And you have it:
Close window = command-w
Close application = command-q
No, I'm saying it's wrong to put it in OS X simply because PC switchers want it. Closing the application when you close the last open window is simply not something Mac users have been clamoring for, and I know I'm not the only one to complain about it.
In those cases, close the app instead of the window. Still, most users will be better off if they leave most of their apps running most of the time.

I think there's a difference between "I wish the MacOS had such-and-such feature" and "Why doesn't MacOS do such-and-such the normal (i.e., Windows) way"?

In some cases they may amount to the same inquiry but it does make a difference how you word it.

The Mac experience for the most part is the OS, and the various Microsoft OS's have been the main threat to the continued healthy existence of the Mac for lo these 20 years. Aside from that, though, even when the comparison-OS is not a Microsoft OS, "Why doesn't OS X behave as it should which is how <other OS> does"? can be an abrasive way of expressing the inquiry.

If you came in here and said, for instance, "How the hell do I get a Desktop to which I can drag files from any volume, like under MacOS 9, without it freaking copying the file? I just want my Desktop to contain the contents of every Desktop folder on every mounted volume, that's what a Desktop should be. Oh, and I should be able to select Put Back when I'm done and have the files all zip back to where I dragged them from"... if you posted that in here, you'd most likely get some people posting "OS X doesn't work like OS 9; there are reasons and advantages to the OS X way of doing 'Desktop', and even if there is some possible hack to make your Desktop behave like OS 9's, you should just get used to the OS X way". And perhaps some folks telling you to stick with OS 9 if the difference is such a dealbreaker for you.

Likewise someone posting "I want to be able to select text and have the OS know I want it to copy so if I then click somewhere else it pastes there, just like a normal Unix environment". Same mixture of "OS X doesn't work that way and it would be complicated to hack it to do so, try to get used to the OSX way" and "Why don't you just install Linux then, if that's what you want?"

Which is not to say you won't find the hacks if they matter that much to you. (I've got OS X looking and behaving and feeling a lot like OS 8/9, complete with no Dock at all. And no freaking Aqua, I hate the Aqua GUI). Put on your asbestos suit, try to phrase your questions so they don't diss OS X, anticipate some flack and don't get annoyed by it, and understand where OS X folks are coming from and why they don't warmly receive questions about how to make OS X look and feel like some other OS.

Umm, no. Those are keyboard shortcuts. Please read my posts to see what I'm after.

Again please read my posts. Where exactly did I ask for that? Even Windows doesn't do that (in most multi-window apps). That would be a plain stupid way for it to behave.

Mark

See, it's really hard to argue that in the Mac world it's stupid to close the app by clicking a UI item, when in each version of OS X, more and more Apple apps do just that, and I've seen the inconsistency confuse new users. Apple forces Windows-style app closing behavior in some, but not all, iLife applications, for crying out loud. At least Windows is consistent. In this area.

Close enough. Adding a fourth button or making the existing buttons dual purpose would complicate the interface without providing any significant boost in performance or usability.
Read my posts. I offered that closing apps when their documents were closed as an another example of the types of Windows "features" that are beginning to pollute the Mac interface. I don't know (or care) if Vista still does it, but I know the XP apps do tend to close (IE, for example) if you close their last open document.

Click and drag to File>Close Window or AppName>Quit. There you have it--one click!

Close enough for you maybe. You have no right to decide what's close enough to what I need for me.

I don't want anything that would stop you working the way you want, and it's not up to you to decide whether the way I want to work is valid or not - that just demonstrates the arrogance of the "this is Mac so there can be no better way to do it" camp.

I do wish you'd stop relating everything to Windows too, as you don't half sound defensive. I'd want what I'm asking for whether I'd ever used Windows or not, because it's simply logical. I have no fixed idea of the actual implimentation, which doesn't have to copy any other OS. I just want what I percieve as a problem to the way I work fixed.

Computers are tools to help me work more efficiently. They're meant to suit me, not the other way arround.

I'm assuming that's a joke, right? ;) You can't seriously think click, hold and drag, release is the same as click can you?

Mark

I thought you wanted a single click. ;)

I don't, but you'll never get Steve Jobs to allow what you're asking for because it will clutter the interface and it doesn't add any significant benefit.
I'm comparing it to Windows because that kind of clutter is a typical Windows "feature" that he is constantly pushing Apple to avoid and because that's what I was talking about when I originally brought up the subject in post #23.

I am defensive. There are too many recent switchers who want the Mac to do things the Windows way for my taste, and I don't think it's good for the platform. It may be great for Apple in the short term, but in the long term it threatens to turn the Mac into just another variation on Windows.

When did I ever say that there can be no better way than the Mac way? Never. That's completely different from saying that:

1. The Windows way isn't necessarily intuitive or better simply because a bunch of recent switchers are familiar with it.
2. The Windows way is already available to them, and if they preferred it they could use it.

Real arrogance is switching to a Mac and then asking to make it work more like your PC. Let's not pretend otherwise; that's what you're really asking, no matter how you disguise the request.

Either be productive, or give it a rest, people. :rolleyes:

Exactly! This is what I'm complaining about. The flood of switchers requesting things like this is hurting the Mac's user interface.

Well I'm glad you know what I'm thinking better than I do. Obviously if you're able to decide what I meant despite my assurance otherwise, you can make it fit whatever argument you want to make. Maybe I do want THIS ELLEMENT to work more like a PC (not my PC - I don't have one), or maybe I don't. Even if I do, all I want is for the bits that make sense from the PC to be used, not for the whole experience to be more PC like.

In fact what I want is for Apple to solve a problem the PC has already solved. How many times would you like me to say that in my mind they don't need to do that by using the same method? You seriously underate the Apple engineers if you think they can't sove this little problem without ruining the experience!

It's your loss - if you can't enter into a sensible discussion about what might or might not be an improvement, without dragging it back to a constant and rather petty "Mac vs Windows", you'll end up being labled a stick in the mud and ignored. OS X WILL change as time goes on, and a lot of the change WILL be in response to users feedback (new users as well as long time users), so if I were in your shoes I'd be entering into the discussion, rather than trying to block anything that looks to you like a request to "Windows-ise" OS X.

Steve Jobs will, quite rightly, do whatever it takes to increase market share, within the limits of what he can be pursuaded is right. I can gurantee that'll never include "ignore what potential switchers from Windows want", so you'd be better off helping to work out what it is that people do like about Windows, what it is that then tempts them over to the Mac, and then how the two can be combined without compromising the "Macness" of the Mac. We could have talked about how my need for a single click way to choose whether to close the app or just a window could be achieved with Mac elegance, but you don't appear open minded enough to do that. Windows allows it, so it must be bad. Ridiculous.

You might argue that Windows is as bloated and whatever else you (and I, but of course you won't believe that) dislike about it exactly because it's chased market share, and that therefore you don't WANT all those switchers on board, but that's not real world, and I for one have confidence that the Apple engineers are capable of appealing to a larger section of the population without compromising the superbly elegant OS they have now.

For the benefit of others who may be a little more pragmatic and open minded, I should point out that I hate having to use Windows nowadays, and love 99.9% of OS X. The suggestion that because I don't like the remaining 0.1% I should switch back is ludicrous. As ludicrous as if I was to suggest that unless that 0.1% was changed, I'd be ditching my Mac.

Mark

Are we done now? Yup.

Thread closed.