Debian and Mac OS X
 

I became a bit intrigued by some comments from Glanz in another thread and asked a few off topic questions about having Debian/GNU linux on a spare partition. But I never got a reply so I thought I better research a bit on my own.

After doing just that and finding a lot of info, I have a question about the pre-partitioning for this as noted here where it says you can install it if you have some spare partitions but you need to have a placeholder partition at the beginning of the scheme before any Mac partitions. That's a bit confusing.

I gather that you'd need to repartition anyway then because most of us Mac users aren't going to just happen to have an empty, small partition at the beginning of our drives hanging around waiting for something like this which makes the whole idea of adding debian linux to an existing Mac OS install without repartitioning kind of moot.

Also, the instructions imply that debian will need to be on a regular HFS partition, not HFS+, and that in order to share files across with my existing Mac partitions, an exchange partition could be helpful. That complicates things even more than I had anticipated.

Apparently, later on in the install process, you are able to create more linux partitions for whatever you need. And to be a fully functional install, a root partition, swap partition and at least one other will be necessary. The original placeholder partition will be changed and reused somewhere right about then too. But it's still getting more slicey and dicey by the moment.

My rig has six partitions currently and two of them are free space but are not at the beginning of the disk. Looks like for me, I'd have to clone all my stuff off to my external and then do the partition scheme from scratch, then clone my stuff back, then install debian, then partition some more and continue on with the rest of the installation. Yikes!

Anyone with any thoughts or knowledge about any of this, I would sure like to hear from you. TIA!

This time I will get back to you. I sent a letter out to some friends at Debian.org..... I have another iBook at work that belongs to the University on which I installed Debian, but without partitions for OS X. In other words, the whole drive is occupied by Debian. Since I have an enormous amount of scientific apps on it, and several data bases for the info they produce, I have 9GB taken by Debian on a 15 GB hard drive.

Normally when one installs Debian to a partition (via CD), a total reinstallation of OS X is necessary. Same with a network install.

Get ready for a Yaboot adventure...... There's a way to do this no matter where the partition is located. I'll look into it.

On a PC, they say the limit is 6 operating systems, but when I was writing Linux articles for extremetech.com, I and Masnick managed to install many more than that. I had 12 completely bootable Linux distros installed using a combo of Grub and a chain booting method I invented.

I'll have to look into the available boot managers for the mac and see what's up. The only reason I finally bought a Mac was because of OS X (unix), Fink, which I consider to be a real jewel of of a project, and the iBook which is without doubt the best little portable I've ever owned. A winning combo....

Really though, Fink compares very nicely to Debian in many ways..., and if you're a bit patient, FreeBSD ports will fill the gaps when more come out. I must admit though, the Debian portable smokes.

Another good one is Gentoo Linux which can be had with a net install. The compilation is tedious, albeit exact, and requires the user's presence for eight of 12 hours of installation..... I did that one to for a friend.

Here are some links:::::::

http://people.debian.org/~branden/ibook.html

http://debian-imac.sourceforge.net/

http://penguinppc.org/projects/

http://penguinppc.org/projects/yaboo...t-howto.shtml/

More Links
 

Oh! Sorry for not getting back sooner. I've got Genome data coming out of my ears and I get lost in that universe sometimes.

http://www.wrietman.com/ibook/index.html?debian

1. Which commands can I use?

h = help
p = print the partition table
P = (print ordered by base address)
i = initialize partition map
s = change size of partition map
c = create new partition (standard MkLinux type)
C = (create with type also specified)
n = (re)name a partition
d = delete a partition
r = reorder partition entry in map
w = write the partition table
q = quit editing (don't save changes)
? = help

2. What does a partition map look like?

Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/hda'

#: type name length base ( size )
1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
2: Apple_Driver43*Macintosh 54 @ 64
3: Apple_Driver43*Macintosh 74 @ 118
4: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 54 @ 192
5: Apple_Driver_ATA Macintosh 74 @ 246
6: Apple_Driver_IOKit Macintosh 512 @ 320
7: Apple_Patches Patch Partition 512 @ 832
8: Apple_HFS MacOS 1982464 @ 1344 (968.0M)
9: Apple_HFS Bootstrap 65536 @ 1983808 ( 32.0M)
10: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 swap 131072 @ 2049344 ( 64.0M)
11: Apple_UNIX_SVR2 root 4177030 @ 2180416 ( 2.0G)

Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=6357455 (3.0G)


3. How do I create such a nice partition map?

When creating the MacOs partition you will see that Macos creates 8 partitions. The first seven partitions are used for device drivers and patches while the eighth partition is used by MacOs itself. In my case, the ninth partition is the boot partition. You can choose to make partitions with pdisk during the installation of Linux on your iBook or, when running linux, by typing "pdisk /dev/hda". Now type a "p" to look at your partition map. You can add the swap partition by typing a "c" at the prompt. You will be asked to give in the base of your partition. Fill in the base of the "Apple free" partition (probably partition 10). Next you will be asked to give in the size of your partition. If you for instance want to make your swap partition 64 Mb, type in "64m". After that you'll be asked to give in the partition name. Be sure to type "swap" at the prompt! If you look at your partition map again (option "p") you will see your new made partition. You can create the root partition in the same way. Take the base and the size of the "Apple free" partition (most likely partition 11) and name this partition "root". Take a look at your partition map again (option "p") to check if everything went all right. Finally, when you are satisfied with the partition map, you can save it with option "w". After a reboot you will be able to use the new partition map.

http://www.ibooklinux.net/

Glanz, thanks for the reply. BTW, one of my links in my previous post wasn't correct as I found out later. But it's fixed now. It's the one with the instructions for Debian/GNU linux for PowerPC.

Yes, I gathered that one usually installs the whole enchilada from CD. But that link suggests other means which is what brought me here to all this. And I did read about some yaboot adventures too. And they seemed even stranger to me at the time.

It does look like, eventually, it may get ported to Mac OS X. I can be patient. This isn't something that I have to do. I was just pondering the whole of it since you mentioned how fast it was. And searches on these forums yielded very little info except for those who sort of said it wasn't possible.

No problem about not getting back. I thought you might have missed it or were just too busy, which of course, I would understand.

I meant the FreeBSD ports project for OS X with X11/XFree which is fairly new. I myself have installed quite a few FreeBSD and MIT apps on my iBook. The trick is to NOT let it interfere with the Fink install. I'll get to that later if you'd like.

No thanks necessary.... This is a real pleasure. I love this!:):):):)

OIC. Maybe those would be available through fink soon and thereby not interfere with fink? Perhaps wishful thinking on my part.

I see you've included a bunch more info to your previous post via edit. I'll be checking that now. Oh, and I'm on a G4 desktop. Hope it doesn't make too much of a difference versus the iBook. Looks like some really helpful info at first glance. As I said before, I'm intrigued.

OK... the next time I edit this post, I'll have a link more specific to your hardware.....but the same ol' applies at the base........ the only difference is the identification of the vid cards, modems etc.

"Intrigued" really means that you have become a hopeless geek like me. It's like putting on weight... kinda sneaks up on ya.... :)

Okay, I've read everything on all the links pertinent to me and my setup. But I am still wondering about the very beginning, the partition scheme.

I have never partitioned a drive with more than one file system type. Is it even possible? I mean, can I have my HFS+ partitions and regular HFS partitions all on the same drive? Does Disk Utility in Mac OS X allow that? Because if it didn't, then I couldn't feasibly do this since my current clones would be HFS+. And I can't afford to lose what I have to a clean install.

I was hoping to clone back to the newly partitioned drive that has my same partitions for HFS+, one placeholder partition in HFS and some free space to use for HFS linux partitions. I would do the cloning with psync which is my favorite backup method as well.

If I can do the aforementioned, then I would just need the time, about three hours since I've never done it before, and the proper ID's for the V-cards and modems, etc...

Yup. You're probably right about that. And although I do try and keep fit by playing a lot of tennis, the colder weather of winter coupled with all the good holiday treats can put me slightly towards the rotund. :)

I think I have the answer to my last post. All I would need to do is partition for HFS+ and then when I install Debian and use it's partitioning tool, that is how to change the free space into regular HFS from HFS+.

I don't know if Disk Utility would do this but I know that people have installed Debian on top of Mac OS X in new world boxes. And I don't think they would have had to partition the entire drive into HFS only to do so.

Do I sound confused? Maybe I'm just trippin' down some cyber trail or some such. Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

Why not UFS?
 

Like thatch, I have played with the thought of installing debian (on an expansion bay drive for my pismo), primarily for the fun of it?:D But, being a unix newbie. I was somewhat scared off by the seeming complexity, what with the nomenclature for different patition slices and all...(After all, sometimes I have real work to do as well;)).
But I have tried, using Disk Utilty to format a drive into HFS+, HFS and free space partitions, so that is possible. (That was OS 9.2.2. I couldn't get the Debian CD to mount from my firewire drive, and didn't want to install on my main drive, so in the end I gave it up. At the time I'm not sure netinstall was an option.)
But why wouldn't one choose UFS for the partition that Debian gets installed onto? Is it something about sharing files across the file systems?

tjj, thanks for the reply. So, to be absolutely clear about this; you were able to make HFS+ and HFS partitions together on the same drive with Disk Utility under Mac OS X? Because you said just after that, "That was OS 9.2.2.".

The reason that UFS can't be used is:

GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions.

Sorry, but I'm quite sure it was 9.2.2. I came so far as to actually format the drive into at least 1 hfs+, 1 hfs + 1 'free space'. I have not tried after moving to osX, but I belive that creating hfs AND hfs+ partitions on the same drive is perfectly allowed with Disk Utility. If you like, I can soon (I hope!) test this as I'm expecting replacements of two! recent drive failures. But that's the minor part of the issue I think;) But then again, if you're serious about installing debian you probably have the spare drive to test this easily for yourself. If you go ahead with debian, please post as to your succes and good luck!
Thanks for reminding me the reason for not UFS, I thought it had some advantages over hfs that unix/linux could exploit (defragmentation issues).

tjj, no need to be sorry. I appreciate the info on your experience because I only have my main drive and my external backup drive, both of which I don't want to muck up by testing any partitioning schemes. But it makes me think that since you could do this in OS 9, then it should also be possible in OS X.

And yes, you were right about the file sharing issue across different file systems. Perhaps I should have included the entire paragraph around the sentence that I referenced:

GNU/Linux is unable to access information on HFS+ (aka MacOS Extended) or UFS partitions. OS X requires one of these two types for its boot partition. MacOS 9 can be installed on either HFS (aka MacOS Standard) or HFS+. To share information between the MacOS and GNU/Linux systems, an exchange partition is handy. HFS and MS-DOS FAT partitions are supported by both MacOS and Linux.

thatch, thank you.
Does that mean you have have an extra partition (hfs) just for file exchange, or will osX - run from an hfs+ partition be able to access files on the debian partition (hfs)?

Just a note: Linux can't read HFS+

A note on the boot partition:::

The bootstrap partition only takes 800k of space. If you are adding a bootstrap partition to your existing setup, you may have enough free space on your existing drive without changing other partitions. If not, you could avoid re-partitioning the entire disk by stealing a little space from your swap partition. Or parted would allow you to resize partitions.

The bootstrap partition should end up being partition #2, after the partition map itself but before any other partitions on the disk. You can easily change the order of the partitions in the partition map using the r command (see the mac-fdisk tutorial). In other words, it's not the physical placement of the bootstrap partition that counts, it's the logical order within the partition map. Note, though, if you have an existing system and you shift the partition numbers around, you will need to make the appropriate changes in /etc/fstab.

The reason you want the bootstrap partition as partition #2, is so that it precedes all other partitions in the boot sequence. This helps tremendously to make the entire system more stable, since some OS's are very intrusive in their use of partitions.

When you're finished partitioning, use the p command and make note of the final partition numbers. You will need to know the partition number for the bootstrap partition, the location of your kernel, and if you intend to set up yaboot for multiple OS booting, partition numbers for your alternate OS's.

While it's possible to install yaboot on a mountable HFS /boot partition, that configuration is deprecated, discouraged and completely unsupported.

################

For initial installation on a machine, you can use yabootconfig to first create a yaboot.conf file and then install everything on your bootstrap partition. Yabootconfig reads the running system's /etc/fstab to determine the kernel location, and detects the location of the 800k Apple_Bootstrap partition. The Debian installer uses yabootconfig behind the scenes in the Make Hard Disk Bootable step.

Normally, the initial boot configuration is created while in a ramdisk installer environment, with the system being installed being mounted under /target or /mnt. To run yabootconfig under these conditions, supply the path to the target system with -t or --chroot option. For example: yabootconfig --chroot /target

The yaboot.conf automatically created by yabootconfig will just control booting of the linux system under which it was created. To boot additional OS's or add other options, you will need to edit the yaboot.conf file.
################

OVERVIEW

Overview of the Installation Process

Here's a road map for the steps you will take during the installation process.

1. Create partition-able space for Debian on your hard disk

2. Locate and/or download kernel and driver files (except Debian CD users)

3. Set up boot floppies or place boot files (except most Debian CD users can boot from one of the CDs)

4. Boot the installation system

5. Configure the keyboard

6. Create and mount Debian partitions

7. Point the installer to the location of the kernel and drivers

8. Select which peripheral drivers to load

9. Configure the network interface

10. Initiate automatic download/install/setup of the base system

11. Configure Linux or multi-system boot loading

12. Boot the newly installed system and do some final configuration

13. Install additional tasks and packages, at your discretion

The following is a must read::
http://www.debian.org/releases/stabl...ioning.en.html

/etc/fstab??
 

Thanks Glanz,
This is getting a bit too deep for me, I think. I have 3 fstab files in /etc, surnamed .hd, .rd and .sd. All of them are commented out:There was an old thread here regarding the same issue: ol' thread

If I do a df I get:
I guess that disk0 is my boot device with system located at slice 9. Then the previous 8 ones are probably Apple's property. But I can't see how to fool around with the fstab file or files...

Re: /etc/fstab??
 

Yes, this is getting deep..... There is much danger here dontchaknow. :) As far as the bootsector as defined by yaboot being the second on the list...., it's just that and only that.. -a list. In a way, that is. The "listing" takes place during the Deb install. Now, I wouldn't try this right now. I will try to put together some clear, concise, readable instructions, not primarily written in geekspeak. The reason for this is that I have noticed that many instructions are a bit outdated.
Personally, I would not want to place Debian alongside a OSX on my iBook because this will require a reinstall of OS X, which in turn means a reinstallation of all those OS X upgrades from Apple, and I would have to give up my Precious Fink installation that was compiled from source (this iBook really had a work-out compiling all that)....... Of course with a Deb install, I wouldn't need Fink, but then again, with a Debian install, I wouldn't need OS X either.

Like I said earlier, I use two iBooks, one being mine with an OS X with Fink install, and another at work that belongs to the University with Debian only. I hesitate to do this to my iBook, because as I stated, that Fink install, finely tuned, wasn't a minor task, considering all the time that the compilation took. If I has Debian on my personal iBook, this would be pretty much the same thing... same applications, etc. (I don't use KDE on either)... The only advantage WAS the scientific apps on the Debian machine, but all those apps are now available for straight OS X or for X11 with or without Fink.

I like Fink a lot.
I like Debian a lot.
I even like OS X a lot.
So all in all, I believe I'll stick with OS X and Fink.
I have a Debian PC to satisfy my Debian needs (or should I say obsession).

Here is my opinion on this: I have partitioned many a hard drive and have at my disposal five Linux distributions via PCs. But I have one I reserved for Debian only. Why? Although it works quite well, mutiple operating systems on a single hard drive require a lot of babysitting.

As for my Apple machines, I prefer NOT to partition for other operating systems. For databases and safe storage, it's OK, but I am not convinced there would be a technical advantage to having mutiple OS's on an Apple machine. However, it can be fun playing around with all that.

Now for some hard realism: somewhere along the way, mistakes will be made, if not at the time of initial installations, then later when new Linux kernels are issued that may or may not affect the boot sector involved in updates. There may be a disk repair necessary some time in the future because of file corruption on the OS X side of things. Another partition and a non-Mac boot sector won't help in that process..., that's for sure.

I, of course, am referring to my portables, but if I had a big ol' powerful, smokin' n' chokin' G4, I might be tempted to play around a bit.

Re: Re: /etc/fstab??
 

That would be very nice, thank you!
Your points are well taken. I have all my "real" needs (computing needs, that is) covered by OS X, fink is primarily for fun and curiosity. And this Debian thing will, for my part, exclusively be for the pleasure of doing obscure things to an innocent, unsuspecting, older powerbook late a night.
I was considering reserving a drive in a bay drive expansion module to this, as I wouldn't dream of (well.....:D, dream on) doing this on my primary drive.

Re: Re: Re: /etc/fstab??
 

If that old Powerbook is a secondary and not a primary machine, and if it has a REAL MODEM, not one of those imitation winmodem-type controller-FULL modems, but a REAL hardware modem, that Powerbook looks like a candidate for a full Debian install. Muuuuhahahahahaha:D

hehehe It IS my primary machine, and as two Travelstar drive's just failed on me within weeks, I'm running off my firewire back-up. So presently. I don't install anything . Actually, I'm afraid to even touch the keyboard for fear of hte firewire dying on me as well -knock on wood.

But that's why I would want Debian (if I do..., I might not..., but then again, could be fun) on a dedicated removable drive. So I could just swap in the expansion drive, "click" and I'd be running debian (after a reboot, IknowIknow), and rip it out, "click" back into OS X..:cool:

You'll be able to knock on "Woody" :)
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/

http://images.freshmeat.net/screenshots/25284_thumb.jpg

Boy, you miss a day around here and it's like a whole world of information has passed you by. Some very interesting points have been brought up. Now I'm thinking that the best way for me to experience Debian would be to buy another hard drive and install it as the slave in my G4, dedicate it entirely to Debian and never look back at multi-boot system wackiness like all this again.

OTOH, as stated on the Debian GNU/Linux PowerPC PowerMac Page; Shortly, you may also have the option of running Debian within a Darwin system.

Wouldn't it be neat if you could get the whole enchilada through fink?

I also thought about my other old world macs but decided against that because it was the speed of the Debian OS that intrigued me the most. And an old PowerMac 7500/G3 500 or a Powerbook 3400/240 just wouldn't cut it now that I have the new world system.

Thanks to all who have helped me to decide all this and for providing all the great info. I am still intrigued about Debian and will remain open to the subject. But I'm not sure I want to plunk down the $ for the slave drive right now.

That would be wonderful!!!!!!! That would make me happier than my cat sleeping with his paws in the air next to the wood stove!

I'll give you a little example of what Debian can do. At work, someone had an old Compaq portable 1200 series with a three GB hard drive and 64 ram, 133. Not fast, and XP was simply out of the question for that clunker. I installed Debian on it... just Debian. It now runs faster than a new Thinkpad with XP. .... a real resurrection! The only modification was the addition of a card modem in the PC Card slot.

I have been using Debian since the very first available release..... Debian 0.91 in 1994. I was lucky enough have access through a University.

This is also why I have been diagnosed as having very strong Free Software tendencies, a predelection towards the word GNU, and gnalways tend towards community-based rather than strictly commercial projects. GNUdness GNUracious! .... Someone stop me before I write a book!

<<<<Wouldn't it be neat if you could get the whole enchilada through fink?>>>>>

Actually, that's just about what we have right now!

BTW & Post Scriptum: Don't forget to try out Gnome.... I notice that a few users of Fink did not know how to add items to the Gnome Menu System because Gnome requires "root access" to add stuff. The last thing you want to do is to log in as root to modify a Gnome menu. That may work in Linux but it is not recommended here. All you have to do is to open a terminal from within Gnome and type "sudo gmenu" and Voila...... there you have it. Gnome works really well on Fink. It is one million five-hunderd thousand three-hundred and sisty-four times faster than KDE. :)

ok, you asked for it!
Sounds like you might just want to write that book. Go ahead, I will read it!
Come to think of it, I have an (other) old powerbook, 3400; it's only used for some lightweight accounting and email (not by me). Why don't I just take it back and mess it up with Debian to see how it would perform?

I haven't tried out gnome yet. And when I pull up a 'fink list gnome', I get a lot of different packages in the list. Which ones and how many of them do I need? And are they available in binary and could be obtained with apt-get? Otherwise, from source and depending on how many packages are needed, it looks like it could take a while.

tjj, I'd be interested to hear how your old powerbook 3400 turns out with debian. Hey, if it's really fast as that example from Glanz and the compaq dinosaur, then I would give that some serious thought.

Okay, I found an old thread called, 'installing gnome', which was very long and somewhat side tracked a bit but still very good and informative. What I surmised from it is that:

1) It takes a really long time to do gnome from source but then you can update gnome as it progresses with new builds later on.

2) If you use apt-get, gnome will install relatively quickly but then you cannot update it to the latest builds.

3) Most folks seemed to like oroborus better than a full KDE or gnome installation possibly due to too many task bars and widgets or some such. Since I haven't used the full KDE or gnome or even oroborus, I'm not certain about those particulars.

thatch,
When I get the time a will definitely mess up the 3400, but it may take a while, though. Being, understatement: unexperienced in the Realm of Unix, I anticipate it may eat up a lot of time for me. I will get to it finally, though, and will be happy to post results of the adventure.
I'm sure The Book of Glanz will be out soon, or at the least his 'Debian onto PowerPC revisited' guidelines will be posted shortly.:)

tjj, that would be great. If it works out well for you then I may choose to do the same to my old 3400, that is if I can pry it away from my wife who has sort of taken it over as of late. BTW, how much ram does your's have? Mine has 48 MB.

I wish Glanz would come back and post some more of his valuable knowledge on this and many other subjects. He can be very inspiring with his positive energy.

thatch, your wife must be like mine. She has gotten quite proprietary with the 3400:)
Ram? Has it got ram? hehe
80Mb!!

As i said, it may be a while before I get to it, as I'm still recovering from two drive failures on my primary Pismo. I'm getting pretty much behind with real work, so coupla months is best guess (well, maybe shorter).
Do go ahead if you can wrestle it away from your wife:D And - Good luck!

I'd like to see what Glanz will come up with, though.

Please don't ever accuse me of being positive!!!!!! :D

Here's some info, and please note that the 3400 is on the list.

I installed Debian on an old grey Toshiba portable yesterday for a friend. .. [1GB hard disk 32 RAM] It works fine. Not only that it smokes!!!

There are four major supported powerpc flavors: PMac (Power-Macintosh), Apus, CHRP and PReP machines. Ports to other powerpc architectures, such as the Be-Box and MBX architecture, are underway but not yet supported by Debian. We may have a 64bit port (Power3) in the future.

Apple (and briefly a few other manufacturers - Power Computing, for example) makes a series of Macintosh computers based on the PowerPC processor. For purposes of architecture support, they are categorized as Nubus, OldWorld PCI, and NewWorld.

Nubus systems are not currently supported by debian/powerpc. The monolithic Linux/PPC kernel architecture does not have support for these machines; instead, one must use the MkLinux Mach microkernel, which Debian does not yet support. These include the 6100/7100/8100 line of Power Macintoshes.

OldWorld systems are most Power Macintoshes with a floppy drive and a PCI bus. Most 603, 603e, 604, and 604e based Power Macintoshes are OldWorld machines. The beige colored G3 systems are also OldWorld.

The so called NewWorld PowerMacs are any PowerMacs in translucent colored plastic cases. The NewWorld PowerMacs are also known for using the `ROM in RAM' system for MacOS, and were manufactured from mid-1998 onwards.

Here is a list of powerpc machines which should work with Debian.
Model Name/Number Architecture
Apple
iMac Bondi Blue, 5 Flavors, Slot Loading powermac-NewWorld
iMac Summer 2000, Early 2001 powermac-NewWorld
iBook, iBook SE, iBook Dual USB powermac-NewWorld
iBook2 powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh Blue and White (B&W) G3 powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 PCI, AGP, Cube powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 Gigabit Ethernet powermac-NewWorld
Power Macintosh G4 Digital Audio, Quicksilver powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G3 FireWire Pismo (2000) powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G3 Lombard (1999) powermac-NewWorld
PowerBook G4 Titanium powermac-NewWorld
Performa 4400, 54xx, 5500 powermac-OldWorld
Performa 6300, 6360, 6400, 6500 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 4400, 5400 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 7200, 7300, 7500, 7600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 8200, 8500, 8600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh 9500, 9600 powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh (Beige) G3 Minitower powermac-OldWorld
Power Macintosh (Beige) Desktop, All-in-One powermac-OldWorld
PowerBook 2400, 3400, 3500 powermac-OldWorld
PowerBook G3 Wallstreet (1998) powermac-OldWorld
Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh powermac-OldWorld
Workgroup Server 7250, 8550, 9650, G3 powermac-OldWorld
Power Computing
PowerBase, PowerTower / Pro, PowerWave powermac-OldWorld
PowerCenter / Pro, PowerCurve powermac-OldWorld
UMAX
C500, C600, J700, S900 powermac-OldWorld
APS
APS Tech M*Power 604e/2000 powermac-OldWorld
Motorola
Starmax 3000, 4000, 5000, 5500 powermac-OldWorld
Firepower, PowerStack Series E, PowerStack II PReP
MPC 7xx, 8xx PReP
MTX, MTX+ PReP
MVME2300(SC)/24xx/26xx/27xx/36xx/46xx PReP
MCP(N)750 PReP
IBM RS/6000
40P, 43P PReP
Power 830/850/860 (6070, 6050) PReP
6015, 6030, 7025, 7043 PReP
p640 PReP
Amiga Power-UP Systems (APUS)
A1200, A3000, A4000 APUS

Here is a list of machines which are not known to work with Debian. They may well work, and we'd like to hear if you test one and have some success.
Model Name/Number Architecture
IBM Longtrail II, First 'free' or 'open' PowerPC Board CHRP
7248-100,7248-120,7248-132 PReP

One way to find out if Debian can be installed, and to learn a few tricks too, is to check the NetBSD info on Mac installations here http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/models.html In general, if it will fly on NetBSD, it will fly on Debian, but the opposite is not necessarily true. Debian seems to go on just about anything too.

Here's an interesting link
http://www.rapierbit.org/linux/partition.html#link1
for "oldies"....... [install/partition with OS9]

"lowendmac" link
 

http://www.lowendmac.com/unix/02/0319.html

for instaling Debian::an excerpt... there's much more... with some good links...

<<<<<My efforts to get Debian Linux running on my trusty old box ran into one final wrinkle -- the Linux kernel that came on my CD is an older version (2.2.10) which does not support the SE/30. The Linux kernel is the very core of the operating system, and if it won't work on your Mac, your Linux adventures will grind to a halt. On the official CD-ROM, the kernel you'll be using lives in the :install:mac folder in a file simply titled "linux".

The solution to this problem -- as documented in the aforementioned SE/30 Debian Install guide -- is to copy much of this :install:mac folder to your hard disk's Mac OS partition. Once there, you can download a newer kernel (version 2.2.19) from the address given in the guide and add it to your copy of the folder in place of the original linux file.

When it comes to working out what kernel version your machine needs, you may have to look around for the information. There may be something floating around on the net telling at what version support for the various Mac models was added to the kernel, but if it exists, I don't know where. Once again, the key seems to be experimentation. Try initialising the installation process using the kernel from the CD and see what happens. You'll know if the kernel proves incompatible with your machine as the Mac will almost certainly lock solid as soon as the Penguin loader tries boot up your Linux session.

Even if the kernel you have is compatible with your Mac, it might be a good idea to grab a newer one anyway as the stability and feature set of the kernel improves with each new release. If you do take this approach however, bear in mind that your Mac OS partition must be large enough to accommodate these extra files.>>>>

More old stuff ......SE/30 Debian install Potato, Kernel 2.2.19, Penguin 17 Oldie
 

SE/30 Debian install Potato, Kernel 2.2.19, Penguin 17


Audience: beginner's, newbies, MacOS users uninitate in the ways of linux
the curious.

http://www.geocities.com/wcrowshaw.g...to_install.txt

Better make a copy of that because I don't know how long it will be there...... Here's part of it... (about one tenth of the complete text)...

<<<Stage 1)

Overview: what you need to do on your Mac to install Debian Linux.


1) Partition Hard drive.
In this step, you will partition your hard drive so that you will have a partition
reserved for the MacOS which you will need to boot into Linux and partitions (or partitions)
for linux to use.

This can be done in several different ways using several different applications.
On the MacOS you can use "Apple HD SC Setup" application or FWB's hard disk software
called "Hard Disk Toolkit PE". On the linux OS, you can use a program called "pmac-fdisk"
which is accessible on the Debian Linux installer.

For many reasons, I chose Apple's "Apple HD SC Setup." To use this application for
partition, you need to obtain version 7.3.5. This version of Apple HD SC Setup will
allow you to create partitions that linux can immediately use. You can obtain the
program here: ftp://ftphqx.info.apple.com/Apple_Su...7.3.5.sea.hqx.
If you computer has a non-Apple hard drive, you will not be able to partition your
hard drive with version 7.3.5 in its current form. It does not recognize non-Apple hard drive.
You will instead need to obtain a patched version of Apple HD SC Setup available here:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/patch.html. You can also patch the program quite
easily yourself using ResEdit. Instructions can be also found at: http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/patch.html

To use use this partitioning software, you will need
to be able to boot into the MacOS using a disk other than the one you are currently
running the MacOS, or the one using the System Folder as its system. This is true
for any partitioning software. They will not partition a hard drive which is running
the System Software. You must instead use another drive or boot floppy.

For my partionting, I choose to use Apple's Apple HD SC Setup (actually, in conjunction
with "pmac-fdisk" to utilize every byte of my Hard drive.) To use this program,
I create a boot floppy which the HD SC Setup on it. The creation is quite easy.
Make a copy of your 7.0.1 "Disk Tools" disk and replace the current 7.0.1 version
of HD SC Setup with the 7.3.5 version (patched version if necessary). You can
now use this boot floppy by inserting immediately upon startup. Your Mac will
recognize that it has a System Folder which it can use as the current operating
system.

Once booted, you can now use HD SC Setup to partition your Mac hard drive.
<detail instruction can be inserted here>.

For my SE which has a 350MB non-Apple Hard drive I chose to create three partitions:
one for the MacOS and 2 for Linux. I reserved 7.3MBs for the MacOS. This amount
takes into consideration the fact that you also need to place files related to
you Linux installer on your MacOS as well as the MacOS system itself. In addition,
I created 2 partition for linux of size 27MBs which will be used by Linux for what is
called the "swap" partition. In addition, I create ad 323MB partition upon which
linux will be installed.

<insert an explanation of various partitioning schemes here>

For your purpose, all that you should know is that your swap partition should
be at least twice the side of your machines current RAM and no these that 25MBS.
My maching has 8MBS of RAM (I don't think you can installed Linux with
anything less), and I chose a swap of 27MBS.

To partition your hard drive, you will need to hit the custom button of HD SC Setup.
You will need to delete or "remove" all your partitions except the partition
reserved for the Mac Driver which is neccessary to use the CD.

Then, I first created an MacOS partion and chose Apple_HFS as its type. Second,
I created the smaller swap partition and made it a "A/UX Swap slice 1". I then
created the final partition and made it a "Apple_UNIX_SVR2" partition. It is also
called a root/usr partition.>>>

Excellent!
 

Glanz,

Okay, I won't accuse you of being positive then. But I'm glad you accept the inspiring part. :)

Thanks for posting all that excellent info. I had read some of it in my recent investigations of the multi-boot system and you furnished a lot of other things I haven't seen too.

So, I see it's not only possible to install Debian on my old 3400 with low ram. But it might even make it sing compared to it's present speed which is way slow. Now I'm thinking that I should just go for it on my 7500 since it is reasonably fast, 500 Mghz, and then my wife can continue to use the power book without learning a new OS. :D

Having said that, about the 7500, it's got low ram as well, only 64 MB. But with Debian that doesn't seem as it would be bad. Of course, I'd want to back everything up on it just in case I ever want to have it back the old way. But I have a feeling I may not once I get it Debianized.

You've given me a lot to think about here. I will begin this as soon as I know I have the time. Unfortunately, most of my time towards my computer (fun) learning is rather piecemeal. And I don't want to be interrupted during this venture. It probably wouldn't be an interruptable kind of thing or I'd screw it up too.

I may have more questions for you once I get into this. I hope you don't mind me bugging you for some of them.

And that reminds me, in another thread called, "mounting debian linux server drive under OSX", I was wondering if you might have the answer with your experience. Would you mind having a look at it? TIA

tjj,

Wow! If your old PB has 80 MB ram, you should be able to really enjoy it with Debian, when you have time of course. I'll keep you posted on my adventures with this.

yes! Thank you Glanz, though not for making me itch to try this! I better lock it up somewhere!

thatch, looking forward to read about your experience.

The Debian installer is what some mistakenly call a "text-based" installer... It really isn't in the strict sense of the word. It is a "semi'GUI" keyboard-based installer. Now, once Debian has been installed, it works on APT, dpkg, etc, just like Fink. It's a dream.... Never will you have dependency problems. The Debian team is the geekiest team of developers in existence and are scattered all around the world. The original Linux pioneers are associated with Debian. Linus uses Debian, and here's a list of a few others that do also: http://www.debian.org/users/

The Debian installer can be a bear for someone who has been used to the "drag n' drop" method of doing things. It isn't screwed up like the BSD installers though.... now they really suk big time.

The Deb team is working on a totally graphic GUI as installer, but it will take time. When asked why, when the APT tools of Debian were so great and the Distro itself was so free of glitches and disappointments, the installer was rather "geekish" still, the Debian team responded; "Because you only need the installer once"... In fact they are right. One of my machines has had Debian for five years now and I only used the installer once... yet the distro is totally up to date. I have managed to do kernel upgrades and all without a reinstall.

One thing you'll notice about Debian is that all the apps work as they should..... all of them. And there are thousands..... But on a low end machine, I recommend keeping it simple, like using Windowmaker, Blackbox, Xfce, and possibly Gnome as WMs. Install Mozilla, just to have the pleasure of using the Galeon web browser that happens to be the fastest, most configurable browser in existence.

When I installed the other day on that old Toshiba, I kept things down to a 400-500 MB install..for a 1GB drive.. The fact is that a 30 MB install will also work. 60 is a sweet spot. 400 is an ideal fast distro with everything including the kitchen sink, minus servers.....

I recommend that you print out all the relevant material concerning the installation on your particular machine before starting. You'll also need all the hardware specs. Maake sure the installation plan is clearly installed in your head before transfering to a hard disk :)......

Just a personal note....
 

Thatch once mentioned that maybe Debian will be available someday, much as OpenDarwin apps are for installation to a "Debian" directory, or something like that, much as Fink to an "/sw" directory. This is not so crazy an idea. The only probs now concern the file system compatability.

I'll give you a few examples. NetBSD can install on virtually any hardware. Debian also. So those who have stated in articles, defending Intel, that Linux etc is for the PC, are frankly full of bullpucky. Debian works as fast and as well on Mac hardware as it does on an ugly PC tower that looks more like a coffin for a pet cat than a computer. In other words, Debian and the BSDs, particularly NetBSD, aren't at all "prejudiced" concerning machinery. Only Intel integrists and Monopolo$$$oft fanatics are.

So, what I want to say is that since Apple came out with OS X, and started also supporting the Open Source Community [a little bit]..... , they not only have proven that their machines are really good, in spite of the "speed myth" propagated by Intel, but combinations of OS X with apps and/or "layers" of other Unix-type systems, will really threaten TellyTubby$oft's totaltarian hold on the industry's pocketbook.

I think I have some cd's with potato for ppc on somewhere, so if I could "just" get that to work, then opgrade will be a walk in the park (in comparison)?
Yeah, right!

Thanks for all those links!

The Mother of all Debian PPC Links
 

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/install

<<<I think I have some cd's with potato for ppc on somewhere, so if I could "just" get that to work, then opgrade will be a walk in the park (in comparison)?
>>>

Be careful!!!! Potato is no longer supported for the ppc, I believe.......... not sure...

Another way would be to go to an internet cafe that would let you burn a base CD for a minimum install.

Here's the Danish site

http://www.dk.debian.org/index.da.html

Here's the plain text manual in Danish for a ppc installation
http://www.dk.debian.org/releases/st...install.da.txt

Here'a the HTML Danish manual
http://www.dk.debian.org/releases/st...nstall.da.html

Here's the Danish PDF
http://www.dk.debian.org/releases/st...install.da.pdf

My 7500 has two hard drives, both are about 1 Gig each, master and slave. I suppose I could just install Debian on the slave and not even touch the master with it's OS 8.6?

I have my 7500 networked to my G4 and within arms length. So, I could just have all the relevant materials available without printing them, plus any other internet resources I may need right in front of me. As far as the hardware specs; couldn't I get them by simply printing out an Apple System Profile? Also, since I have never done this before, the plan in my head isn't real clear as of yet. Last night, I downloaded the ISO image of the binary-i386-1 to burn to a CD-RW. Would that be the correct installation for me?

Oh, forgot to mention that the 7500 is a SCSI machine and has a couple of extra cards installed, one for video ram at 8 MB, the other an extra NIC.

i386 is strictly for INTEL architecture... you need the PPC for your type of system, whatever that is.... I don't know because this iBook is the first Mac I've ever owned.


This is for all of you:::
Debian PowerPC port was first officially released with Debian GNU/Linux 2.2 (`potato'). Support for PowerPC is maintained in the release 3.0 (`woody'). Please see the release notes http://www.debian.org/releases/stabl...release-notes/ and installation manual for more information.

When upgrading from Potato to Woody or changing kernels, there is some important information http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/keycodes you should be aware of regarding a change in keyboard coding. This could save you some time and headaches!

And check this page>> http://www.debian.org/ports/index
and
http://www.debian.org/distrib/

So it would appear by its name. And I thought this too at first. But on the faq page for downloading, it lists:I interpreted that to mean that the first CD would work for other architectures. And this was the only download I could find at all and was referenced from the PowerPC pages.

I guess that's it....... At work, I did a network install....... I'll check that now to see whaaSSSSSsssUP with that......... to see if we're doin' the same thingy* here.

Be back...

*thingy= catch-all tech term to hide or to reveal the incompetence, Inability; insufficiency; inadequacy; disqualification;
incapability; unfitness.... of the user of the term.... [Glanz's Universal Dictionary of Whatchamacallits]

Kernel Skinny
 

OK..., here's where I got my PPC kernel

ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/ports/ppc

I did not follow the same procedure as I would have for a PC portable. I networked to configure for a local network install at the university. I "kerneled" first, then went and loaded the Debian ppc tree.... I have no idea where I got that now.... I am not at work at present. I'll look that up tomorrow.

nb: Patches are only available from the linuxppc_2_4 tree.

Maybe I'm way off in my interpretations. But I'm having the darndess time finding the installer for old world powerpc's. Perhaps there isn't one for an ISO image to CD. I can't find where it says that though. I found that there are some choices of BootX, miboot and quik; whatever they are? Further investigation says they are to put in your system folder where you also put a kernel. I'm confused. I would like to have the whole installer on one CD or several floppies. Or a net install would be fine too. Can you tell me where to get that if it is even available for old world macs? I have a feeling it's not though. At least I can't find one. Hmmm.

Diskless installation, using network booting from a local area network and NFS-mounting of all local filesystems, is another option — you'll probably need at least 16MB of RAM for a diskless installation. After the operating system kernel is installed, you can install the rest of your system via any sort of network connection (including PPP after installation of the base system), via FTP, HTTP, or NFS.

here>>>
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd/
and/or here>>>
http://people.debian.org/~ieure/netinst/
and/or here for boot floppy inst>>
http://people.debian.org/~dwhedon/boot-floppies/
here too>>>
http://people.debian.org/~blade/boot-floppies/cvs/
Here's an XFS netinst image>>>
http://people.debian.org/~blade/XFS-Install/download/

Here's the Woody PowerPC-1 ISO
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd...-powerpc-1.iso
Here's the pkg list needed for install
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd...rpc-1.packages
Here's the raw 186M download
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd...-powerpc-1.raw
Here's the SRC iso if you want source (I don't think you do)
And finally here's the raw source which you don't want either, but maybe somepne does
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd/woody-src-1.raw
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd/woody-src-1.iso

Glanz, thanks for taking such trouble; it is much appreciated.
I take it woody is the way to go.
BTW, I'm preferring the english version (us), as I hate the mixup of different language files. (Was worse in pre-X days, but I stick with the international edition).

<<Here's the Woody PowerPC-1 ISO
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-c...y-powerpc-1.iso
Here's the pkg list needed for install
http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-c...erpc-1.packages>>

As far as I've understood, any installation of deb requires a mac partition. Would it be possible to run the installer off W-PPC-1 ISO. It would be easy to download the image and burn it, question is if it will run from the expansion bay CD-drive.
I could install from net as well, having access to high speed at work.

I, personally have always installed from network. I seldom get a Installation I made myself CD to work right. I installed the first edition of FreeBSD from a network tape drive once. [That gives you an idea of how old I am].... Here's the site to check for the info I just gave and much more than I had time to give...
http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/

Now don't forget to cram. Study. Make sure of what you are doing. Do some research so that everything becomes clear in your imagination. Note that I didn't say "mind".... That will come later after all the mistakes you will make, that is, unless of course, you happen to have one helluva geek guardian angel lookin' after you. :)

As for the little bit of help I provided; it was a pleasure. :D

Glanz, thanks for all the info and your time here. I'm still not certain that woody is the one for my old rig though. I could just download it and try it. Or maybe I should just post to the mailing list over there at Debian and wait for someone to tell me which one exactly. So, I'm still a bit confused about all that. There are so many links and resources. But they don't tell me exactly which one is the one for me. :confused:

Yes, it is confusing! I am sure that Woody is the way to go......... but I'd check out those boards too...

Look, I've installed Woody on a Toshiba portable that was more than five years old.....

Glanz, okay, woody it is then. I was just about to burn a potato CD too. I'll keep the image around just in case.

Rember all, that in those "TREES" there are little tarred-n'-feathered birdies called "ReadMe" and "Install"..... To hear their song, you must untar the poor little creatures.

thatch, you may want this one, if you haven't got it already:
goget'em
I think the non-us contains gpg and other 'security-related'

I did all this a bit differently than youZZZe GuyZe..

I compiled a kernel.

- Get the Debian source for 2.4.10
- Get and apply the PPC patch
- Get and apply the XFS patch while we're patching

Now try your normal kernel building techniques.

Like that.

<<So, it pays to get the source from the PowerPC kernel developers themselves. If you're using a newer PowerMac (e.g. the iBook2) then right now this is a must. Fortunately, it's quite easy to obtain.



If you have rsync installed, then you can obtain the latest versions of the benh development version of the kernel source by running the following command:


rsync -arvz --delete rsync.penguinppc.org::linux-2.4-benh [directory]


where [directory] is the name of the directory you would like the source to be downloaded into. (See the the rsync man page for more info.)>>

But here's the real skinny....

Get the latest kernels using rsync. I suggest the benh tree...

type in this command to get the latest kernels:

rsync -avz --delete source.mvista.com::linux-2.4-benh

This will download the source into the destination_path directory. Note that these kernels are specifically tuned by clued people so that they compile nicely on PPC (PowerMacs).

Good luck all!!!!!

"Normal"?
Well, i guess there's gotta be a first time for everything:p
It sure looks more elegant..But, someone ignorant as myself, may have to cross this debian river many times for a drop of water

So, I use rsync for my automated backups in OS X, but can it direct the download onto the pb3400 connected to the G3 directly through a cross-over ethernet cable?
-Guess I can find out by trying.

And that's just getting it down, nothing's configured yet!
It sure would be easier to have everything on a bootable cd.
Getting there must be part of the fun.:D

Sure you can direct, but you can also fetch the data via networking as if the data were an image.

<<Getting there must be part of the fun.:D >>

Yeah, like the peregrinations of Gautama Sidhartha!

That's why Debian users are so "faithful"... After the trip, they are too tired to return. They have to stay on top of the mountain, never to return to the marketplace with gift-bestowing hands.

Well guys, my progress report is just about nil. I have been busy with my usual day's work but also have been trying to get a CD which will mount on the 7500 in my spare time. I chose the woody_netinst-20020626-powerpc.iso to burn. Toast 5.2, no matter what options I used, will not do anything but copy the ISO file and it won't mount that way. I must have tried erasing and burning again with different options a half dozen times with no luck. I tried using Disk Copy which seems to have made the correct files appear in the CD. But it still won't mount on the 7500. I am using CD-RW media. The 7500 has OS 8.6. Since I rarely use the old bugger for much, I put in a music CD just to see if the drive was working. That mounted and played just fine. So, I'm at a standstill without any accomplishments. How frustrating that something so elementary isn't working.

I don't think it can boot directly off the cd, as neither can my pb3400. there has to be a mac partion for booting into debian (methinks).
From the manual

But, I'm a little confused. I'm not sure I'm up to building the kernel myself.

Well, sofar I'm backing up everything on the ol' thing (my wife's away:D )

Don't forget that an "OldWorldPPC" doesn't use yaboot..... it uses bootx or something like that...

When downloading files from a Debian mirror, be sure to download the files in binary mode, not text or automatic mode. It's important to replicate the directory structure you find on the mirror to create a local `sub-mirror'. It isn't really necessary to do this if you place all the installation files on floppies; but it still makes it easier to find the files when you need them. You should start your local directory structure at the level under disks-powerpc, for example:

current/subarchitecture/images-1.44/flavor/rescue.bin

You don't need to download every file under that level, just those that apply to you (you'll find out which ones apply as you read on). Just name the directories the same as the mirror's, and keep the files in their proper directories.

If your machine is set up to automatically decompress/decode files you download, you must turn that feature off when downloading the installation system files. They will be decompressed just-in-time by the installer. Decompressing in your current system will waste space and time, and if the original compressed archives are deleted by the decompression program, they won't be there later when the installer needs them. Also, many of the binary files such as yaboot will be automatically interpreted as text since they have no file extensions unless you specifically select binary transfer mode. These files will be unusable if they are transferred in text mode.

...and maybe these instructions will help a bit.

http://www.geocities.com/wcrowshaw.g...to_install.txt

Like I said earlier, I personally have never had any luck with making bootable CDs for either the Mac or the PC. That's why I always go for network installs..., sometimes using rawwrite floppies to direct the installation/downloading process when apropos.

##############################
##############################
Files you may need fall into three categories:

1. Files needed to boot into the installation system (for example, rescue.bin, linux.bin, and root.bin)

2. Files the installation system will need access to after it has been booted in order to install the operating system kernel and peripheral drivers (for example, rescue.bin and drivers.tgz)

3. Base system installation files (for example, basedebs.tar)

If you have a working Ethernet connection on the computer, and your Ethernet card is of one of the types compiled into the installation kernel, you may only need the install system boot files. The installer is capable of installing the kernel and drivers over the network for many common Ethernet cards.

If you have an Ethernet connection for which the installer doesn't have built-in support, you may need both the install system boot files and the kernel and peripheral driver installation files.

If you are installing on a system without a working network connection, or if your network connection is via PPP (using a modem) rather than Ethernet, you will need to obtain all three types of files before starting the installation.

If you're not sure which files you need, just start with the install system boot files. If your first attempt to configure the network within the installer fails, you can just quit, get the extra files you need, and re-start the installation.

The base system installation file basedebs.tar is currently about 27M. If you are able to use a CD, or configure your network before installing the base system, it is better to do so; in that case you won't need this file. The network location is listed in the appendix (Debian Base System Installation Files, Section 11.2.3.4).
http://www.debian.org/releases/stabl...#s-base-images

tjj, that's interesting. But if I were to startup from a floppy, how would the installer find the CD if it won't mount? I can't get the CD to mount to the desktop while the 7500 is already booted so that I could then restart while holding down the 'c' key or selecting the mounted CD in the startup control panel and restarting.

Glanz, I am trying a network install from the CD I referenced above. It's a net install CD for woody on powerpc. And it has all the files you mentioned for whatever the situation, yaboot, bootx, etc... all to be determined once you're booted up with a net connection. I downloaded it with curl which came through nicely as an ISO, not text or otherwise. It's about 27 MB.

I've used Toast many times to make bootable CD's without any troubles. So, it's a mystery to me why this isn't working.

I'll have a look at your last link you posted now...

And.... thanks for helping.

I haven't helped much it seems! BTW, I've never touched a 7500 in my life. This iBook is my first Mac.... after all those loooooooooooong and painful years.... *sigh* :confused:

All I can suggest now is to go to the following two sites, sign up, and pose the important questions. These are truly good sites full of really expert Debian users of all stripes.

http://www.debianhelp.org/

http://www.debianplanet.org/

Glanz, you're giving me a lot of info to think about which hopefully will point me to the solution. And I appreciate that.

Maybe I'll go the floppy method of net install then. It pains me to think about that and how slow it is. But, hey, if it works I will be happy.

It's not that slow..... The floppies merely direct the download to the correct files and then arrange them in a coherent format. Sometimes it's actually faster because if you have a fast connection, then you'll hear a reassuring schalk-sclaksputz sound of the machine reading the floppies from time to time. :D

Whoops! Some messages are coming through very close to one another. So, I hadn't seen your links of late for posting questions. That could be a good call.

Oh yea, what I meant about the floppy method being slow wasn't the act of the net install but rather the making of the darn things. You know the old insert one floppy and copy then eject, insert another one and the same, etc...

I just ordered a Woody PPC installation CD from
http://www.everythinglinux.com.au/ca...9df1b847620918
I will try to install it on an older Mac ppc portable at work and I will let you guys know if it works. It costs $10.......

That's nice of you Glanz. I haven't gotten much further myself. I'm currently looking at some newsgroups for comp.os.linux.powerpc to see if I find anything that might help. I already looked at the mailing list archives but didn't come up with much specific to my situation. Most everyone there was able to install and then had other problems. But nothing about not being able to get a net install floppy or CD working, and some on similar models to mine too. Sheesh!

Check this out.... LOL!

I like this part the best>>

...<<When people have to sacrifice chickens to their scsi bus, stand
on their heads in a corner, and pray to LinuxPPC's favorite deity
(Cthulu??) in order to get an install going, that is IMHO a problem.>>

I'm not too sure about chickens..... Don't have any...., but I have a nice cat I could lend you...:D

....maybe swallowing a few goldfish would do.... :)

Progress Report
 

Last night, I finally got the floppies made after much difficulty. The instruction page tells you what files you might need but doesn't offer links to all of them which made it all harder to find the correct ones. And even after making them, it tells you how unreliable they are.

I had numerous kernel panics which then you have to wait for three minutes until it will reboot. I found that it was the ram disk part that seemed to cause them and I would have to shut down and wait a good five minutes before trying again or I'd get another one right away.

Eventually, I was able to get the ram disk loaded and begin the install. I got to partition the drive and then select the net install method but got the same kernel panic at that point, perhaps because it didn't like the host name I gave it which was the default one. In retrospect, I probably should have given it the same one as it had for the mac os. Or it could have been the default url that it didn't like, I'm not sure.

At least I had some progress and I will be continuing in my spare time today.

Re: Progress Report
 

I just found this superbe resource for folks like us who want to install Linux on ppc...
Check these forums out... They are quite good...
http://forums.tuxppc.org/index.php

Thanks Glanz, that's a good one. Too bad more folks don't post there though. I did find one poster who is having the exact troubles I am. And it was from a long time ago too. No follow up on it though.

Here's where I'm at at the moment. Trying to get the net install comes back with, "wget: www.debian.org: Host name lookup failure". And I can use the exact same url from that box under OS 8.6 and connect no problem.

So, I thought about NFS mounting although I have no experience with NFS at all. Couldn't get it to work with a, "192.168.0.1: /Users/thatch/Documents/DebianStuff/". That's the recommended format for the server: path to files according to the installer.

And now I'm thinking of trying to copy all the necessary files to the HFS mac drive and see if I can point the installer to it. First attempt at that didn't work but I didn't have all the files there at the time.

I can't access the console much. As soon as you get one, it say to press enter to continue and then gives some brief instructions. Then anything I type after the prompt gets a kernel panic, will reboot in 180 seconds. Then I have to wait for the mac os to boot, shut that down, wait five minutes before trying to boot the installer again or it will KP immediately. What a PITA!

I know it's going to work great once I finally get it all together though. No wonder some of those guys you linked to took most of a week to get it installed. :eek:

It was much much easier on the iBook......

I now have some Debian CDs being made for the iBook... Regular DebianPPC CD's... I had two last week, but they weren't burned correctly. This time I have an expert at the U doing it for me.... a professor of InfoTech. He says that the whole ShEbAnG will come to about 7 CDs..... HolyMoley! ... 7CDs???/!!!! Oh well, I'll give it a try and if worse comes to Wurst, ot best to best, I'll make some copies and send them to you. You always wanted 6,000 applications, 4,000 of which no-one has any idea of the use, dontcha? HuHhUh???? In any case, once you've used Debian, you'll be hooked for life......
I'll get in contact with you in a week or so on that..... via the forum "send a msg" system. In the meantime, if you get Debian installed, you will have earned it. Your name will be engraved on the great geek monolith in the sky. Pilgrims will recall the Debian adventure as they read your name off the list and wonder..................
"who were these hopeless geeks anyway?"
{ok... I'll stop...}

Okay, great! BTW, I read on the install pages that you'll only need the first three CD's. But there are probably extra apps and pkgs on the rest on them.

My latest fiasco.... I was on OS 8.6 and using the old version of Netscape to d/l some of those files for me to point the installer to. And when I got done and quit Netscape, they all disappeared! I realized that I had to not only d/l them all over again, but also change each ones type and creator codes. Aaayyyyeee!

It's been like this the whole way through. Each little accomplishment is followed by an equal setback of sorts. It's kind of like shoveling ***** against the tide.

On those forums for linux, I could see there were a bunch of folks there who will also qualify for geekiest awarding, many never came back, which could be a good thing or a really bad thing. It's definitely not for the faint of heart.

:)hehe:) I was once on a sailboat sailing against the tide in the St Lawerence near Quebec City with a really strong wind. I was going full speed.... 7 knots against a tide rush of nine.......

I have installed Linux on at least 200 machines in my life, and FreeBSD on more. ...normally for others or for research depts..... On Macs too, but always with commercial CDs. I have had the usual hardware problems, but nothing radical. The problem with a Debian install on an older Mac is that no-one has really documented it...., well, I mean....
But if you ever get it installed, you'll love Debian. The ease of use is daunting. The power is amazing as is the quality of the application integration. It's getting through the door that's hard. We get lost in labyrinths of documentation like Alices in geek-speak wonderlands.

I will work later tonight and tomorrow morning researching your predicament. I'll be back. This is beginning to interest me a lot..... BTW, when I get those 7CDs, I'll install everything, except unnecessary server stuff, just for the fun of it. I figure it will take me five years to read launch and read the man pages for each app I'v never heard of......

All righty then,

Now I'm at the point where I am going to install the configure device driver modules. I had to make a couple of more floppies to get this far. Grrrr. A total of five of them now. But I'm not certain which drivers to install. I'm going to be following along the install instructions but that doesn't guarantee I'll know which ones even from that since it's particular to the 7500 is most cases. So, I'll probably have to guess at some of them. And I don't want to install any needless ones which could cause problems and take up ram. Grinding away now....

I read that if you wanted to install everything on all those CD's that you need about 2 GB including the system, but that you wouldn't necessarily want to do that because there are many packages that conflict with other packages.

If I get through this stage okay, I think the next thing is to update the kernel which could be tough. I know there are some in binary which would save me the compiling. To compile, I would need some packages installed too, which I'm not certain I could get with the small kernel I presently have. Ahh, the unknown. It's a mystery.

PowerMac 75001.0.5

* output-device defaults to ttya
* Requires special: output-device /chaos/control
* Need to Apply OF Patch at this link>>

http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/S...f105patch.html

#########
Note...: Debian, especially after the instal, but also during if the system is up, will not let the user install conflicting packages. APT will detail all choices and options during conflicts to give the user a choice. Unlike RPM distros in whhch searching for dependencies lead to further often impossible to find dependencies, Debian is real sweeeeeeeet. If you ever do get it up, I'll lead you to some good lessons and give you a few really handy tips on APT-(get), dpkg, etc.
#############
That NetBSD site is good for instructions and patches. Remember, the same procedures apply, and the installation "interoperability" is total.

Glanz, where'd you find that OF patch? And at what stage of the installation should it be used? I've heard no mention of it on the instructions so far. I wonder if it could be why I can't:

1) install from a CD

2) install over a network connection even though I have DHCP working

I am currently stuck, again, on installing the base system file which is supposedly called basedebs.tar. It will expand or install to around 70 MB. But they don't mention anywhere about the path to finding it on their servers. There's nothing I've been able to install other than with floppies. And that one is just too big for that.

I've even tried installing some of the previous files needed by copying them to the apple disk on the 7500 and pointing the installer there. But the installer didn't like the path which apparently must be the same as the network install path. So, for basedebs.tar, I have no idea how to get it or what path I should arrange on my hard drive for it, (you have to make all the sub-directories and everything for the complete path with the same exact naming). It's not at all intuitive of much.

I had thought that perhaps I didn't have the correct config dev drivers and maybe that's why my CD-Rom won't mount a CD and that the network will say it's got the DHCP lease but not go to any url. The driver install parts are supposed to have a description if you select them and press enter but they don't. It just want to install them when you press enter. I can't see any of them have been installed at all because the base ones for the minimal system install are hidden from me at this stage. If I had a full install, I could go find them with the shell, but that's not an option yet because the shell will cause a kernel panic and I would have to start the entire installation over again at that.

I'm currently twiddling my fingers in dismay. :confused:

I just happend by chance to find the basedebs.tar. But I have my doubts about it liking my path to it once I download and move it over to the 7500.

I found it here >> http://penguinppc.org/projects/quik/quirks.shtml
to which I was referred from here>>
http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/inst/pmac
after trippin' around here>>
http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/

OIC, well that's if you're installing with the quik method which I believe is also the potato install, not for me I don't think.

Question?
 

If I move a file over from my G4 via Appletalk over ethernet to the 7500's HFS partition, I must mount that partition which brings me to the mount point. What do I do with that? Do I try to mount it into a linux partition? I don't think it would fit if that's the case. So, how do I mount that then?

I think I can mount the HFS inside the linux partition and point the installer there when it needs files I have put there. Unfortunately, I had to abort the install process to do this because I had to reboot into OS 8.6 to copy the files and make the particular directories to accommodate the path.

If I only knew of all the files I needed in advance, I would have done this hard disk method of install long ago. I hope it works. It is one of the choices in the instructions. But who knows. So far, nothing has worked as they said it would. I won't be holding my breath, that's for sure.

You're on the right path.....

the boot sector, point to /proc and ...&... I'll get back..

Yesterday, I read a document on that...... Now I have to find it. I was trippin' from link to link.......... I am checking the history in Galeon now.

I actually didn't need to mount the HFS inside the linux partition. The installer asks where to locate it and you type in the path. It doesn't like a lot of what you think should be exactly correct though. I figured it out by omitting the last directory and it started to install the base system. But just now I looked over and it stopped and says, "debootstrap exited with an error (return value 1)". Oh-oh! No other explanation as to why it failed. I'll try it again.

Oh geez. Now it says:I think it might just be an erroneous error and maybe I should just proceed on to the next step to see what will happen.

But if is ISN'T an erroneous error or a mistaken mistake, then you have Debian installed!!!!! Congrats!!! :D LOL

GeeeeeZZZZZZZ what a trip:)

That's like spending two hours configuring XFree for FreeBSD and typing "startx" and getting told you don't have X and you have no root or users..... Happens every time to me with FreeBSD.

Well, I tried to proceed and unmount, mount, redo the file system... blah blah blah, but it seems as though I may have the wrong basedebs.tar file. The reason I think so is that there are more than one, each in different directories that are right near eachother. Sound confusing? Yup, it is.

I'm getting good at aborting the install and rebooting into 8.6 to get Appletalk going over ethernet and copying a file I've downloaded from my G4, then booting back from the floppy into Debian to start the whole file system installation over again. Whew! Did I just say all that? Sorry for the rambling.

One more try and that will be it until I come back to it later 'cause I'm going to need a break to s.s.+s.

Guess what? After all that work, I chose to abort the install as I had said in my last message. Then the next time I came to boot it up, it got to the point where I was supposed to switch from one floppy to the next and then, KP. Repeated the same a couple of times. I noticed instead of it asking for the ram disk, it wanted a root disk. Well, the installer told me at one point that I couldn't make one of those for my rig.

Since then, I was reading the installer page about using BootX to startup into Debian. So, I futzed with that but was unable to get it going at all. I'm not sure if I had the right kernel for BootX. There was no way to boot into Debian at all.

I figured I better see about booting into open firmware as suggested in the instructions. Went over and pressed the power button and..... nada. The box is toast. Can't boot into anything now. It's fried.

Unbelievable bad luck. I was so close too. I think it's the power supply. I've been through two of them since the original already, in years past of course. I'm not likely to pump another couple of hundred bucks into it at this point either. It's not worth it to me.

Maybe the powerbook 3400 is next, but the wife may not want me to chance it getting hosed. What a day.

Check this thread::::: http://forums.macosxhints.com/showth...&threadid=8849

Some of the info may be useful...

I'm slightly embarrassed to say, but now the 7500 has arisen from the dead! It turns out that when I tried to boot into open firmware, that put it in a state of what seemed like death. No LED lit up next to the power button, no display, but until I put my noisy G4 to sleep which is just a couple of feet away from the 7500, I didn't realize that she was still running, albeit in a strange state. Another LED light on the front was covered up by the keyboard so I didn't see that one either and it was on. So, a force reboot was all it needed.

The bad news is that it won't boot into Debian, not from BootX or with the install disks. It KP's on both methods consistently. So, my only choice was to initialize the hard drive with Drive Setup again and start the whole process over which I could do in about 30 minutes now that I had all the right files and experience of doing it before. And this time the install went flawlessly because I had the correct basedebs.tar file. But at the end of the install process, it asks if you want to make it the boot drive permanently, which I do not because I have the other hard drive with OS 8.6. So, I choose the reboot option and that takes me back into 8.6 where I then try to get BootX going again. But now it's back to the KP's.

There are so many things that could be causing all this, it's hard to say. Perhaps there are some boot args that have to be added to BootX. Or maybe I don't have all the correct device drivers installed. Or there's that little open firmware patch which is suspect. If I could just get it to boot in console only mode, I could install and change things, etc... I don't know what else to do if I can't get it to boot though.

thatch, sorry to hear about your woes. It seems, though, you're quite close. I'm afraid I've got nothing to report yet. I had multiple kernel panics on my G3 trying to back up my pb3400 (8.6) via file sharing/apple talk. In the end, I had to boot into 9.2 and then it worked out. I downloaded the official non-us Debian CD 1. I plan to have a small os 8 on the 2 GB drive on my pb3400, and then the rest of it is for debian. (If I can get it to work).

tjj, thanks for the kind words. But I'm enjoying the challenge now as compared to yesterday when I was having so much trouble with so many things. It seems like I'm bound to figure it out being that I'm so close now.

Good luck on the powerbook. I hope some of my very long winded thread is reference to some things that can come up. The manual instructions are very difficult but have the info in them in not always the most orderly fashion. If you can install from the CD, you are likely to have a much easier time of it than I did.

Best,

thatch

That's what I hope;) I agree that the manual isn't light reading! I have particularly problems with the chapter on hardware configuration. (..and I haven't even gotten past the bootX part....

If this is anything at all like the Linux installs I have done on PCs then you simply can't boot into Linux if the Linux boot manager is not the default unless you use the floppy boot method. The Mac will not take care of booting into Linux just as Windows will not recognize a Linux FS and will not boot into that. In fact it won't even "see" it.

Geeeee... good luck guys! I wish I was there witcha. I have pretty good luck on Linux installs.

Glanz, that's what BootX is for though. It's installed into my system folder on 8.6 and when I boot, I get the choice of either OS at that time. But I'm still getting kernel panics every time I try anything for Debian.

And I can't boot from the floppies either. I get KP not matter what. So, I could reinstall again by using Drive Setup from 8.6 to initialize the drive again and then I could start over from the beginning. If I come to the end and can't agree to boot into Debian full time as it asks, I'll be right back to where I am now, no gain. I'm stuck. Again.

OIC now....... Maybe an older version of bootx would be apropos.

I am still having imlib problems believe it or not. The prob now is that the finkies "corrected" their original error, the result of which seems to be a shared library problem that Gnome solved in 2001. "Fast forward to the past", as it were. I sent them a letter from the chief Gnome developer on this subject. Until then, I had to dump Gnome. Neither imlib, the old or the Fink new can handle newer WMs without problems. In the meantime, I'm back to Wmaker. I do like Fink, but I have work to do, and the incessant probs are preventing me from doing my job. I have molecules to tweak, and miles to go before I sleep.....

Tonight I will install Debian on my personal iBook, which means I will no longer have OS X on any of my machines...... The only thing Apple I'll have left is the hardware and the OS X installation CD's.