I must say that I read MacOSXhints.com primarily as a technical resource, not only when I have a problem, but when I see one I don't know the solution to myself. I've learned a lot here, and if the Coat Room was closed, as Hayne suggests, I'd still read the 'hints rss feed, and come for a look see regularly.

Having said that, however, I must say I do read the Coat Room regularly and often enjoy (and even join) debates here, and I notice Hayne does too. I think the moderators are extremely reasonable about what they accept and reject and have no difficulty at all with the notion that they can accept or reject whatever they please without recourse and with prejudice for that matter.

To me, this is like the Op Ed page of a newspaper. You can write all the letters you like, and some editor whom you don't know and who doesn't justify the decision in any way, will toss your brilliant analysis of a current situation in the trash.

I think we should view the Coat Room as a privilege. We can argue here provided we don't exceed certain bounds, and we don't always understand just exactly where those bounds are. Great - we can still argue here. If you don't like that, start your own blog where you can say whatever you like and when your favorite thread is savaged here, pick it up there. Maybe someone will read it.

.
First and foremost: MacOSXHints and especially the Forum are really great! The helpfulness that I have encountered here, time and again, is an exemplary case of true generosity!

And for that we can thank:

• Rob, who started it all!
• The moderators who give us so much of their time!
• Every Forum member who participates in a positive spirit

The Coat Room is one of the most valuable areas of the Forum. In my opinion it is vital -- in the double meaning of the word.

Gavin’s post and this thread caused me to reflect: Why do I enjoy the Forum so much, and why do I find it valuable? Why do I feel it is a good place to be?

Well, obviously because of the generosity and knowledge that suffuses the entire Forum – with its 50 000+ threads and more than a quarter of a million posts.

Because of the high content level and comparatively little chatter. (Generally if someone has nothing to say, they shut up.) ;)

These qualities also make the Forum a true community -- and I am proud and feel privileged to be a member.

The Coat Room is the liveliest place where these qualities come to the fore.

I particularly value the discussions where we can step back and look at the larger picture in a technological age. Examples:

• Where is our technology headed in the longer term.
• What inventions and devices would we like to see?
• What do Apple’s recent strategic choices mean -- and how do they change the ball game.
• The practical and philosophical aspects of DRM/DMCA
• Including the Supreme Court ruling on file sharing -- a fine thread started (and to my surprise closed) by Phil
• Filtering technology
• The responsibility and behaviour of software houses in f.ex. China
• Alternative distribution of digital content (ref. the thread by Voldenuit)

What has pleased me immensely is that we can clearly discuss such matters in an intelligent and civil manner! All in all, there are extremely few exceptions.

I think it would be a tragedy to close the door on this.


With best regards,
ArcticStones
.

That's not an option for moderators.
There is never going to be a completely unmoderated section on this site.

Our deep respect for the moderators!
 

.
I don’t think Gavin’s thoughts are intended as complaint, nor do I read anything written by anybody else in that light.

What I do see is a couple of friendly and very mild suggestions, and questions, with regards to moderation. And I think those are valid. The very fact that those suggestions and questions are uttered is an expression of deep respect for each and every moderator of the Forum!

In fact everyone goes out of their way to express deep and sincere appreciation of the Forum and the way that it is (by and large) moderated. Myself included. Keep up the good work! :)


With best regards,
ArcticStones

.

Olav also points out the opportunity to talk to people all over the world who share at least one common intellectual interest. It's not like I could go on Myspace.com or a similar place and find intelligent adults to talk to. It is only through professional sites like this that such opportunities can be found. Sometimes it's nice to talk about more than just the computers.

I've read each person's post in this thread and find therm all to be making valid points (well except maybe my second one, but I do apologize for that one). As stated a few times, tech does indeed go way beyond just the technical aspect of fixing a computer or informing the person as to what needs to be done. Its also about people helping people out, generously using they free time to communicate to others what knowledge they have and to ask for help without jugement when needed. Thats the great part about the hints forums here and the main reason I joined and po0sted so often... Its a nice friendly space with few rules (not too strick either) and where most people actually naturally respect one another, from the newcomer to the admins and all other users. Also, as stated by CAlvarez, its nice to see a site where people are mostly professionnals or just have a nack for tech and wish to share.
So to recap, my opinion is that the forums are quite nicely run as they are moderated with caution and do let people voice their opinions in a decent and polite manner.

Well said. I would have to agree.

When we first launched the forum site, many many moons ago now, the Coat Room was probably the one area we debated the longest. In our prior experience, we'd all seen what a poorly run general discussion area can become.

However, we also know that sometimes, people just like somewhere they can blow off steam and chat about almost anything. We weighed the pros and cons closely, and decided we would add a Coat Room, but that we'd do our best to prevent the kinds of behaviors we'd seen on other sites.

That meant a closely moderated Coat Room, with relatively well defined rules. That also means we can't just choose to "not visit" and hope everyone's getting along. Instead, the opposite is true -- the Coat Room requires much more moderation time and energy than does any other topic here. Why? Because if we didn't visit and just came into the room when someone yelled "Help me, I'm being viciously attacked in this thread!" then we'd always be running to put out fires. Better to stay on top of such things rather than letting them fester then explode.

Personally, I'd probably prefer that the Coat Room simply vanish. There are many better places than here to discuss the non-Mac, non-OS X things in our lives. With that said, I'm not going to just arbitrarily do that, as I know many of you enjoy the Coat Room.

Instead, we're going to discuss the issue among the moderators, and perhaps see if we can come up with some clearer rules, and make sure that everyone who participates in the Coat Room understands those rules. As has been pointed out, such rules already exist, but maybe we can make things a bit more black and white for everyone involved.

I welcome any thoughts from others (beyond what's been said here, which I've now read) on how we may proceed. The objectives are to keep the Coat Room, but to reduce the difficulty of the moderators' jobs, and make the decision making process on open/close clearer to all involved.

-rob.

I've had the Coat Room as one of my "charges" since the beginning and have tried to take this responsibility seriously. Given the nature of my work, I haven't always had the time to read every post, but I have made an effort to visit this forum once or twice daily and to at least skim the topics.

We decided early on that we did not want to have discussions on politics and religion, as these topics often flame out of control quickly. Some of you don't think technology can be discussed without bringing politics in, and I agree the two are related. But it's not easy to keep the balance, here, and I don't always know where to draw the "line" when it comes to making a call. Cheap shots at politicians (of any political party) don't seem to have anything to do with the technology/politics tension some of you are bringing up. I'll come down on that all day long as there's no justification for it.

Recently I closed a thread about hunting tigers that seemed to me to be deteriorating on several fronts (read it and see). That was not a topic of much relevance to Mac/Apple, so with the bickering that was emerging, I saw no reason to allow that to continue. If that's what precipitated this present thread, then I make no apologies for doing so. If there are other issues/incidents, however, then it would be good to know. I've gotten a few PMs from some of you along the way, and it's been helpful. Like I said, I don't always know where to draw the line in some of these discussions, but have gone with the best lights I had.

Phil

two cents from a user:

I like the macosxhints.com site a great deal. Though, I do not post much, or often. This usually because someone smarter than myself has allready solved the problem. What keeps me coming back are the main page with all the hints, and forum. I bring up the page and click the new posts button, and read down the list to see if any of the post titles are interesting, then read away. I do not believe I have ever visited the coat room, and it is probably my loss, but I would hate to see this site's forum devolve into something like the one at macnn.com. It seems to me their forum has become all politics, and all religion, and hardly any mac stuff.

Just two cents from me.

Nicanor

A suggestion on the Coat Room
 

Rob,

I’ll take you up on that. :)

In my opinion, the closure of the Coat Room, or a serious curtailment of the topics discussed therein, would constitute a serious loss to the entire community. I think that would be terribly misguided -- and I beg you not to go there!!!

A few thoughts:

Many of us notice to how great a degree the Forum is self-moderating. The vast majority of posters have very high standards in regards to the respect we need to show each other -- and offenders are quickly reprimanded.

May I suggest that this natural dynamic be put to good use? For the benefit of the mods and the community In fact, were one to do so -- mind you, complementing the good judgement of the moderators, not replacing it -- then we could all relax a whole lot more.

The number of "trolls" or serious offenders is minimal. It would be tragic if we all have to pay such a terrible price for that.

* * *

The Coat Room is a special place, and participation therein is a privilege. It should be possible to ban someone (temporarily or permanently) from just the Coat Room.


With best regards,
ArcticStones

.

On another forum I mod, there's a "report a post" button that users can employ if things get really out of hand. That eases moderation since the mods don't have to actively look for problems as much.

I guess another question I have is...what is the purpose of the tight control? Is it to avoid offending users and driving them away?

See the exclamation point in the triangle, below everyone's name? :)

-rob.

Never noticed it before. But the point wasn't whether we have one here or not, the point I was making was that it's an option to allow the community to moderate itself. Personally I'd never, EVER report a post or ask to have a thread or post modded, so that's probably why I never noticed the feature.

I am very happy to see how this thread went.
There's really no point to review the justification why one or another thread got closed in the past to start some kind of witch-hunt and point fingers.

A couple of users said:
We like the free discussion of opinions here and would like more of it.

And instead of feeling attacked and posting some if-you-don't-love-us-get-lost/create-a-blog kind of answer, we see nuanced discussion among the mods how to take the wishes expressed into account.

As much as I can understand the fear previous experience created years ago, I believe that the high signal to noise ratio we see in the forums today is indeed a result of good moderation.
Simply allowing to let discussions continue even if they go beyond some mods personal conviction is the only wish respectfully expressed here.
As long as an animated debate on a controversial subject remains based on arguments, it is interesting and worthwhile having.

Lets all try our best to keep intelligent discussion alive, this thread is one example among many that it is possible.

I find that this thread is a good general example of how most discussions happen... Nice decent, polite and every one can express their opinion. It shows as a few people have stated in their posts (ArcticStone mentionned it most clearly) that most people here are serious and take the forums seriously, not as a personnal opinion site.

Moderation and "tight control" are not the same, in my view. Moderation is largely about upholding the designated "rules of the road" for a particular forum. Usually, this means reminding people of what they are. When these are not honored after a warning or two, the thread gets closed. In the case of trolls who habitually agitate for contention, it means banning them, at least from the forum they are abusing.

I strongly oppose a "free-for-all" format, especially re. politics and religion, as it can easily lead to ill-will among members. This would undercut the helpful, supportive atmosphere we hope to maintain, here. Just not worth it, imo.

The question remains: What is the purpose?

Following the rules because they are rules is not a purpose. I'd like to know the reason for the rules. I have an assumption, but if it's wrong, then anything I may say in this discussion may be irrelevant.

I thought Phil stated it rather clearly: As I read that, the overall intent is to allow disagreement without rancour, and specifically banning known-to-be-contentious content based on personal values rather than facts. This doesn't prevent opinion, because we have differing value systems with respect to risk to our systems for example, but it does prevent opinion based on religious belief or political slant.

Nova Scotian put it well. I'll add that assumptions are not the same as rules; they're more pre-conceptions about what/how you think things are. Rules (in this case) are behavioral guidelines which have a reference to the values that the board owners decided we wanted to see upheld here.

Some of what's being suggested, here, seems to be that we eliminate our forum rules/guidelines, the enforcement of which is about the only reason you need moderators. I've been involved on those forums, and it's seemed to me that the trolls and bullies take over after awhile. Those of us (Rob, Craig, John and I) who founded this board had been together on one such for awhile, and had witnessed and experienced first-hand how abusive and damaging that could be. So we decided to provide an alternative for the Mac community, and I think so far we've been successful, in large part because of the peer-to-peer moderation that's gone on at times.