You'll be able to knock on "Woody" :)
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/

http://images.freshmeat.net/screenshots/25284_thumb.jpg

Boy, you miss a day around here and it's like a whole world of information has passed you by. Some very interesting points have been brought up. Now I'm thinking that the best way for me to experience Debian would be to buy another hard drive and install it as the slave in my G4, dedicate it entirely to Debian and never look back at multi-boot system wackiness like all this again.

OTOH, as stated on the Debian GNU/Linux PowerPC PowerMac Page; Shortly, you may also have the option of running Debian within a Darwin system.

Wouldn't it be neat if you could get the whole enchilada through fink?

I also thought about my other old world macs but decided against that because it was the speed of the Debian OS that intrigued me the most. And an old PowerMac 7500/G3 500 or a Powerbook 3400/240 just wouldn't cut it now that I have the new world system.

Thanks to all who have helped me to decide all this and for providing all the great info. I am still intrigued about Debian and will remain open to the subject. But I'm not sure I want to plunk down the $ for the slave drive right now.

That would be wonderful!!!!!!! That would make me happier than my cat sleeping with his paws in the air next to the wood stove!

I'll give you a little example of what Debian can do. At work, someone had an old Compaq portable 1200 series with a three GB hard drive and 64 ram, 133. Not fast, and XP was simply out of the question for that clunker. I installed Debian on it... just Debian. It now runs faster than a new Thinkpad with XP. .... a real resurrection! The only modification was the addition of a card modem in the PC Card slot.

I have been using Debian since the very first available release..... Debian 0.91 in 1994. I was lucky enough have access through a University.

This is also why I have been diagnosed as having very strong Free Software tendencies, a predelection towards the word GNU, and gnalways tend towards community-based rather than strictly commercial projects. GNUdness GNUracious! .... Someone stop me before I write a book!

<<<<Wouldn't it be neat if you could get the whole enchilada through fink?>>>>>

Actually, that's just about what we have right now!

BTW & Post Scriptum: Don't forget to try out Gnome.... I notice that a few users of Fink did not know how to add items to the Gnome Menu System because Gnome requires "root access" to add stuff. The last thing you want to do is to log in as root to modify a Gnome menu. That may work in Linux but it is not recommended here. All you have to do is to open a terminal from within Gnome and type "sudo gmenu" and Voila...... there you have it. Gnome works really well on Fink. It is one million five-hunderd thousand three-hundred and sisty-four times faster than KDE. :)

ok, you asked for it!
Sounds like you might just want to write that book. Go ahead, I will read it!
Come to think of it, I have an (other) old powerbook, 3400; it's only used for some lightweight accounting and email (not by me). Why don't I just take it back and mess it up with Debian to see how it would perform?

I haven't tried out gnome yet. And when I pull up a 'fink list gnome', I get a lot of different packages in the list. Which ones and how many of them do I need? And are they available in binary and could be obtained with apt-get? Otherwise, from source and depending on how many packages are needed, it looks like it could take a while.

tjj, I'd be interested to hear how your old powerbook 3400 turns out with debian. Hey, if it's really fast as that example from Glanz and the compaq dinosaur, then I would give that some serious thought.

Okay, I found an old thread called, 'installing gnome', which was very long and somewhat side tracked a bit but still very good and informative. What I surmised from it is that:

1) It takes a really long time to do gnome from source but then you can update gnome as it progresses with new builds later on.

2) If you use apt-get, gnome will install relatively quickly but then you cannot update it to the latest builds.

3) Most folks seemed to like oroborus better than a full KDE or gnome installation possibly due to too many task bars and widgets or some such. Since I haven't used the full KDE or gnome or even oroborus, I'm not certain about those particulars.

thatch,
When I get the time a will definitely mess up the 3400, but it may take a while, though. Being, understatement: unexperienced in the Realm of Unix, I anticipate it may eat up a lot of time for me. I will get to it finally, though, and will be happy to post results of the adventure.
I'm sure The Book of Glanz will be out soon, or at the least his 'Debian onto PowerPC revisited' guidelines will be posted shortly.:)

tjj, that would be great. If it works out well for you then I may choose to do the same to my old 3400, that is if I can pry it away from my wife who has sort of taken it over as of late. BTW, how much ram does your's have? Mine has 48 MB.

I wish Glanz would come back and post some more of his valuable knowledge on this and many other subjects. He can be very inspiring with his positive energy.

thatch, your wife must be like mine. She has gotten quite proprietary with the 3400:)
Ram? Has it got ram? hehe
80Mb!!

As i said, it may be a while before I get to it, as I'm still recovering from two drive failures on my primary Pismo. I'm getting pretty much behind with real work, so coupla months is best guess (well, maybe shorter).
Do go ahead if you can wrestle it away from your wife:D And - Good luck!

I'd like to see what Glanz will come up with, though.

Please don't ever accuse me of being positive!!!!!! :D

Here's some info, and please note that the 3400 is on the list.

I installed Debian on an old grey Toshiba portable yesterday for a friend. .. [1GB hard disk 32 RAM] It works fine. Not only that it smokes!!!

There are four major supported powerpc flavors: PMac (Power-Macintosh), Apus, CHRP and PReP machines. Ports to other powerpc architectures, such as the Be-Box and MBX architecture, are underway but not yet supported by Debian. We may have a 64bit port (Power3) in the future.

Apple (and briefly a few other manufacturers - Power Computing, for example) makes a series of Macintosh computers based on the PowerPC processor. For purposes of architecture support, they are categorized as Nubus, OldWorld PCI, and NewWorld.

Nubus systems are not currently supported by debian/powerpc. The monolithic Linux/PPC kernel architecture does not have support for these machines; instead, one must use the MkLinux Mach microkernel, which Debian does not yet support. These include the 6100/7100/8100 line of Power Macintoshes.

OldWorld systems are most Power Macintoshes with a floppy drive and a PCI bus. Most 603, 603e, 604, and 604e based Power Macintoshes are OldWorld machines. The beige colored G3 systems are also OldWorld.

The so called NewWorld PowerMacs are any PowerMacs in translucent colored plastic cases. The NewWorld PowerMacs are also known for using the `ROM in RAM' system for MacOS, and were manufactured from mid-1998 onwards.

Here is a list of powerpc machines which should work with Debian.
Model Name/Number Architecture
Apple
iMac Bondi Blue, 5 Flavors, Slot Loading powermac-NewWorld
iMac Summer 2000, Early 2001 powermac-NewWorld
iBook, iBook SE, iBook Dual USB powermac-NewWorld
iBook2 powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh Blue and White (B&W) G3 powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 PCI, AGP, Cube powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 Gigabit Ethernet powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 Digital Audio, Quicksilver powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G3 FireWire Pismo (2000) powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G3 Lombard (1999) powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G4 Titanium powermac-NewWorld
Performa 4400, 54xx, 5500 powermac-OldWorld
Performa 6300, 6360, 6400, 6500 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 4400, 5400 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 7200, 7300, 7500, 7600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 8200, 8500, 8600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 9500, 9600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh (Beige) G3 Minitower powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh (Beige) Desktop, All-in-One powermac-OldWorld
PowerBook 2400, 3400, 3500 powermac-OldWorld
PowerBook G3 Wallstreet (1998) powermac-OldWorld
Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh powermac-OldWorld
Workgroup Server 7250, 8550, 9650, G3 powermac-OldWorld
Power Computing
PowerBase, PowerTower / Pro, PowerWave powermac-OldWorld
PowerCenter / Pro, PowerCurve powermac-OldWorld
UMAX
C500, C600, J700, S900 powermac-OldWorld
APS
APS Tech M*Power 604e/2000 powermac-OldWorld
Motorola
Starmax 3000, 4000, 5000, 5500 powermac-OldWorld
Firepower, PowerStack Series E, PowerStack II PReP
MPC 7xx, 8xx PReP
MTX, MTX+ PReP
MVME2300(SC)/24xx/26xx/27xx/36xx/46xx PReP
MCP(N)750 PReP
IBM RS/6000
40P, 43P PReP
Power 830/850/860 (6070, 6050) PReP
6015, 6030, 7025, 7043 PReP
p640 PReP
Amiga Power-UP Systems (APUS)
A1200, A3000, A4000 APUS

Here is a list of machines which are not known to work with Debian. They may well work, and we'd like to hear if you test one and have some success.
Model Name/Number Architecture
IBM Longtrail II, First 'free' or 'open' PowerPC Board CHRP
7248-100,7248-120,7248-132 PReP

One way to find out if Debian can be installed, and to learn a few tricks too, is to check the NetBSD info on Mac installations here http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/models.html In general, if it will fly on NetBSD, it will fly on Debian, but the opposite is not necessarily true. Debian seems to go on just about anything too.

Here's an interesting link
http://www.rapierbit.org/linux/partition.html#link1
for "oldies"....... [install/partition with OS9]

"lowendmac" link
 

http://www.lowendmac.com/unix/02/0319.html

for instaling Debian::an excerpt... there's much more... with some good links...

<<<<<My efforts to get Debian Linux running on my trusty old box ran into one final wrinkle -- the Linux kernel that came on my CD is an older version (2.2.10) which does not support the SE/30. The Linux kernel is the very core of the operating system, and if it won't work on your Mac, your Linux adventures will grind to a halt. On the official CD-ROM, the kernel you'll be using lives in the :install:mac folder in a file simply titled "linux".

The solution to this problem -- as documented in the aforementioned SE/30 Debian Install guide -- is to copy much of this :install:mac folder to your hard disk's Mac OS partition. Once there, you can download a newer kernel (version 2.2.19) from the address given in the guide and add it to your copy of the folder in place of the original linux file.

When it comes to working out what kernel version your machine needs, you may have to look around for the information. There may be something floating around on the net telling at what version support for the various Mac models was added to the kernel, but if it exists, I don't know where. Once again, the key seems to be experimentation. Try initialising the installation process using the kernel from the CD and see what happens. You'll know if the kernel proves incompatible with your machine as the Mac will almost certainly lock solid as soon as the Penguin loader tries boot up your Linux session.

Even if the kernel you have is compatible with your Mac, it might be a good idea to grab a newer one anyway as the stability and feature set of the kernel improves with each new release. If you do take this approach however, bear in mind that your Mac OS partition must be large enough to accommodate these extra files.>>>>

More old stuff ......SE/30 Debian install Potato, Kernel 2.2.19, Penguin 17 Oldie
 

SE/30 Debian install Potato, Kernel 2.2.19, Penguin 17


Audience: beginner's, newbies, MacOS users uninitate in the ways of linux
the curious.

http://www.geocities.com/wcrowshaw.g...to_install.txt

Better make a copy of that because I don't know how long it will be there...... Here's part of it... (about one tenth of the complete text)...

<<<Stage 1)

Overview: what you need to do on your Mac to install Debian Linux.


1) Partition Hard drive.
In this step, you will partition your hard drive so that you will have a partition
reserved for the MacOS which you will need to boot into Linux and partitions (or partitions)
for linux to use.

This can be done in several different ways using several different applications.
On the MacOS you can use "Apple HD SC Setup" application or FWB's hard disk software
called "Hard Disk Toolkit PE". On the linux OS, you can use a program called "pmac-fdisk"
which is accessible on the Debian Linux installer.

For many reasons, I chose Apple's "Apple HD SC Setup." To use this application for
partition, you need to obtain version 7.3.5. This version of Apple HD SC Setup will
allow you to create partitions that linux can immediately use. You can obtain the
program here: ftp://ftphqx.info.apple.com/Apple_Su...7.3.5.sea.hqx.
If you computer has a non-Apple hard drive, you will not be able to partition your
hard drive with version 7.3.5 in its current form. It does not recognize non-Apple hard drive.
You will instead need to obtain a patched version of Apple HD SC Setup available here:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/patch.html. You can also patch the program quite
easily yourself using ResEdit. Instructions can be also found at: http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/patch.html

To use use this partitioning software, you will need
to be able to boot into the MacOS using a disk other than the one you are currently
running the MacOS, or the one using the System Folder as its system. This is true
for any partitioning software. They will not partition a hard drive which is running
the System Software. You must instead use another drive or boot floppy.

For my partionting, I choose to use Apple's Apple HD SC Setup (actually, in conjunction
with "pmac-fdisk" to utilize every byte of my Hard drive.) To use this program,
I create a boot floppy which the HD SC Setup on it. The creation is quite easy.
Make a copy of your 7.0.1 "Disk Tools" disk and replace the current 7.0.1 version
of HD SC Setup with the 7.3.5 version (patched version if necessary). You can
now use this boot floppy by inserting immediately upon startup. Your Mac will
recognize that it has a System Folder which it can use as the current operating
system.

Once booted, you can now use HD SC Setup to partition your Mac hard drive.
<detail instruction can be inserted here>.

For my SE which has a 350MB non-Apple Hard drive I chose to create three partitions:
one for the MacOS and 2 for Linux. I reserved 7.3MBs for the MacOS. This amount
takes into consideration the fact that you also need to place files related to
you Linux installer on your MacOS as well as the MacOS system itself. In addition,
I created 2 partition for linux of size 27MBs which will be used by Linux for what is
called the "swap" partition. In addition, I create ad 323MB partition upon which
linux will be installed.

<insert an explanation of various partitioning schemes here>

For your purpose, all that you should know is that your swap partition should
be at least twice the side of your machines current RAM and no these that 25MBS.
My maching has 8MBS of RAM (I don't think you can installed Linux with
anything less), and I chose a swap of 27MBS.

To partition your hard drive, you will need to hit the custom button of HD SC Setup.
You will need to delete or "remove" all your partitions except the partition
reserved for the Mac Driver which is neccessary to use the CD.

Then, I first created an MacOS partion and chose Apple_HFS as its type. Second,
I created the smaller swap partition and made it a "A/UX Swap slice 1". I then
created the final partition and made it a "Apple_UNIX_SVR2" partition. It is also
called a root/usr partition.>>>

Excellent!
 

Glanz,

Okay, I won't accuse you of being positive then. But I'm glad you accept the inspiring part. :)

Thanks for posting all that excellent info. I had read some of it in my recent investigations of the multi-boot system and you furnished a lot of other things I haven't seen too.

So, I see it's not only possible to install Debian on my old 3400 with low ram. But it might even make it sing compared to it's present speed which is way slow. Now I'm thinking that I should just go for it on my 7500 since it is reasonably fast, 500 Mghz, and then my wife can continue to use the power book without learning a new OS. :D

Having said that, about the 7500, it's got low ram as well, only 64 MB. But with Debian that doesn't seem as it would be bad. Of course, I'd want to back everything up on it just in case I ever want to have it back the old way. But I have a feeling I may not once I get it Debianized.

You've given me a lot to think about here. I will begin this as soon as I know I have the time. Unfortunately, most of my time towards my computer (fun) learning is rather piecemeal. And I don't want to be interrupted during this venture. It probably wouldn't be an interruptable kind of thing or I'd screw it up too.

I may have more questions for you once I get into this. I hope you don't mind me bugging you for some of them.

And that reminds me, in another thread called, "mounting debian linux server drive under OSX", I was wondering if you might have the answer with your experience. Would you mind having a look at it? TIA

tjj,

Wow! If your old PB has 80 MB ram, you should be able to really enjoy it with Debian, when you have time of course. I'll keep you posted on my adventures with this.

yes! Thank you Glanz, though not for making me itch to try this! I better lock it up somewhere!

thatch, looking forward to read about your experience.

The Debian installer is what some mistakenly call a "text-based" installer... It really isn't in the strict sense of the word. It is a "semi'GUI" keyboard-based installer. Now, once Debian has been installed, it works on APT, dpkg, etc, just like Fink. It's a dream.... Never will you have dependency problems. The Debian team is the geekiest team of developers in existence and are scattered all around the world. The original Linux pioneers are associated with Debian. Linus uses Debian, and here's a list of a few others that do also: http://www.debian.org/users/

The Debian installer can be a bear for someone who has been used to the "drag n' drop" method of doing things. It isn't screwed up like the BSD installers though.... now they really suk big time.

The Deb team is working on a totally graphic GUI as installer, but it will take time. When asked why, when the APT tools of Debian were so great and the Distro itself was so free of glitches and disappointments, the installer was rather "geekish" still, the Debian team responded; "Because you only need the installer once"... In fact they are right. One of my machines has had Debian for five years now and I only used the installer once... yet the distro is totally up to date. I have managed to do kernel upgrades and all without a reinstall.

One thing you'll notice about Debian is that all the apps work as they should..... all of them. And there are thousands..... But on a low end machine, I recommend keeping it simple, like using Windowmaker, Blackbox, Xfce, and possibly Gnome as WMs. Install Mozilla, just to have the pleasure of using the Galeon web browser that happens to be the fastest, most configurable browser in existence.

When I installed the other day on that old Toshiba, I kept things down to a 400-500 MB install..for a 1GB drive.. The fact is that a 30 MB install will also work. 60 is a sweet spot. 400 is an ideal fast distro with everything including the kitchen sink, minus servers.....

I recommend that you print out all the relevant material concerning the installation on your particular machine before starting. You'll also need all the hardware specs. Maake sure the installation plan is clearly installed in your head before transfering to a hard disk :)......

Just a personal note....
 

Thatch once mentioned that maybe Debian will be available someday, much as OpenDarwin apps are for installation to a "Debian" directory, or something like that, much as Fink to an "/sw" directory. This is not so crazy an idea. The only probs now concern the file system compatability.

I'll give you a few examples. NetBSD can install on virtually any hardware. Debian also. So those who have stated in articles, defending Intel, that Linux etc is for the PC, are frankly full of bullpucky. Debian works as fast and as well on Mac hardware as it does on an ugly PC tower that looks more like a coffin for a pet cat than a computer. In other words, Debian and the BSDs, particularly NetBSD, aren't at all "prejudiced" concerning machinery. Only Intel integrists and Monopolo$$$oft fanatics are.

So, what I want to say is that since Apple came out with OS X, and started also supporting the Open Source Community [a little bit]..... , they not only have proven that their machines are really good, in spite of the "speed myth" propagated by Intel, but combinations of OS X with apps and/or "layers" of other Unix-type systems, will really threaten TellyTubby$oft's totaltarian hold on the industry's pocketbook.

I think I have some cd's with potato for ppc on somewhere, so if I could "just" get that to work, then opgrade will be a walk in the park (in comparison)?
Yeah, right!

Thanks for all those links!