Apple OS.

06-21-2002, 03:48 PM	#9
uurf Prospect Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9	DR 1 or DR 2 Based on RacerX's post I did a little more digging. The Installation Manual.pdf on the Rhapsody for PowerPC cd is dated 9/16/97, which leads me to conclude this is in fact DR 1. The set also includes Blue Box, which I thought was post DR 1. But it's there. Finally, the set has DR 1 and 2 of Rhapsody for PC Compatibles. The CD's are at my office, so I'll pick them up and do a bit more digging tonight. I've updated the listing on eBay with a revision - DR 1 complete + DR 2 for PC. uurf

06-22-2002, 01:19 AM	#10
uurf Prospect Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9	They're DR1. I relisted to clear up any confusion. I dug a little deeper and RacerX is right - everything I have is DR1. These CD's were given to me in an envelope labeled "DR2" and I took that at face value, having never had the appropriate hardware to install any of it. Thanks RacerX for your help. I am glad to have cleared this up as I'm not interested in misleading anyone. I also separated out the second set of Rhapsody for PC materials into their own listing. Rhapsody Developer Release 1 - Complete! Rhapsody Developer Release 1 for Intel PCs!

06-22-2002, 08:45 AM	#11
Blacknova Prospect Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 28	I noticed, put the bid back in on the complete set, not interested in a partial kit. Greets, Nova __________________ "I am pentium of borg, division is futile, you will be approximated."

06-22-2002, 10:12 AM	#12
RacerX Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 212	Lets see, what can I say about PPP... okay, I think that covers that subject. Oh, one think I forgot that you could look into, RhapPPP might be of some help. The BSD implementation of Rhapsody is pretty much along the line of every system back to the first NeXTSTEP release (0.8) back in 1988. I don't remember which version Apple upgraded from the original 4.3BSD to 4.4BSD, but I think this version uses 4.4BSD, with tools and libs borrowed from OpenBSD, FreeBSD and NetBSD (as you probably know Mac OS X uses 4.4BSD Lite, where the missing parts of the lite version are being made up for mainly by ports from FreeBSD). Yes make is included (I think it is a port of GNU make for NetBSD as I recall). As for dealing with code, this is a developers release and was designed to help developers write apps for the final releases of Rhapsody (Rhapsody 5.2 was to be the Rhapsody workstation and Rhapsody 5.3 was to be Rhapsody Server... and was later released as Mac OS X Server 1.0), and should be able to handle most anything. The OS is finalized at this point, this was not really a beta as much as a platform to help to have apps ready for the final release that never was. The only thing I've compiled using make was a version of Apache, all other apps were done while in Project Builder, so it didn't seem that different from Mac OS X. It is hard to make any type of speed comparison because I would be comparing a G3/350 (for Mac OS X v10.1.5) or G3/266 (for Rhapsody 5.6) with a Pentium/133 (for Rhapsody 5.1). As for implementing X on it, there are some ports that are ready to go (or used to be at least), but I think you would have a much easier time working with Darwin for Intel in that area. I know the drivers would be easier to come by. One possibility is Xnext, which was design for Rhapsody 5.1. All other aspects of it work as you would expect from a UNIX system. As for using CVS with Rhapsody, it is important to note that this is a closed source operating system. These releases are the 5th full version of this line of operating systems by Apple-NeXT, and include code that is not open to the public and code that has been licensed from other companies. The kernel, while looking and acting like Darwin, is not part of the open source project as Darwin is. Drivers have been a problem from the beginning of Intel support (which I believe was started with NEXTSTEP 3.1), and your in very good company if you start down the path of creating your own drivers (careful stepping over the bodies). This is not to say that it can't be done, and for some hardware it is far easier than others. But for kernel level functions, with no source code and Apple not giving out any additional info on the Intel (or PPC) versions any more, you'll be pretty much in the dark (other than this document). Here again, the Darwin for Intel path would be the best choice for getting started... then at least you would have some idea of the general layout before starting to create Rhapsody drivers. It is important to note that the first developer release (Rhapsody 5.0) was still based mainly on OpenStep. The directory structure and directory names used by OpenStep/Yellow Box apps in this release are actually more like OPENSTEP 4.2 than Rhapsody 5.1 and later. This release was designed to help move developers from the Prelude to Rhapsody (OPENSTEP 4.1, later upgraded to 4.2) to the final version (based on Rhapsody 5.1). Much of this operating system is in a state of flux, and actually looks like OPENSTEP with a Mac theme in many ways. Other than the OS/YB development package and the user interface, the rest of the system is very much like all the other Mach/BSD operating systems put out by Apple-NeXT.