RobG's idea to install applications on 2nd partition rather than clean 10.3 partition

[elvey]

Thanks for your reply! ...

Quote: Originally Posted by acme.mail.order in general it's not. Drives are much bigger today than when this discussion started nearly 10 years ago.

Sure, but the relative performance of multiple spindles over one hasn't changed much.

Quote: Some people move /Users to a different volume - the Server version contains a simple mechanism to do this via sharepoints. There are very few reasons to move /Users on the Client OS. Redirecting a single folder to an external volume (e.g. a temp folder) can be done with the symlink method - simple, doesn't break easily, no messing about with the system internals.

I found that symlinks didn't work well - and detailed what worked and what didn't for me in the thread I linked to.

Quote: What, exactly, are you trying to do and why? What kind of external disk? (size / speed / interface?) If it's a USB pocket drive then you can stop now - you won't gain anything. At minimum you will need a full-size drive in a FireWire 800 or Thunderbolt case (or a Mac Pro) to make it worthwhile.

I think the thread I linked to when i wrote:

Quote: Details of what I want, have tried, and my results are here https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3583219

answers these questions you ask.

For example, I start off with:

Quote: Ok, so I*got a 24GB SSD ExpressCard ("Wintec FileMate SolidGO" MLC flash drive; Max. Sustained Sequential Read: 115 MB/s & Write: 65 MB/s. ) for my MacBook Pro (MB133LL/A).

That's better read performance than one can get over firewire 800.
So I think the performance boost this li'l SSD can get me is substantial.

(If I'd known this would be so problematic, I'd probably have popped for a Momentus XT Hybrid, even though their price had spiked due to supply issues. But I'm not keen to give up just yet.)

I'm running 10.6 off the HD, and 10.7 off the SSD (not at the same time), and want both to use /Users on the HD. I'd planned to have both OSes use the HD's /var and /tmp. I want most apps on the SSD, but not all will fit.

[elvey]

Any follow-up? Anything I can add?

[DeltaMac]

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey ... I want most apps on the SSD, but not all will fit.

You could give yourself a lot more space on the SSD!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820161553

[elvey]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeltaMac You could give yourself a lot more space on the SSD! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820161553

Like I said,

Quote: If I'd known this would be so problematic, I'd probably have popped for a Momentus XT Hybrid... But I'm not keen to give up just yet.

I also want to learn from this!

[DeltaMac]

If you want to learn something - it seems your main 'problem' is an SSD with not-quite-enough room for what you want to do - which is a simple fix, eh?

[elvey]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeltaMac If you want to learn something - it seems your main 'problem' is an SSD with not-quite-enough room for what you want to do - which is a simple fix, eh?

Ok, smart alec.

[benwiggy]

No one has pointed out that you can set the location of the User account by right clicking on the user in System Prefs > Users & Groups (or Accounts, as was). You get an Advanced Options menu item, which reveals ... more options.

One of those is the location of the user account.
Bear in mind that when you change it and reboot, the OS will look for the user account in that new location. If it's not there, it will create an empty one.
If the new location can't be found, then an empty account of that name will be created in the default location.

Also bear in mind that there are great opportunities to give yourself all sorts of problems here.

However, I would concur that a 24Gb flash drive is barely approaching the margins of utility as a system disk.

[chabig]

I really hope that was a typo and he has a 240GB drive.

[elvey]

Quote: Originally Posted by chabig I really hope that was a typo and he has a 240GB drive.

Ok, smart alec.

I have a 500GB rotating drive. Just 8GB of flash is plenty to make a system perform much like it's got a 500GB flash drive. The proof can be found in Seagate Momentus XT reviews. If symlinks had worked as well as folks suggested they would, then my 24GB drive would have been more than adequate; it would have been wasteful to pay a few hundred more for a pure SSD solution than for a hybrid solution that would have similar performance, but not require a lengthy hardware installation process, and be less tuneable. My workload is such that nearly all my disk access is to under 24GB of data, but there's well over 240GB of data that I want to have with me in my MBP.


There are still plenty of valid reasons to want tmp, var, Users and apps on different disks. It's sad that Mac OS X is just about incapable of properly doing something that other unix-based OSes can do easily.

[elvey]

Quote: Originally Posted by benwiggy No one has pointed out that you can set the location of the User account by right clicking on the user in System Prefs > Users & Groups (or Accounts, as was). You get an Advanced Options menu item, which reveals ... more options. One of those is the location of the user account. Bear in mind that when you change it and reboot, the OS will look for the user account in that new location. If it's not there, it will create an empty one. If the new location can't be found, then an empty account of that name will be created in the default location. Also bear in mind that there are great opportunities to give yourself all sorts of problems here.

Thanks for the info!

Quote: However, I would concur that a 24Gb flash drive is barely approaching the margins of utility as a system disk.

Yes, but only because Mac OS X is just about incapable of properly doing something that other unix-based OSes can do easily.

[benwiggy]

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey Just 8GB of flash is plenty to make a system perform much like it's got a 500GB flash drive. The proof can be found in Seagate Momentus XT reviews. If symlinks had worked as well as folks suggested they would, then my 24GB drive would have been more than adequate

I'm not sure that you can replicate the function of a hybrid drive, which uses its own caching techniques between integrated components, with two separate drives. Even if you were running FreeBSD.
Using symlinks to a mechanical drive is not going to give you the same speed. Once the data needs to come from the HDD, then you're going to get a bottleneck.

I've just bought a 240Gb SSD for £109. From what I've seen, you should be able to pick up one similar for a similarly small sum. You don't need to spend "hundreds of dollars more" for something that would be a much more practical solution.
You probably could get the system to run on 24Gb, and move things like Applications, Users, etc to a hard drive. But part of the utility of an SSD is having the applications load up at lightning speeds too.

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey Yes, but only because Mac OS X is just about incapable of properly doing something that other unix-based OSes can do easily.

OS X is designed for the hardware that Apple supplies, which doesn't currently include 24Gb system disks. (Indeed, most of the first Macs to ship with OS X had more storage than that.)

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey and be less tuneable.

Obligatory car analogy: My first car was a Morris Minor Traveller. It is roughly contemporary with Unix. It had a very simple engine, with large areas of empty space around it, so you could work at it. I repaired the carburettor once with the E string from a guitar.
A modern car has virtually no hand-repairable components, and the bonnet is completely rammed with sealed units. There are many advantages, but you can't tinker with it at much. OS X is like this. There is no tuning to be done.

[elvey]

Quote: Originally Posted by benwiggy I'm not sure that you can replicate the function of a hybrid drive, which uses its own caching techniques between integrated components, with two separate drives. Even if you were running FreeBSD. Using symlinks to a mechanical drive is not going to give you the same speed. Once the data needs to come from the HDD, then you're going to get a bottleneck.

I am sure - that symlinked apps work perfectly in other Unixes where such use has been standard operating procedure for decades. Having 3 x the flash is more than enough to make up for not having the hybrid drive's caching techniques.

Quote: I've just bought a 240Gb SSD for £109. From what I've seen, you should be able to pick up one similar for a similarly small sum. You don't need to spend "hundreds of dollars more" for something that would be a much more practical solution.

You're confused. "Hundreds of dollars more" for a 500GB+ SSD WAS what was required at the time I bought the ExpressCard SSD. Similarly, I don't think 500GB or even 240GB ExpressCard/34 SSDs are even available, even today, let alone for under $200. Oh, and you keep mistakenly writing 240Gb instead of 240GB; one talks about drive sizes in bytes, not bits. Can I get a 500GB Momentus XT Hybrid for under $100 today? Yes!

Quote: You probably could get the system to run on 24Gb, and move things like Applications, Users, etc to a hard drive. But part of the utility of an SSD is having the applications load up at lightning speeds too.

Again, you're confused. Lion (including a 6GB sleepimage file, unfortunately) and all the apps I use daily fit in 24GB, and I have 22% free space. But a few lesser-used apps don't, and Users doesn't.

Quote: OS X is designed for the hardware that Apple supplies, which doesn't currently include 24Gb system disks. (Indeed, most of the first Macs to ship with OS X had more storage than that.)

What I want should be doable on an Xserve <RIP> and Mac Pro, irrespective of disk size, but it isn't.

Quote: Obligatory car analogy: ...OS X is like this. There is no tuning to be done.

The many folks who write and use apps like Onyx would beg to differ. It's a whole product category...

[benwiggy]

Hmm. Let's take it down a notch. Things seem to be getting unnecessarily heated.
I'm going to ignore several bits which I could argue against, but which would be futile, and instead let's deal with only the technical issues, which are both relevant and useful:

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey I am sure - that symlinked apps work perfectly in other Unixes where such use has been standard operating procedure for decades. Having 3 x the flash is more than enough to make up for not having the hybrid drive's caching techniques.

When you said "Just 8GB of flash is plenty to make a system perform much like it's got a 500GB flash drive," I assumed that meant that you could achieve some sort of caching on the flash drive. However, if you're just symlinking to a slower drive, I fail to see how this will speed things up.
I have symlinked the Applications folder to another drive before, though it was in an earlier version of OS X, so I'm not sure what if anything may have changed. What is in the crash log of Office? And the folder itself has the same permissions, ACLs, name and path on the other drive?

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey The many folks who write and use apps like Onyx would beg to differ. It's a whole product category...

Yes, and so is snake oil. There is absolutely no need to run any regular maintenance apps on OS X. I'm not saying that Onyx and similar programs are without use -- they are very useful when you do have a problem -- but they are not necessary for general use and there is no "optimization" of OS X required.

Quote: Originally Posted by elvey "Hundreds of dollars more" for a 500GB+ SSD WAS what was required at the time I bought the ExpressCard SSD. Similarly, I don't think 500GB or even 240GB ExpressCard/34 SSDs are even available, even today, let alone for under $200. Can I get a 500GB Momentus XT Hybrid for under $100 today? Yes!

My point stands that you could save yourself a lot of time and aggravation by a relatively small purchase of more appropriate and useful hardware.