g5 internal disk issues?
 

Hello
I am working on a backup system for a powermac g5. I want to put a second internal disk in it to set it up as a raid. this shold increase drive speed and keep an instantly updated cooy on the second disk. My boss like this idea, but a day later, he talked to a friend of his, who said that he had been having alot of problems doing the same thing inhis g5, something about incompatible connectors, and instability due to increased heat. I know I could just buy the right drives, so I'm not too worried about incompatibility, but heat issues could be a problem

ANyone had any expierience with this? and, I'm always open to suggestions as to what the ultimate backup system would be.

Not for raid, but for other backup purposes, I find invaluable a second internal SATA hard drive in my Dual G5 2.0.

I use it primarily for maintaining a bootable clone of my primary SATA drive's volumes with Retrospect 6's Duplicate feature. I also have set aside a partition of the secondary SATA HD for maintaining a Retro Backup of my data volume. It works at lightning speed for cloning a volume or creating a backup set.

It's also might handy to be able to boot the secondary drive when you need to launch Disk Utility, DiskWarrior 3.x.x or TechTool Pro 4.x.x for certain diagnostics or repairs on the primary hard drive's boot volume.

I also rotate a couple external FW hard drives on which I maintain duplicates of my primary hard drive volumes.

Respectfully, Norm

It sounds like your friend was making some pretty basic mistakes. :\ To add a second drive to a PMG5, you go to the store and buy the Serial ATA (SATA) drive of your choice, put it in, and connect the two cables. That's it.

There's something useful, a mantra if you will, that you should repeat to yourself several times: "RAID is not backup." This is a common misconception. RAID helps avoid downtime and data loss due to drive failures, and it can be useful for aggregating storage capacity into large volumes. That is all (though it's a lot). Backing up your data generally requires archiving it to protect it from alteration. That means you take the data completely offline so it's no longer connected to a computer. It may even mean taking it offsite so that a catastrophe in one place doesn't mean your data is lost. RAID does neither of these things for you.

Using RAID 1 (mirroring) in the manner you suggest is a nice idea for increasing your uptime. With mirroring, it's important to use two identical mechanisms so that their performance can by sychronized. Otherwise you can take a big performance hit.

Apple's software RAID stinks. Apple's OS X Server email list is full of people who have been unable to get their RAID sets back to normal status after a drive failure. Check out SoftRAID for better reliability.

how identical is identical? I mean, This still has the 250 gb drive it came with. Would any old 250 gb SATA drive be ok? how about the with the same speeds and cache? and i assume that even withnonidentical drives, the performace is still better than with a single disk, right?

First of all, RAID 1 can't produce increases in write speed. If the two disks are exactly identical, meaning the spindles and drive heads can be sychronized, you will get basically 100% of a single disk's write speed. But it's impossible to get more, because you have to write all the data to every disk. I presume that if you have two similar drives you won't see drastic reductions in performance, but I haven't ever experimented.

When it comes to read speed, you could get an increase if your controller is able to distribute reads between the drives. I don't know if Apple's software RAID does this. On the other hand, software RAID adds CPU overhead, so there's a bit of a counterbalance. I haven't experimented with software mirroring enough to really get a sense of the performance. I doubt you'll experience anything truly wonderful.

BTW, back to your original question about backup: the best backup method really depends on your needs. If you need to keep prior versions of files along with the current copies (or simply want to have a rotating set of backup media), using software like Retrospect or BRU with a tape drive is a typical method. You could do this with hard drives too, but they cost more and are more fragile. If you just want to make a complete up-to-date data set at regular intervals, cloning to an external hard drive is easy and fast.

I would like to see a total cost of ownership examination comparing backing up to tape vs. backing up to hard drive. I suspect that you would find that TCO of backing up to hard drives is far cheaper, not more expensive, as long as backups are somewhat widely spaced. (If all backups must be done daily and tapes are not re-used very often, then that would no longer be likely.)

Also, the fragility argument needs to be explained somewhat. A hard drive is certainly more fragile than a tape cartridge if you are dropping both onto a hard surface, for example. In other words, tape lasts longer if you abuse the backup medium.

But if you have a hard drive and a tape cartridge stored offsite for 5-10 years, which do you think will fail first? That is another aspect of fragility, and I suspect that the tape cartridge will be the likely first failure in most cases. As tapes get old, the glue that sticks the oxide particles to the backing tends to flake off and other assorted nastiness. The backing itself also gets brittle.

Trevor

I'm not intimately familiar with the numbers either way, though I assume the market has it correct. It's probably a matter of scale. For small data sets, hard disks are cheaper because the interfaces are so cheap (perhaps even just the Firewire port that's already in your computer). For larger data sets, there don't seem to be any hard disk-based replacements for devices like tape auto-loaders.

I'm not sure if anyone exactly addressed his question...
 

We have mirrored internal drives running in several G5 machines (of varying speeds) and heat does not seem to be a problem. RAID 1 will not increase your throughput, as has been observed. RAID 0 does, but is, in my opinion, a dangerous option. If you need increased throughput and maximum safety, RAID 5 is really called for, but that is a somewhat more expensive solution.

The drives should have the name capacity; they need not be identical drives. If they are non-identical in some ways, the smallest and slowest drive will be the bottleneck. If you have the option of getting identical drives, so much the better.

SoftRAID is indeed superior to OS X's internal RAID for a number of reasons and will permit you to use exteral drives as a part of your RAID if you choose. It isn't free, but doesn't break the bank, either.

Hardware RAID for mission-critical systems is probably preferable, but adds a great deal to the cost of the arrangement. Unless you are running an XServe, it probably isn't practical.

No one yet has found a really convenient and completely reliable backup prodedure using any medium. Tape backups with a good rotation scheme is probably still the most commonly used system, but backups and restores from a tape are very slow, and getting worse as data sets get larger and larger. But Giscard is probably right....the proper way to do a backup is to make sure you also have off-site storage of at least relatively FREQUENT backups in case of real catastrophes, like fires. Maintaining adequate backups for a medium-to-large system can turn into a nearly full-time job.

Joe VanZandt

thanks joe, I think we might get one internal hdd, and one external. the internal one to mirror the data, and the external to hold backup images. btw: is there a easy way to automate backup imaging from the boot disk?

Almost couldn't re-find this thread. I just had to sign up.

I too am sitting here pondering all sorts of HDrive Q's. Internal vs. external, backup or risk it. I work with FCP and video editing, I've been working on a PC and Adobe Premiere for 3 yrs now and just recently made the switch (What a headache it's been). I have now seen up close why Mac's have been looked down upon by PC people. I won't elaborate on that issue. We can type on specifics later. I'll get right to the point.

I'm in the market for an internal and external HDrive. The external, I think I'm going with the G Raid 500gb, it comes recomended by a few of my peers and Mac gives it a great review.
My problem is deciding on an internal drive. I have a PPC G5 d 2.7 with the curious WDC WD2500JD-41HBC0. Curious because if Mac's are for the DESIGNER then why is there a WD in my MAC??!! Is WD the new benchmark?? I read how this WD drive is "Ideal for High-performance family and business computing. These drives easily handle photo editing and data-intensive multimedia applications. For even higher performance, consider WD Caviar SE16 SATA hard drives. (Would I need to replace my existing 250gb w 1 of these if I wanted to purchase the SE16?

Of course I have other external HD's but I need suggestions on the internal HD. I read in the previous thread, that we should match the drives as best we can. At least have them at the same size in gb's. Is this true, because I would really like to put a 500gb in there. I need all the space I can get!!!

BTW sorry so lengthy, it's my 1st post. I'll make an attempt to keep it brief in the future.

Thanks 2 All

Who is Mac?

1. Macs are not just for designers. There may be some people who *think* that, but they are wrong.
2. Any particular brand of hard drives might be used in Macs (or any other computer). Decisions such as this are made based on cost and other factors such as size, not on perceived market for a drive brand. Most people are not even aware of the brand of hard drive that is used in their computer.

If you want to use another specific brand of hard drive because of any real or imagined superiority, then by all means replace the drive with another one. There ARE differences in speed, and over a large sample there are differences in quality and reliability.

3. Not really, as mentioned a brand of hard drive is not chosen to ship in your computer because it is the benchmark. If you do want the benchmark, you can look into the Western Digital Raptor 10,000 RPM drives, connected to a SATA card.

http://barefeats.com/image06/h68-kp.gif
Copyright 2006 Rob Art Morgan

Or, for more complete information from which to make a decision, check out pages such as Bare Feats or Accelerate Your Mac! which often have comparisons of drive speeds.

I thought you were going to use the G Raid external? Can you be much more detailed about exactly what you are trying to do? And where you are planning on putting what drives?

Trevor

mopeez said

" I have now seen up close why Mac's have been looked down upon by PC people"

then don't say anything at all if you are not prepared to back up this unjustified statement. why anyone would help you after you make a flippant comment like this on a mac board is beyond me.

if the WD drive is not up to snuff for you, just slide it out and stick in a pair of identical drives of your choice.

Thx 4 Quick Reponse+Chart
 

Trevor,
I edit SD Mini DV on FCP. I want a dependable, fast, external + internal drive. The bigger the better.
Cost issue:
Ok I've alloted $500 for the external G Raid 500gb because I need a big external drive for mobility purposes.
$350 for the internal drive, but I don't want the internal drives to conflict with each other, based on size and other factors.

Oh and Mac is a reference to my buddy Mac O'Colorwheelrahan...

I meant Apple sorry...so sensitive we are.

Thanks for the "check out pages such as Bare Feats or Accelerate Your Mac! which often have comparisons of drive speeds."

kansa,

Like I said I am new to the APPLE Community, I'd prefer not to take out the drive that they sell the tower with but a replacement is of course an option.

As for your pet dolphin Mr. Flippant Comment, I'll give you 2 small examples of my PC snobbery.

1. Why isn't the date and day shown next to the time on the menu bar? I know now it can be done through a Terminal command. Now in the PC world a move the cursor over the time and the day+time pop right up.

2. In FCP you can't move a marker backwards, only forewards. Is this a joke?? Sorry to say no. So when you drop a marker in the Timeline, if you want to move it back you have to delete it, then make a new one. Compared to Adobe Premiere, you have the freedom to move markers where you want.

Hey I know the world isn't perfect but I hope this isn't beyond you or your pet mammal.

Thanks for a quick response to both of you.

Precision of language is always appreciated in forums.

And as well as being precise, please try to be more civil in your posts on these forums. Insults will not be tolerated. Being flippant in a response is getting close to being insulting.
The best thing to do when entering a new community is to speak softly and to listen more than you speak.

You will find that lots of things are different on the Mac than on Windows. You will need to adapt.

I have no idea why FCP doesn't allow markers to be moved backwards. There is likely a very good reason for this, not merely a sorry-we-didn't-get-around-to-implementing-that. Maybe ask on a FCP-specific forum like those at www.2-pop.com

For most of us, it isn't a big bother to click on the menu bar clock to find out the date in the relatively rare occasions when we need to find this out.
Do note that the menu bar is quite different from the Windows task bar. Having mouse-over actions wouldn't be appropriate in the menu bar.

OK, so you're not planning on striping the two internal drives? Then there would be no conflict between the existing drive and the second internal drive. Just plug a new SATA drive into the space that is ready for it. One caveat--don't buy a SATA drive with SSC enabled, or you will have to disable it, which is not a particularly easy process.

Sensitive? If I was being sensitive, it wouldn't be about that. However, you were using the term "Mac" in a way which indicates you are talking about a person or entity. I'm not aware of any universally understood person or entity with that name, so I asked.

Trevor

Ok No Problem
 

U r rite i shoulda used mo precise language. I'll make sure 2 do that in the future.

But in fairness, the guy brought up that old TV show about the dolphin so I assumed he was into that sort of thing.

Trevor,

I have never striped my HD's before. Does that mean that they act as 1 drive instead of 2 seperate ones?

I'm not familiar with SSC, so I guess when I'm shopping for a HD I'll just make sure it doesn't have it. Is that right?

If I do purchase the 500gb internal WD drive it would probably be the "WD Caviar® SE16 7200 RPM next-generation SATA hard drives feature 16 MB cache for lightning-fast performance, cool and quiet operation and up to 500 GB of storage for capacity-hungry applications."
Will the 16 MB cache conflict with my 8 MB cache, meaning will it hinder my performance?


Thanks again to all of you for your help, u guys r fast and smart.

Yes, striped drives act as 1 drive instead of 2 separate ones. A striped set of drives also give you more throughput than a single drive. The downside is significant, though--you will really want to be especially diligent about backing up daily, since striping will double the failure rate of your drives--if either one fails, the set fails and you lose your data.

If it were me in your position, I would NOT stripe the boot drive, although I would seriously consider striping additional non-boot drives if I had a good backup practice in place.

SSC is 'Spread Spectrum Clocking' (or something close to that). The purpose of it is to reduce radiated EMI--it has extremely minimal effect on speed. SSC is incompatible with your PowerMac G5's built-in SATA subsystem. I'm not aware of WD Caviar drives having SSC enabled, but you'd have to check with the drive reseller--I can't keep track of every model detail. The brand of drive that is most often mentioned as shipping with SSC enabled and causing problems in a PowerMac G5 is Seagate. (Note that this is not to denigrate Seagate in any way.)

No, the 16MB cache will not conflict at all with the 8 MB cache in the other drive. No worries about that at all.

Trevor

Thx Again
 

So this is probably what I will do:

Internal: 500 GB, 7200 RPM, 16 MB Cache
WD5000KS

External:
G-RAID - High Performance FireWire 800 Storage is Here Now!
G-RAID from G-Tech is designed from the ground up to support the latest professional video editing systems. Since it was created to support the rigorous demands of broadcast video, G-RAID is the perfect companion product for DVD authoring, 2D/3D animation, audio editing and for system backup. In addition, G-RAID is the ideal place to store your digital photos, MP3s and other important files that you can’t be without. Don’t trust your important data to anything less than G-RAID! 500gb.

If you approve of this let me know.

Thanks again for all of your help, you r making an up and coming DV guy very happy.

Oh by the way in case ur wondering, I use a Panasonic AG DVX 100 and I capture video in the 24p adv mode. This might make sense or not, but just telling you a lil more about my set up.

That looks like a good choice for the internal drive.

As far as the G-RAID, that looks acceptable, but if it were me, I'd spend just a little bit more and get an external SATA (eSATA) card and external SATA RAID case. For example, you could get the G-SATA from the same folks who make the G-RAID: http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-SATA.cfm . Then you would also need the eSATA card, such as ones sold by Sonnet and Highpoint. (Your PowerMac has internal SATA but not external.)

Trevor

G-Sata
 

I just read about the G-SATA drives you reccomended. It sounds and looks like the right move, but is it practical?
The reason I was considering the G-Raid is because it has FW400/800, which is the transfer type my system has been based on. Would most other computers have the appropiate eSATA card?

Also could you give me some pros/cons as to why I should go with the eSATA that aren't on the weblink you sent me? I see the data transfer rate is great, but to make a move like this, I would like to be fully prepared and have multiple reasons for the crossover. I have been having a love affair with Firewire for years now.

My g5 has the space to install a sSATA port? Which card from the link you sent me would you suggest?

Thx again Trevor

Western Digital Drives
 

hello
I just read this thread with some dread about the WD5000KS Mopeez wants to install i was in the same place a few months back and bought a WD4000KD and happliy installed it worked for a while and i got random system lock ups and my photoshop would quit unexpectantly the drive is not compatilbe with my Early 2005 2.7 dual Check wertern digitals web site for Comapable drives or just buy a seagate 7002.8 which is what i did - i hope my post is not to late