WHAT THIS......http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Dodge-Super-8-Hemi.jpg

thats fugly.. infact no.... it pugfugly!


'only in America!' and it can stay there too!

Yup. agreed. For the most part the Americans don't have a clue how to design a good looking car. Or one that handles. Or is as reliable as it should be.

There are notable exceptions.

But ask yourself why Ford lost nearly $900m last year. Cos they make the f series trucks. Put the engine in a GT. boom. chevy and their new Z06. Fantastic. Faster than a ferrari 430, and $160000 cheaper (admittedly the ride comfort is similar to a horse and cart, but you can't have everything....)

Please America wake up before tens of thousands lose their jobs and icon of your great nation is lost forever.

cant help thinking your gonna get told off for 'Americanbashing' :D

but it is an interesting point.... Dont get me wrong... I know the UK Car producing market is no shining beacon of light..... but its interesting to see what is generally considered as 'good taste'....

Its funny... coz you rarely see American cars in Europe... but there are a hell of a lot of European cars in America...

odd though.... as a Brit, I really like German cars.

what a crazy mixed up world we live in!!

Industrial leadership is not forever: Cars got invented in Europe, mass production pioneered by Ford in America and these days both completely missed out on hybrid technology...

There's an economical absurdity in financing road infrastructure on tax money while railroads have to pay for their own infrastructure. This results in transportation choices which may make micro-economical sense for users and truck companies but do a lot of damage on the macro-economical level (more casualties, more pollution).

With the political systems in most industrialised countries having evolved into keepers of the status quo of corporate interest, there is not much hope this is going to change unless some kind of grassroots power-to-the-people thing happens.

And please, do not mis-understand this as some Europe-is-better-than-America ranting as it unfortunately happened to the big SUV-thread some time ago. The level of awareness for certain problems certainly differs from country to country, but the gravity of the crisis calls for global awareness and action rather than my-country-is-better-than-yours kindergarten-level bickering.

--
edit
marchutch, that was not directed at your post, but a general preemptive strike to avoid what happened in this thread:
http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=45638

Anyone who reads into my last post as America bashing has sorely missed the point. I love America as a country. I am 23, on a student budget, and have still been there 8 times, whenever finances allow.

I just do not wish to see an icon of America fade away. Detroit seems to be just starting to beat again, and now it and all the other car producing centres of the USA are going to go into terminal decline. Not because the big players in the domestic car industry are failing to learn from their mistakes (although this does seem to be a fairly common trait in America: OK so that was America bashing!) but because they are failing to learn from their rivals' success.

The Americans say that we Brits are bad at taking criticism....

Oh and incidentally, I can get high 50's mpg out of my HDi Peugeot 306 if I change gear before 2000rpm. Hybrids aren't anything special.

Ok I will be honest. I like cars. They are my escape vehicles for a quiet drive around the highway in moments of stress...but in trying to keep up my subversive ecological image here, I pray for the day of car-less societies with extensive networks of eco-efficiently run and technologically flawless PTS (public transport systems). You know, the ones with quiet 'whirr' sounds and impeccable female/male computer voices. And plus, no more cheeky oil-crazed presidents! :mad:

Initiatives:
http://www.worldcarfree.net/conference/

Do cars make us happy though?
http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/We..._car__59d.html


Still.... I'd love to roar down a country lane on a F430 Ferrari!!

America being such a big place we love our V8's. Americans also seem to like big cars. You don't see those in Europe because they don't fit well on your roads, or into you lifestyles. Generally Americans don't think much about driving long distances, they just do it. I really wish american car companies would build better looking more reliable cars, but they see to like to build the cheapest vehicles to maximize profit margin. Just my $.02.

Same reason that is literally killing GM; stifling payments to former workers and current useless workers due to pressures from the unions. If the unions don't stop making them bleed cash, they're just going to fold...and then what will be left for the unions to take?

For the American situation, see the situation in the UK a couple of decades ago. It's not the trade unions fault. It's down to mismanagement.

I’m sure there is room for different perceptions here. Perhaps we would be wise to remember Dan Quayle’s novel explanation of the US bank crisis:

"Bank failures are caused by depositors who don't deposit enough money to cover losses due to mismanagement."

GM is saddled with a $100 billion (Yes, with a B) pension plan. The import car companies are not. US car companies are forced to keep useless employees because of union regulations and agreements. The import companies are not.

You can't bleed cash from a company and then also expect it to compete with companies that don't have the same expenses.

Kaizen -- the philosophy of improvement and innovation
 

Hold on a minute! Many Japanese companies, including Japanese automobile producers, have for decades virtually had an unwritten "job for life" contract with their employees. That’s a far cry from the Western (or multinational) norm.

The Japanese idea shows compassion and duty, but it is also good business sense!

I find the idea of "useless workers" highly offensive -- it is anathema to me. Essentially, it reveals a consumerist attitude in owners/directors/board members towards what should be their greatest asset: their own employees. Worse: this lack of compassion is evidence of lack of innovation.

However, that consumerist attitude to people is not the only evidence of this. The unions do not explain the core woes of Ford or General Motors.

Two years ago I had the great pleasure of interviewing one of the Norwegian directors of Toyota. As you may know, Toyota consistently earns the highest consumer satisfaction scores. The reason, he explained to me, is their philosophy of Kaizen. Sometimes explained as "many steps leading to improvement". Another definition, which I prefer, is "to take it apart and put it back together in a better way." IT may refer to process, system, product or service. Thus Kaizen is also humility, a fluid approach...

In my opinion, Kaizen is the essence of innovation. Furthermore, it is a collective process in which everyone plays an essential role. But a prerequisite of results is to value and nurture the "human asset" -- which consists of real people.

"Useless workers" shows a lack of imagination in management.

I've seen them. People with a title and no job function. I've done consulting work for one of GM's largest plastics makers, and saw them surfing, playing, anything but working. Yet the job title can't be eliminated from the payroll, and they can't be told to do something "outside their job description." Conversely, under union rules, someone who is bored is NOT ALLOWED to do another person's job or help in any other way.

The anathema should be allowing people to sit around collecting pay for doing nothing.

The human assets need to be part of the process, not part of the problem. What I've seen of the union worker with my dad's company (military aerospace), my own work, and consulting, the American worker only blames management and doesn't want to be part of the solution. Union workers have an entitlement attitude, not one of responsibility.

Moving discussion
 

Carlos, I’m replying by PM -- that way Photek can have his thread focus on its original topic. :cool:

Or alternatively, start a new thread please. Because I find this debate quite useful and interesting. It is certainly relevant in terms of my studies, and would be interested in further debate.

I second that, pretty much everything from post #38 on might make a good thread on its own.

That way, we can keep the boys-will-be-boys part here and still have a more serious discussion on other aspects of automobile society.

no..... just keeping putting the world to rights on this thread...! :D


it makes my post look more popular than they really are! :cool:

You bet:

Arctic and Carlos:
I think it's an interesting debate to have, even if it goes way beyond "what car should I buy" more into the "what society would I like to live in".

There may be "abuse" of union power, whoever looking out for examples might want to look at the french "Syndicat du Livre" and how they hold french newspapers by the balls... However, that is not a valid argument to throw out the idea of trade unions as a necessary instrument to balance the power between workers and corporations.

Other cultures, such as the japanese are probably hard to understand unless you've experienced it or at least read a lot.
It's certainly quite effective and making efforts towards customer satisfaction by better quality and great service sure is a simple way to success open to everyone who cares.
However, I'm not really a huge fan because this kind of "group above self"-ideology carries an unfortunate potential for extremely nefarious dictatorship. All it takes are a few completely out-of-control leaders and armies of people with the Eichmann-excuse. All of it is recent-enough history to be still remembered.
Even if it may look messy, I like the french way of street protests and strikes whenever the government does evil things. Last example: Vivendi-Universal lobbying to take interesting provisions out of a copyright bill. Whatever the outcome, probably one of the largest, most significant debates on the subject I know of.
There is nothing more valuable than an informed citizen ready to stand up for his opinions to confront corporate interests trying to pass laws assuring the status quo in favor of corporations with broken business models.

I couldn't be bothered to read all the posts, but Photek if you are still looking for a new car you have to get a Lotus Exige S. Or the slightly ugly looking europa.

I know you don't want a british car but they are great and I can honestly say that not all people in norfolk are turnip farmers, just most of them. My brother went round there lotus track near norwich last year i an elise and it looked great fun!

If you want a four seater you could always go for a proton, they may not be the best looking cars or the quickest or the best, but they are cheap reliable, own lotus and sponser norwich city (not shirt sponsers any more however).