French Riots
 

Is there anyone on this forum from France, or even Europe at large, who could comment on this article? I'm only vaguely familiar with the problem, and would like to know more.

French Youth Riots

Sounds reminiscent of the riots we had in Sydney. Trouble with situations like this is they are in a disadvantaged area to begin with and the damage they cause their own community and infrastructure isn't likely to be repaired in a hurry.

Kind of like a prison riot. These folks are trapped in a ghetto not unlike Watts -- they have few or any skills and no prospects. Too much time on their hands. It's a "what the hell, it can't get any worse" situation. It's the down side of virtually all the world's refugee status immigration; the folks involved too often become very restless wards of the state.

Why are they all Islamic? Is there a reason they are predominately Islamic youth? I mean, I can understand why they are angry, being poor does that to you, but I was under the impression that France really isn't that racist of a country. So, why are they mostly Islamic?

Could just be a quirk of immigration patterns. I don't know about France but in Australia migrants tend to settle near others from the same country. I mean it makes sense in terms of community support to be near friends/relatives and people who speak the same language and understand your culture. The downside is it insulates them from integration into the broader society.

Much can be assessed from the following quote:

“This is war. There is no mercy. We want at least two policemen dead.”

This is not the call of poverty and those in need. This is a response of the militant.

If you look at this map of the French Empire in 1914, you'll see that a lot of Northwestern Africa was part of it, including Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria and others, all of which are solidly Muslim countries populated by a lot of folks who speak at least some French. Where would you expect them to migrate to?

I'm not from France, but the way I understand it is, back in the 1960s France went through a period of growth and construction, and they needed lots of labor, so they brought in a lot of workers from places like their former colonies like Morocco and Algeria. The workers brought their families, and they were housed in the then-new high-rise suburbs. This was fine for one generation. But as growth slowed, the kids of those workers got caught between that and France's socially limited job mobility in general, and they also became dependent on welfare. This makes them feel dependent, powerless, and frustrated.

The wrong thing to do is to paint this as some kind of Islamic jihad thing. These rioters are French. They were born in France and if you sent them to their parents' home countries they would probably not know how to function there. This is a economic and class problem through and through. It is part of why Sarkozy wants to blow up some of the old rules that prevent the kind of opportunities and social mobility we take for granted here in the US.

So the main reason they are Islamic is because France had a lot of Islamic colonies, like all the Indians in England from the former English colony of India. Given all the Vietnamese we let in after the Vietnam War, don't be surprised if there are a lot more Iraqis living in the US in 20 years.

The problems are similar to the minority underclasses in the US. If you want to get all karmic about it, you could say that these countries bring these problems upon themselves by thinking only about short term economic gain. The white racists complain about the blacks and Chinese, but hey, it was the whites who brought them here for cheap/free labor. The French complain about the Muslim underclass, but it was the French who first colonized their homelands, tried to suppress their insurgencies before their inevitable independence, and then imported them as cheap/free labor.

Anyone who is actually French is free to correct me on any of these points since I mostly got them from various news articles.

Germany will, no doubt, have similar problems with its Turkish population. Same story -- needed the cheap labor, but when the second generation born in Germany got an education they weren't cheap any more. Now there's a large Turkish population who are really treated in many ways like second-class citizens. Similarly, the birth rate in the Province of Quebec is the lowest in Canada, and yet immigrants have a tough time there in many ways -- they aren't true Quebecois.

I'm not French, and I think you have highlighted the problem correctly. I do object to the solution implied that all of these problems will go away by initiating US-style reforms.

There is no evidence to support your assertion that opportunity and social mobility in the US is higher than elsewhere. Indeed, as the references linked to in this Wikipedia article point out, social mobility is no higher in the US than it is in Britain. The US stopped being the 'land of opportunity' around about 1980.

It is countries like Canada and Nordic Europe that have the highest social mobility.

I think the solutions to France's problems are likely to be way more complex than simply copying the US.

yup, stereotypes perpetuated by the media are easily identifiable.

I just rented the documentary "Jesus Camp" and it's pretty scary to watch. The Christians there actually want their kids to be as devoted (read: brainwashed) as the suicide bombers in the mid-east.

Extremists exists in all sects...

Making a call, and a request to posters...
 

.
Ok, friends, I am taking the liberty of deleting the last three posts. While some may deem them relevant to the topic of discussion, I don’t find them constructive. Furthermore, according to feedback that I have gotten via PM, people have been offended -- and I can see why.

If anything, the deleted posts were heating up the discussion, and fast -- underscoring why some would prefer to ban anything that even remotely touches on politics.

However, I believe we can try to find a middle way, continuing to post with intelligence and reflection -- as has been the rule here -- while showing a greater sensitivity when it comes to choosing our words (and images).

With best regards,
ArcticStones


PS. If any of you disagree with my call, please feel free to send me a PM.
.

Sounds reasonable to me ArcticStones.

Just occurred to me that we have had other riots in Sydney since this one. The case I was referring to was riots at Redfern.

Has anyone seen the French film La Haine? Its about the riots in the 90's, and i think its one of the best films ever, it gives you an insight to why there were and are riots in france

I haven't seen it but it must have had some insight for the prime minister to have arranged a special screening for his cabinet ( assuming that actually happened? ).

rent it, you wont regret it :)

My post, which was deleted, cannot possibly be offensive. It didn't point out any specific religion, only that there is SOME religion out there that seems to promote violence. If that's not your religion, then why would you be offended? It doesn't apply to you. If it does apply, then it's true, and why would truth be offensive?

I think my post was simply a paradox, and should not have been deleted.

bonjour!

This is the first I have heard about it.... seriously.... we have become so accustomed to the French going on strike, having a riot or burning cars that it doesn't even make the news 21 miles away over the English Channel.

after searching the Beeb... I found this which is about as good an explanation as any....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4413964.stm

Not to make this subject become volatile, but i have to disagree with you, I know which religion in specific you are talking about, and you have to understand it's the smallest minority who commit such acts of violence. It may be the truth for that minority, but you have to be aware that the rest of the religion does not approve, and those who do are not considered to be true members of said religion.

Also, every religion has an "extreme" faction, eg the IRA, or the KKK just to name 2. I could write pages on pages to why you are wrong, but i dont want to turn this into conflict.

Recall carefully the picture which was posted and deleted.

There was NO religion identified with the symbol in question.

You INFERRED something that was not expressed.

I didnt see the picture that was deleted, so i cant say that i recall it. I was just going on the posts that are still on the thread, if Im wrong it what i said then i apologize, but in my post i also didnt specify a religion...

<post removed after reconsideration of forum policy>

Let's try to recall that examples of the behavior of individuals whose actions are guided by their own distorted view of any given religion abound for almost all modern religions and that many of these are abhorrent to the "rest of us".

There's a word for using a part to imply the whole that almost applies here, in this case because the behavior of the whole is being branded by the behavior of a part.

From that perspective, the figure that was deleted and the most recent post deleted were synecdochical, and in this forum, that's verboten

How? Because you know that a specific religion is known for violence and bombing, so the bomb symbol must refer to that religion? If that religion really is so violent, then we should expose it. If it's not, then obviously my picture didn't apply, right?

Really Carlos -- there are only so many world-wide religions -- a simple process of elimination would have revealed the missing one to someone before 9/11

There are only four religions?

Or that religion was already known for violence before 9/11?

Although i have a lot more to say on this subject, i think we should stop as to avoid conflict, after all we're all friends here :D

LOL, this post is getting pointless. Every religion has violent extremists. I have friends that are practicing Jews (they keep a kosher kitchen), muslim (they don't allow me to speak with the women when I visit), Christian, Buddhist, etc., etc. None of them have cursed or attempted to harm me...actually they all give me a nice meal when I visit.

If you dig deep enough you'll find a rich history of violence in most religions. That's why I prefer to obey the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Being of the FSM sect myself, I agree with Fat Elvis.

You heathens! The Flying Canneloni Monster is the only true master!

I am touched by his noodly appendage.