It's not? And I don't mean that a bit sarcastically, I just don't understand it. I think this happened a while back when I had a scratched Panther install disc, and needed to reinstall the OS. I had the disc in hand, but it didn't work. So i was very unsure if i could simply download a disc image for it and that'd be fine. I just ended up using the restore CD to install Jaguar and when I realized I couldn't live with out exposé, I purchased another copy of Panther off ebay for cheap. Are you guys saying it would have been fine, in that situation, to go ahead and download a pirated disc image of the OS? (disregarding the potential security problems associated with doing that, of course)

And here's another sticky one for you. What if you own the PC version of a game? Can you download a MacOSX copy of it and use the license? My inclination is to say yes, I own the game anyway, right? Same goes for emulating PlayStation games on my computer. That was ruled legal by the Supreme Court as I recall, so long as I own the CD for the game...

This is all very highly debateable since the retraction and revision of the DMCA. At first it was legal to transfer said owned digital property from one medium to another, and now it is changed and it says it is not. Technically speaking the law now states that you can not change the format of digital media you buy, however, this is also highly in debate right now as well. So, really right now we are kind of in legal limbo, and what you think is legal today, may not be even close to legal tomorrow.

LOL, yeah lets just say office space jokes are said around here on a regular basis and for some reason, talking like Arnold Schwarzenegger never gets old, and is always funny.

Photosohp's a bad example. Photoshop Elements is about $70 US, and I bet a lot of people who think they want to pirate Photoshop because it's so expensive wouldn't even exhaust the feature set of Elements.

I think it's all about karma.

Person A uses some software that someone wants to sell but they can get without paying.

Person A then makes something with said software.

Person A now sells what they make with it and thinks it's worth $x.

Person B takes what person A made without paying $x for it.

Person A gets mad.

Karma.

Couldn't agree more.

I think CAlvarez has a pretty good system, where he only pirates software that he dosn't really use.

Im completely open minded on this, I just want to see some other peoples opinion in whats called an argument, not a fight.

Will people quit with this already
stealing software is not the same as stealing all your money, your car, and your guitar!!


tlarkin was talking a small company that made a game on stolen software, Made money off it, and purchased the software afterward.
Really thats a very similar situation im in. Once i go to work in a company that is selling the content made with that application there is no way i will be using an illegal copy.

if thats so, then i agree with you, for most people software piracy is wrong.

But for my situation, where im learning the software, making cool stuff, not selling my work,
its not wrong
do you agree?

Whether its morally right or wrong doesn't matter, it is still illegal. So just don't get caught is my advice to you. Plus lawyers don't target idividuals most of the time (with the exception of the RIAA). I have done it in the past to learn certain applications but not because I use them, but because I have had to support them and honestly I learn best by myself (since I am completely 100% self taught) and after I am done with it I get rid of it. I don't make any profit off of it and have no moral problem with it, though I do know it is illegal.

I think he actually stated the exact opposite of what you're saying.

I'm not sure if you're asking if it's wrong. I think you're asking if it's OK. It's clearly wrong based on the legal framework. There is no question about that. You sound like you're asking a different question, which is "does it do harm."

It probably doesn't do a lot of harm in your specific situation. But it's a very shaky justification. If you try to argue that piracy is OK because you are a student or because the price is high, then you are stating that it being a student makes it OK to steal, or that it's OK to steal just because you happen to think that a product costs too much. That thinking simply doesn't work in other situations.

If you're learning how to drive, is there any justification for borrowing a car without securing permission? No, because being a student doesn't excuse that.

If you really, really want a Chevy Tahoe but you're $10,000 short of the asking price, it is OK to steal one based on the fact that Chevy builds a $10,000 profit margin into every unit and that you think it's unfair? No, because a high price doesn't justify that.

Some will say "A car is a bad example because something physical is taken." But remember, the question of what harm is done is only one of the two questions. The other questions is whether it is right or wrong regardless of the amount of harm. If you easily do things that are basically wrong, you could be cultivating a mode of thought that can erode your moral judgement elsewhere in life.

No one's a saint; it's really hard to drive within the speed limit on a US highway without being abused by other drivers. But the basic principles and laws are clear enough. I pay for my software and my music and movies, and if I can't afford it, I save up. They're not that important. There is a time to perform illegal acts, but those should be reserved for extreme situations such as the American Revolution or Rosa Parks fighting racism, not relatively inconsequential things like software. You don't want to cultivate a mindset where everyone thinks minor crimes are considered acceptable, because if other people think that, those minor crimes will eventually start happening to you.

yea typed wrong, just fixed it.

How is it not the same?

AKA, read styrafome's last post.

My 2 Cents
 

"I'm learning" is not a good excuse for piracy. With all the open source projects out there I think you could learn all you needed to learn from them.

ALSO: The most important lesson you can learn is integrity. There are a lot of short cuts out there for people to take. But, as you are "learning" you will find that integrity means short cuts are not always your best choice in the long run.

Is it wrong to download a movie or an album you had no intention of buying in the first place, but since you had access to it you go it, and really don't use it that much?

Moral questions do not have solid answers because my morals are probably different than a lot of people in this world. I don't judge someone who downloads things that they normally wouldn't buy. However, if I download an album and like it, I tend to go buy it, and I also tend to go buy it on vinyl since I am a music nerd in a way.

If its something I don't really like, then I just forget about it. Or how about all those CDs that I used to have that have been lost, stolen, or broken. I already paid for them once, why should I pay for them again.

These are all questions that will have different answers from different people. Some people will say yes, others will say no, a majority will be indifferent.

Stealing is stealing, even if it is justified, it is still stealing. however, those anti piracy adds on dvds crack me up. You wouldn't steal a car would you? LMAO you can't compare stealing a car to downloading a dvd. Thats comparing apples and oranges in my mind. They're both fruits but they are both different so you really can't compare them.

thank you!!!

i mean i just dont feel bad about pirating software.
i would feel bad about like stealing someones guitar,
But i dont expect this forum thread to really go into a discussion on morals.

"Good Morals"
 

When it takes a huge amount of effort to justify your actions, it is usually an indication that you have some morals yourself that have triggered a consience...;)

what companys sould do is have it so the free version of flash publishes with a banner at the boddom that says
"MACROMEIDA FLASH TRIAL"
and the trial lasts forever.
so people can learn how to use the software, but if they want to be profseional they need to buy it.

that sounds really fair to me.

That's what you take out of the last two pages of clear, well thought out explanations to your original question?

It really cements the fact that you were only coming here to have a few people say "yeah, it's OK, even though it isn't legal" but didn't get that.

:rolleyes:

I can't speak for "us guys" but I would say that is 100% acceptable, and I can't think of any law broken.

Remember that "legal" or "illegal" still isn't proven in most of the contexts we are talking about. Shrink wrap license agreements have never been proven in court. They may be completely meaningless and non-binding.