I need an opinion on an ethical issue
 

First off, a bit of a story. My girlfriend and I were at her house, and I was working on my MacBook Pro for a business report for my Economics class. I needed to go wash my hair in her bathroom (We were getting ready for Senior ball. It was fun, BTW), so I let her sister use my computer.

When I got back, I had found out that this idiot ex-boyfriend of my girlfriend (He dumped her for her sister) had tossed his cell phone at my laptop, busting the screen. Of course you can imagine my anger.

So, next day, I decided to schedule a Genius Bar appointment on the monday after Senior Ball (Senior cut day, woohoo). I was expecting to pay $1000 for a screen replacement, but lo and behold, I was covered under AppleCare. Major win on my part. They should be calling in a day or so to tell me my screen's arrived. (I opted to take the computer and bring it in when the part came in.)

So here's the ethical issue. They told me it may be a couple days once I *do* drop it off. So even though this idiot sort of got off the hook, I want to charge him for the productive damages. (Especially so since my school year is coming down to the wire, with two finals to get done, and I can't afford to lose much time on this) A lot of my friends raised a huge stink about this, saying it's unethical to charge him ANYTHING for the damage he did to my computer.

So I wanted to pass this by you guys and see what you think. Are my actions within ethical boundaries?

Personally - I'd say no, you can't do that on ethical grounds; but I don't blame you for thinking or asking this to be totally honest, that wasn't a nice thing for that guy to have done. However, maybe consider the following...

You already know that should you have sent this idiot a bill, you would not have received anything back from him but a sarcastic laff and a message to "(&$% off" yeah...? So there's no point in doing this - you'd only get even more angry and frustrated at this. People like him have no respect at all.

But, why not go speak to the police? Be totally honest about what's happened, as you have been here, and ask them if they agree with you that this idiot needs to learn the meaning of responsibility and respect of other people property. I am not sure of the attitude of the cops where you are but given your honesty and integrity, they may totally agree with you that this guy needs to learn a lesson and they would agree to pay him a visit, and would therefore be willing to give him the shock of his life...!!!

Just a thought because in my opinion, honesty is by far the best policy, and gets you everywhere... :)

How's that?

I liked that response.

I am charging him for the damages, but if he doesn't agree to just pay up, I'm going to do as you said.

You're very welcome - hope you get the resolution you deserve.

I would simply like to point out: if you do go after him legally for damages, you are going to run into some trouble. First off, civil litigation isn't exactly a cake walk, and I doubt you will collect enough damages to interest a lawyer (though I guess you don't need one...)

Secondly, in court this would just turn into a "he said/she said" situation. Your only witnesses are your girlfriend and her x-boyfriend, which will make her testimony suspect at best.

Lastly, the damages are more or less being covered, what is the loss in productivity going to be? $50? Courts won't be all that interested in $50 versus the $1000 you have already collected. And don't even think of charging him the $1000, once the court finds out you have it under warranty (and his lawyer will mention it if he's not an idiot), they'll throw you out on your ear.

Bottom line, it's a pretty risky proposition to try and pull him down legally. From an ethical perspective, I think you're totally in line to do it. Just understand that realistically it's not going to be easy.

now........perhaps its just me......... but I would have immediatly stuffed his phone sideways in his mouth... and demanded he bought me a new MB right there and then.

I suspect your lucky that you can get your MB fixed FOC, and he is lucky too.. and at the ned of the day he will get away with it coz your a nice guy. :D

Question: You paid for AppleCare correct? If so then he should reimburse you for the cost of the AppleCare. If you had not bought AppleCare, he would be obliged to pay the full cost of the damages. I believe any small claims court would award you the full damages had you not had AppleCare. Point being, it was to your expense that the damage was actually covered (That warranty was not free). That might be a quirky one in court, but you'd stand a chance of recovering the AppleCare purchase. Hard to say since I'm not an attorney or a judge.

Ethics be d@mned! What is required here is revenge and, as many have said, revenge is a dish best served cold. Since everyone seems to be off the hook cash-wise, you should wait until the anxiety over exams has quieted and then figure a way to excruciatingly extract the full value of the trauma caused from his hide... Be, uh, creative. :D

He should definitely hear 'hoofbeats in the night'... :D

Ethically (if you insist on doing it that way :( ), you can't go after him for the repair money, although the AppleCare idea (above) is pretty cool....

It is so refreshing to hear a person actually is concerned with ethics anymore.

I'm sure if I would ask a lawyer about this, ethically, you are due all that can reasonably established as fees, expenses, and trouble. VegasMac was brilliant in this regard. Consider also your travel expenditures, time out of your life when you could have been doing something else, the trouble it has caused you regarding school. Add all these up and give him a bill. You can also get a lawyer to draft you a letter regarding payment--the letterhead lets them know you are serious. You can then take him to small claims court and add the expenses of the court proceedings as well as the time out of your schedule on to the bill for his non-payment. These are all legal and ethical recourses.

on a side note... culturally... its interesting that most Americans would immediatly think about getting layers involved and start procedures to sue... you guys will sue anything that moves :)

As a Brit... I cant imagine that ever happening... or wanting that to happen....not for a laptop screen..

...like I say... I would resort to physical violance... and then que up to bend over and take it like a true Brit

lol i too say ethics be d@amned. The guy needs a lesson it respect for your stuff. btw why exactly did the guy throw the cell at your MB? was it because he was jealous or what?

This is because, since the 60s, the sanctity of a commitment has been lost. In my father's days, your handshake or your word is your bond. Today, we need contracts and notaries to make sure you will do your end without leaving the other holding the bag.
In the US, personal responsibility has gone out the window. Hence the need to involve small claims. We are so stupid in this regard, we actually have TV shows of small claims (ie People's Court).
As for "getting lawyers involved", all I said was to get a letter stating intentions. Small claims does not have lawyers, just a judge to rule on the matter. If a judge sees reasonable claim documentation, plus a legal correspondence, the judge will rule in your favor more often than not. As in most legal cases, the one with the most documentation (bills, receipts, records etc) wins.
The reason why I took this approach is because the x-boyfriend sounded like a jerk, and in the US, dealing with jerks means more hassle for fair and equitable response (What do they care? They're jerks), and thereby needs a little more pull from the city legal system.

And yes, you are correct about the US. Litigation has become the new lottery. It's crippling us in many ways, and without Tort reform, it will only get worse.

First, the OP's issue: much as I in your place would want revenge for what amounts to senseless vandalism, I would, in the end, convince myself to do nothing at all except dump the girlfriend. Who needs that grief? Retribution would be for you to go and bust his windshield and let his comprehensive insurance pay for it. Roughly the same hassle level, but in the end it will only cause you grief, so don't do it.

Now, to Schneb: In my experience, litigation only enriches lawyers which is why there are so many in the US. Some years back, I read that the ratio of lawyers to engineers was 15 to 1 in the US and the reverse in most European and Pacific Rim countries. Gotta tell you something. Remember that lawyers are both the gatekeepers and the ones who profit in litigation - they will always find a way to delay and delay and delay each other (the opposing sides, I mean) - It's a club; you delay me, I'll delay you, we both win. Justice had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The time you'll take carting your machine back and forth to the Apple store is worth something, as I don't know about you, but my time is money. I'd imagine the same is true for you. The loss of the ability to use your computer to study is a measurable loss and that's billable. The value of your computer depreciated the second the Genius took a screw driver to it. That's billable and ethical to do so. A stretch, to be sure, but it's a loss and therefore ethical to bill against.

At a minimum you can and should bill him for the time going back and forth to the Genius bar, and gas money to boot if you have to drive.

These are not expenses you would have incurred had he not broken your screen and you should be allowed recompense. The depreciation on the computer is almost immeasurable and thus not worth even asking for, but your time is easily measurable, should be, and should be compensated for.

But before you do that ask yourself: was it a simple accident?

Accidents happen. That's why we have insurance or Apple Care. Do you need to be billing and/or potentially suing this kid? Did he intentionally throw his phone at your laptop? If so, and you didn't already beat the tar out of him them by all means bill him. but if it was an accident then think twice about what you're looking to achieve by billing him.

I too would burn for revenge if for nothing else but the wanton disregard for other people's lives/property/etc that people like that have.

Having said that, I know from personal experience and other's experience that you are much much much much much (have I made it clear? :) ) much much better off letting it slide.

*Even* if you got some sort of money out of him, you will get a hundred times as much grief from him and no doubt others for perpetuity. You will give yourself an ulcer or grey hair from the stress of just the pursuit, let alone what happens after that. You don't need it, it won't make you happy, it won't teach him a lesson, it won't teach any other jerks in the world a lesson, it won't compensate you for your time or worry.

What you should do (and I'm referencing Schneb and Photek a little here) is actually *talk* to the guy. Treat him like a human (instead of the **** he is) and let him know what a pain he caused you through his carelessness (point out that you know it was just that and not anything more deliberate or malicious). Let him know that *you* paid big bucks for Apple Care, otherwise it would have cost *him* a grand or whatever. That it has taken a lot of time and effort for you to get it fixed when you should be studying.....Then...let him know that you know it was an 'accident', so you won't be laying any costs for time, petrol etc on him, BUT if he could me more mindful of the consequences of his actions and other people's property in future, that would make you happy. (do this even if you've already said you will pass on the costs, it look even more mature)

You will get more respect from him, he will feel indebted to you rather than angry that you made him pay for something, and he might actually start recognising his actions have consequences. Tomorrow, he might be 10% less of a jerk, and everyone will be better off because you were a bigger man than he!

(I'm reminded of Sting's Englishman in New York: "It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile" ... substitute 'ignorance' for just about anything that pisses you off!)

Let the respective karmas take care of it. What goes around, comes around. No need to go out of your way to enable retribution. It will happen to him on its own, and you will have the ethical/moral higher ground.

Karma isn't passive; you have to make it, one way or the other...

this whole thing stopped being an issue of property a long time ago. now it's a psychological issue - you, anti (and everyone else by reflection) want to find some sort of punishment for this guy because it will help you feel like you've reasserted control over an otherwise dumb, painful moment in life. it may make you feel that way, of course, but it doesn't actually give you any meaningful control; you just become a dumb, painful moment in someone else's life, and the world becomes that much worse of a place.

just let it go, except for telling your girlfriend's sister that she's no longer allowed to use your computer when her friends are around.

Thank you for saying it in a more articulate fashion than I.

First, let me preface this by saying that if the guy did break your Mac, he's a serious @ssh0l3. Hopefully, Karma will take its course.

Now, I don't want to be a wet blanket here, but why hasn't anyone mentioned the ethics of making Apple eat this? The AppleCare "insurance" as it was called, is very specific in its terms. The program is designed to only cover defects, not accidental (or intentional) damage.

This is pretty clear in the AppleCare Agreement Section 1. Repair Coverage. a. Scope of Coverage, and b. Limitations, item (ii). The document can be perused here:
http://images.apple.com/legal/applec...Plan_NA_en.pdf

Just food for thought.

Sorry for the long wait on a reply. Real life intruded.

This is the route I was going to take, charging him the 300 dollars I paid up for AppleCare. But now everyone's mad that I backed down from charging $1000.

So what? There's a line between "Fair" and "Totally unfair". I prefer to stay on the former.

EDIT: I also pointed this out to the Mac Genius, and he got it covered because of some dead pixels in the lower-right corner of my screen. Had it been just the ding, I would have had to pay full price.

insurance is a form of gambling, and gambling always produces ethical tangles. for instance, I could ask whether it's ethical of Apple to get money from people by playing on their fears that their computer will break. Ethically, they should simply guarantee their product, and not charge extra for the security, yah?

believe me, in any form of gambling the house always wins. Apple has a team of morlocs in the basement running numbers on incoming revenue for Applecare sales, outgoing repair/replacement costs, customer satisfaction and loyalty (and consequent machine sales), and etc. If it wasn't worth it to them, they wouldn't let it happen.

Strikes me as a pretty convoluted (as well as less than highly ethical) answer.. :confused:

I say...Charge him for everything! :
>The AppleCare
>the petrol/diesel used in transport to the Apple Store
>The depriceation of the MacBook
>the inconvinence (50p an hour of MacBook downtime or something like that)
>whatever else you can think of!

Ethical Apple Care -- with a profit
 

I really don’t see the problem.

Apple offers a service; we decide whether or not to purchase it. Apple Care is an insurance far above and beyond normal warranty. Many of us prefer that peace of mind.

Do I expect Apple to make a profit on this service? You bet! Do I think that is unethical? Not by any stretch of the imagination!

Would that be pounds or pence?

I'm not sure what strikes you as convoluted (except that the whole situation is a bit twisted...)

so look, in a perfect world:

• Apple would make a bulletproof product, and stand by it
• customers would shop for quality, and appreciate companies that gave it to them

in the real world, though:

• customers balance quality against price, in a fairly unsubtle manner
• Apple uses lower standards on quality control to keep price down, increasing the likelihood of defective machines
• Apple offsets the cost of replacing defective parts by selling insurance against defective parts
• customers offset the cost of repairs by using that insurance in any way they can

in short, you've taken what is (in a perfect world) a matter of personal pride and mutual respect and turned it into a commercial transaction in which all sides are being a bit greedy. all I'm suggesting to you is that Apple is not going to come up with the short end of this stick.

sorry to disillusion you, but when it comes to monetary transactions, ethics is just another commodity to buy and sell. capitalism sucks. :) that's not to excuse people from being moral, mind you; just a recognition that the modern world creates situations in which morality is moot.

Which pretty much brings us back to my first post on this - "ethics be d@mned"... ;)

Since the damage is paid for, I favour the infliction of exquisite pain as a means of revenge. 'Kneecap' the perp, I say. :rolleyes:

okay I was going to ask, since when does apple care cover abuse.....

There are ways around the system, I have done things for clients in the past. I once cleaned up an ibook that this lady spilled cough syrup all over because she was trying to take care of her sick baby and write her term paper for school at the same time. I cleaned it up and sent it in for warranty repair with no traces of the liquid spill. she was a nice single mom in college so I felt bad for her, and hooked her up.

well, that's too sad... I prefer to be moral where I can do it meaningfully, and be decent about things where ethics doesn't apply. there's more to life than getting away with crap, you know... ;)