Most Desired OSX feature: Keyboard Navigability

osxpounder · 06-18-2003, 04:23 PM

One [maybe the only] frustration I have with OSX is that it forces me to use the mouse.

Even with all the "Universal Access", and Keyboard prefs engaged to use Tab for "Any Control", it's still not possible to do everything in the GUI with only the keyboard. [Aside from using Mouse Keys--that's a different kind of keyboard control than I'm talking about.]

OSX should get comfy with the general Tab Order convention that is prevalent elsewhere in GUI computing--the Tab key should take your interface's focus to each manipulator, in sequence, and other keys, such as the arrow keys, Enter, or Spacebar, should allow you to manpulate without a mouse.

OSX offers a great deal more of this than previous Mac OSes, I *think*, but it's not taken far enough. There are plenty of occasions when I must use the mouse--and for my own reasons [mainly wear and tear on my carpal tunnel], I'd rather use the keyboard.

nkuvu · 06-18-2003, 04:35 PM

Well I haven't done any development on Macs yet, but I have made programs for Windows. And on Windows, at least, the tab order is totally dependent on the programmer. I've run into quite a few programs on Windows where tab sends you somewhere completely different than what you'd expect.

It's entirely possible that this is the same kind of situation for OS X. I am pretty sure the OS supports proper keyboard support, but the developers haven't gone to any lengths to implement it. Maybe someone with a bit more OS X- specific knowledge of development will pipe in with more accurate information...

AHunter3 · 06-20-2003, 11:42 PM

Actually I find OS X to be a step backwards from System 6 (and 7 and 8 and 9) in terms of keyboard navigability.

Yeah, the "Open/Save/Save As" dialog boxes. That's where it matters the most.

ppmax · 06-21-2003, 04:21 PM

what controls are you having problems accessing with the keyboard? what apps?

i use the keyboard in place of the mouse exclusively at times and i actually find keyboard accessibility pretty good.

osxpounder · 06-27-2003, 03:16 PM

Sorry to be so long replying--I had work to do, and although it seems I frequently encounter a situation where only the mouse will do, I couldn't think of any right away. Since then, I've encountered two that hit me often:

-When I come back to my machine after the screen saver's been on [and I always set it to lock the screen, for security at the office], I must type in my password/phrase to resume using the Mac. Usually I can just start typing, BUT if anything happens behind the locked screen that causes an alert [like, for example, my Mac's speech alert telling me that "Cleaner 6 needs your attention"], I can't do anything on the Mac until I've clicked in the password/phrase entry field:

http://www/~etsjcp/images/no_keyboard_access.jpg
[44kB]

-If I want to open an encrypted disk image, I can't just type in the password/phrase; I must click in the field first:
http://www/~etsjcp/images/also_no_ke...here_edite.jpg
[41kB]

These are things I do at least once a day, so I noticed them after we started this thread. Anyway, it'd just be great if at least one Apple interface designer deprived himself of his/her mouse, just to find out what it's like for a keyboard only user.

Why such a big deal? Because I have tendonitis, and using any mouse hurts more than using a keyboard. Moreover, it's less strain on the arm and shoulders.

AKcrab · 06-27-2003, 04:37 PM

osxpounder, can you check your links?
I get a 'not found' page.

osxpounder · 06-27-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by AKcrab osxpounder, can you check your links? I get a 'not found' page.

Dang. I just checked, and they both work for me, but it's a university web server and I work on campus, so it might be serving me more reliably than the outside world[?]. Maybe the web server's just being hit hard right now; this is a large school and it's a busy server, especially at this time of day. Sorry about that,

osxpounder

mervTormel · 06-27-2003, 05:00 PM

pounder, those are definitely malformed urls...

http://www/~etsjcp/images/no_keyboard_access.jpg

no such domain as "www" to us outsiders

heatht · 06-27-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by osxpounder Dang. I just checked, and they both work for me, but it's a university web server and I work on campus, so it might be serving me more reliably than the outside world[?] osxpounder

The URLs you posted are not complete: there's no domain. Your URLs will only work from a computer on the univ. network. Please include the domain (e.g., www.some_school.edu).

osxpounder · 06-29-2003, 02:01 AM

Quote:


	Originally posted by heatht The URLs you posted are not complete: there's no domain. Your URLs will only work from a computer on the univ. network. Please include the domain (e.g., www.some_school.edu).

Oops! Of course; I read right past that. No wonder they worked for me. Sorry about that! Here's how those sections should have read:

-When I come back to my machine after the screen saver's been on [and I always set it to lock the screen, for security at the office], I must type in my password/phrase to resume using the Mac. Usually I can just start typing, BUT if anything happens behind the locked screen that causes an alert [like, for example, my Mac's speech alert telling me that "Cleaner 6 needs your attention"], I can't do anything on the Mac until I've clicked in the password/phrase entry field:

http://www.gsu.edu/~etsjcp/images/no...ard_access.jpg
[44kB]

-If I want to open an encrypted disk image, I can't just type in the password/phrase; I must click in the field first:
http://www.gsu.edu/~etsjcp/images/al...here_edite.jpg
[41kB]

yubbie2 · 06-29-2003, 02:16 AM

on a similar note it'd be nice to be able to access pull-down menus in safari with the tab key, just like explorer does (probably the one advantage IE has over safari)

osxpounder · 06-29-2003, 03:44 PM

Although Photoshop runs faster on my office Mac, I prefer the PC next to it when I'm going to do long hours of Photoshop work because, in the Win version, I can use keys so much more. Especially for things like Image>Image Size, where I can just whack ALT, i, and i again.

osxfan57 · 07-21-2003, 02:02 AM

Totally agree with Yubbie-2 re the ability to access drop down lists in the browser with the Tab key. It's maddening when filling out a form using the keyboard and pressing Tab, only to have it skip the drop down list entirely. This forces me then to resort to the mouse, breaking the flow of actions. I should be able to keep my hands on the freaking keyboard, as in Windows with Internet Explorer, select the item I want from the list using the keyboard (e.g., pressing the first letter of the name of a state when in an address form), and then move on to the next field, all with the keyboard. It's absurd that we are quite literally forced to use the mouse when we're in the middle of a keyboard set of actions.

mclbruce · 07-21-2003, 08:56 PM

In System 7 there was a program written for Powerbooks called Connectix Powerbook Utilities, or CPU. One of the things this did was provide Windows-like shortcuts for menu items. It worked pretty well back then, on desktops as well as Powerbooks. I haven't seen anything like it for the Mac since.

zzarg · 07-28-2003, 01:06 AM

I agree about improving keyboard control. there are too many times when I have to resort to the mouse (and it's one little button !) when on a PC I can almost always use an Alt-something combination or similar.
Even web pages often support these features, and have active labels for radio buttons / checkboxes, and the tab sequence works right (including radio/checkbox/combo fields, scrolling the screen when it needs to etc)
For a UI that's supposed to be helpful for users wanting to work 'their way' it is very, very mouse-centric... and that's not always the best.
Not arguing that a mouse-driven approach is very quick, and handy, but it can't be too hard to go that extra step and make it really workable for everyone...

osxpounder · 08-01-2003, 02:51 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by zzarg I agree about improving keyboard control. there are too many times when I have to resort to the mouse (and it's one little button !) when on a PC I can almost always use an Alt-something combination or similar....

Just want to point out a bit of good news here: you can go to System Preferences, then Keyboard, and choose one of several ways that you may use your keyboard to access menus, as well as Dock items. The following URL shows a JPG screen shot of my Keyboard prefs panel, which tells the whole story at a glance.

Keyboard Preferences set to allow keyboard access to program menus & Dock

It's not perfect--you still have to hit a few extra keys and use the arrow keys to move around the menus--which is why I seldom use Photoshop on my Mac these days. If I were restricted to only an Apple computer, however, I'm sure I'd be using these keyboard shortcuts more often. It may be helpful to you [hope so].

zzarg · 08-02-2003, 03:14 AM

thanks ! I will try these out as soon as my lovely, 3 week old G4 12" PowerBook comes back from the AppleCentre.... it appears the power management (internal) is fried :-(

Shut down one day, and nothing they could do in the store would make it come back.

Ho hum

cybergoober · 08-02-2003, 08:49 PM

You'll be glad to hear that Panther the Keyboard & Mouse System Preferences pane has a customizable "Keyboard Shortcuts" tab where you can specify keyboard shortcuts on an app-by-app basis or to be used by all apps.

yubbie2 · 08-02-2003, 09:53 PM

finally! *drool*.... mmmm.... paaaaanther

thanks for the heads up!

osxpounder · 08-03-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:


	Originally posted by cybergoober You'll be glad to hear that Panther the Keyboard & Mouse System Preferences pane has a customizable "Keyboard Shortcuts" tab where you can specify keyboard shortcuts on an app-by-app basis or to be used by all apps.

Fantastic! OSX will take another usability leap ahead of my Windows boxes! This is great news.

06-18-2003, 04:23 PM	#1
osxpounder Major Leaguer Join Date: May 2002 Location: atl, ga, usa Posts: 356	Most Desired OSX feature: Keyboard Navigability One [maybe the only] frustration I have with OSX is that it forces me to use the mouse. Even with all the "Universal Access", and Keyboard prefs engaged to use Tab for "Any Control", it's still not possible to do everything in the GUI with only the keyboard. [Aside from using Mouse Keys--that's a different kind of keyboard control than I'm talking about.] OSX should get comfy with the general Tab Order convention that is prevalent elsewhere in GUI computing--the Tab key should take your interface's focus to each manipulator, in sequence, and other keys, such as the arrow keys, Enter, or Spacebar, should allow you to manpulate without a mouse. OSX offers a great deal more of this than previous Mac OSes, I think, but it's not taken far enough. There are plenty of occasions when I must use the mouse--and for my own reasons [mainly wear and tear on my carpal tunnel], I'd rather use the keyboard.

06-27-2003, 03:16 PM	#5
osxpounder Major Leaguer Join Date: May 2002 Location: atl, ga, usa Posts: 356	Here are a couple examples Sorry to be so long replying--I had work to do, and although it seems I frequently encounter a situation where only the mouse will do, I couldn't think of any right away. Since then, I've encountered two that hit me often: -When I come back to my machine after the screen saver's been on [and I always set it to lock the screen, for security at the office], I must type in my password/phrase to resume using the Mac. Usually I can just start typing, BUT if anything happens behind the locked screen that causes an alert [like, for example, my Mac's speech alert telling me that "Cleaner 6 needs your attention"], I can't do anything on the Mac until I've clicked in the password/phrase entry field: http://www/~etsjcp/images/no_keyboard_access.jpg [44kB] -If I want to open an encrypted disk image, I can't just type in the password/phrase; I must click in the field first: http://www/~etsjcp/images/also_no_ke...here_edite.jpg [41kB] These are things I do at least once a day, so I noticed them after we started this thread. Anyway, it'd just be great if at least one Apple interface designer deprived himself of his/her mouse, just to find out what it's like for a keyboard only user. Why such a big deal? Because I have tendonitis, and using any mouse hurts more than using a keyboard. Moreover, it's less strain on the arm and shoulders.

06-29-2003, 03:44 PM	#12
osxpounder Major Leaguer Join Date: May 2002 Location: atl, ga, usa Posts: 356	I prefer Photoshop on Windows because of menu keys Although Photoshop runs faster on my office Mac, I prefer the PC next to it when I'm going to do long hours of Photoshop work because, in the Win version, I can use keys so much more. Especially for things like Image>Image Size, where I can just whack ALT, i, and i again.

06-18-2003, 04:35 PM	#2
nkuvu MVP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 1,236	Well I haven't done any development on Macs yet, but I have made programs for Windows. And on Windows, at least, the tab order is totally dependent on the programmer. I've run into quite a few programs on Windows where tab sends you somewhere completely different than what you'd expect. It's entirely possible that this is the same kind of situation for OS X. I am pretty sure the OS supports proper keyboard support, but the developers haven't gone to any lengths to implement it. Maybe someone with a bit more OS X- specific knowledge of development will pipe in with more accurate information...

06-20-2003, 11:42 PM	#3
AHunter3 Hall of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 3,032	Actually I find OS X to be a step backwards from System 6 (and 7 and 8 and 9) in terms of keyboard navigability. Yeah, the "Open/Save/Save As" dialog boxes. That's where it matters the most.

06-21-2003, 04:21 PM	#4
ppmax Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 69	what controls are you having problems accessing with the keyboard? what apps? i use the keyboard in place of the mouse exclusively at times and i actually find keyboard accessibility pretty good.

06-27-2003, 04:37 PM	#6
AKcrab MVP Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Wasilla, AK Posts: 1,043	osxpounder, can you check your links? I get a 'not found' page.

06-27-2003, 05:00 PM	#8
mervTormel League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,536	pounder, those are definitely malformed urls... http://www/~etsjcp/images/no_keyboard_access.jpg no such domain as "www" to us outsiders

06-29-2003, 02:16 AM	#11
yubbie2 Triple-A Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Houston - Though I'd rather be in Boston! Posts: 192	on a similar note it'd be nice to be able to access pull-down menus in safari with the tab key, just like explorer does (probably the one advantage IE has over safari)

07-21-2003, 02:02 AM	#13
osxfan57 Prospect Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 12	Totally agree with Yubbie-2 re the ability to access drop down lists in the browser with the Tab key. It's maddening when filling out a form using the keyboard and pressing Tab, only to have it skip the drop down list entirely. This forces me then to resort to the mouse, breaking the flow of actions. I should be able to keep my hands on the freaking keyboard, as in Windows with Internet Explorer, select the item I want from the list using the keyboard (e.g., pressing the first letter of the name of a state when in an address form), and then move on to the next field, all with the keyboard. It's absurd that we are quite literally forced to use the mouse when we're in the middle of a keyboard set of actions.

07-21-2003, 08:56 PM	#14
mclbruce Hall of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,878	In System 7 there was a program written for Powerbooks called Connectix Powerbook Utilities, or CPU. One of the things this did was provide Windows-like shortcuts for menu items. It worked pretty well back then, on desktops as well as Powerbooks. I haven't seen anything like it for the Mac since.

07-28-2003, 01:06 AM	#15
zzarg Prospect Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 8	I agree about improving keyboard control. there are too many times when I have to resort to the mouse (and it's one little button !) when on a PC I can almost always use an Alt-something combination or similar. Even web pages often support these features, and have active labels for radio buttons / checkboxes, and the tab sequence works right (including radio/checkbox/combo fields, scrolling the screen when it needs to etc) For a UI that's supposed to be helpful for users wanting to work 'their way' it is very, very mouse-centric... and that's not always the best. Not arguing that a mouse-driven approach is very quick, and handy, but it can't be too hard to go that extra step and make it really workable for everyone...

08-02-2003, 03:14 AM	#17
zzarg Prospect Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 8	thanks ! I will try these out as soon as my lovely, 3 week old G4 12" PowerBook comes back from the AppleCentre.... it appears the power management (internal) is fried :-( Shut down one day, and nothing they could do in the store would make it come back. Ho hum

08-02-2003, 08:49 PM	#18
cybergoober Triple-A Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Newport News, VA U.S.A. Posts: 110	You'll be glad to hear that Panther the Keyboard & Mouse System Preferences pane has a customizable "Keyboard Shortcuts" tab where you can specify keyboard shortcuts on an app-by-app basis or to be used by all apps.

08-02-2003, 09:53 PM	#19
yubbie2 Triple-A Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Houston - Though I'd rather be in Boston! Posts: 192	finally! drool.... mmmm.... paaaaanther thanks for the heads up!