Driver's License at Apple Store
 

I went to the Apple Store today to pick up Halo (friend wanted to play on-line) and paid with a debit card. When I handed the salesperson my debit card (he didn't let me swipe it) he also asked for my driver's license. I could be wrong, but I remember buying much more expensive stuff than a $50 game and not being asked to prove my identity. In fact, I don't think any store's ever asked for my driver's license when paying for anything. What's up with that? Does the Apple store profile people? I didn't really think about it until I left, otherwise I would have asked before even giving it to him . . .

I get it randomly. I think they just forget sometimes. I generally refuse to give ID for any purchase, and so far nobody has refused my money (card).

There should be ID photos on ALL debet/credit cards
 

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My Norwegian debet card (VISA) has a photo ID on the back, and so did my former credit card (also VISA).

Last time I used it in the States, people at stores were flabbergasted.

What really astonishes me, considering the extent of ID theft and credit card abuse, is that photo ID is not standard on the debet/credit cards themselves – as far as I know at least not in the US.

Best regards,
ArcticStones


PS. When I received my new credit card from the bank a few months ago, there was no longer any photo on the back. My complaint did little good; it had now been dropped, probably to save a few dimes. I think that is misguided.

I could be wrong,
But I would have thought it would have made little difference
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From what I understand. most card fraud is done by cloned cards, or over the internet.

Both leave Photo id on its own as useless.

Chip and Pin seems to be cutting down card fraud when it comes to clones,
and stolen cards

As for the internet. Cahoot (online bank) seem to have the right idea.
(not that you can use the SW on a mac)
They let you create virtual credit cards (for set amounts) to use over the internet/phone, so never giving out you real card details.

chip and pin along with virtual cards (if all the banks used them) would help cut down on clones and access to you credit card Details.

Not sure you can stop someone using your stolen card over the net.
But I would expect this to be a lower percentage any way.

The photo ID is completely useless. You can print yourself one on the printers right in the Apple store. When I fly I always use a home-printed ID, just because I want to prove how pointless that whole system is.

As far as saving money on the photo, that's really the point of the photo to start with. If your card is abused, it's the bank's problem, not yours (at least in the US). So if they lose more money by putting photos on all the cards compared to fraud loss, then why use the photos?

The new encoded mag stripes such as the ones on Amex cards are another good deterrent. Unfortunately it's taking a while to switch over to them. Amex also uses zip code authentication, which helps a bit. Many stores now ask for that (including the Apple store).

A lot of places will ask for ID when you're buying something, alchohol, educational software, yadda yadda, but then again that has nothing to do with this situation...

But, what has me confused is why they carded you on a debit card. The whole point of a debit card is that you have a PIN, so you don't have to show an ID.

I've had a few stores here card me for a debit card as well.

What I really liked was when people started to card you when using your check card and Visa was still running all those commercials about using a check card because you didn't need ID like you did with a check.

I've never been asked for a debit card. About twice a month I get asked when using a credit card, but I just say "no."

I've had stores ask for my card and then they flip it over and enter that 3 digit security number on the back.

That gave me a good out-loud laugh :)

Just out of interest, CAlvarez, why do you refuse to give a form of ID, driver's license or otherwise? Is it to make the statement that the other forms are irrelevant? I'm not dissenting, but just want to know.

I typically don't mind when asked, because they are being a little more cautious. It won't catch many of those who deal in that kind of fraud but it will catch the unimaginative. Afterall, while I won't pay directly for someone else's charge against my account, I do pay indirectly almost everywhere for fraud against everyone else's accounts.

What kind of document is this printed id? I am curious
 

Will you please elaborate on the home-printed ID? Is this a scanned image of your driver license or passport?

thx
RLC

It's a political issue that wouldn't be appropriate here, but basically I just don't want to be a part of any government ID schemes and I highly guard my privacy. That extends to anyone that asks for ID without reason.

Ron, it's a driver's license from a foreign country which I created in Corel. It's all valid data, so I can't be accused of forgery, but it's something I created completely by hand using information/images that are freely available on the internet.

I'm not sure how long of an answer I'm asking for here, and I'm trying to avoid a political debate as well, since it is something we're asked to avoid. But I really am wondering what "reason" or "valid reason" would be. I used to work retail, to go to the original example, and it always seemed that asking someone to prove they were accessing their own banking account was a perfect valid reason to ask for ID.

No, I think I'm going to have to put my two cents in. I think its wonderful that they asked for ID. Credit Card theft may not be the most prevalent form of theft, but why would I want to take any chances? I usually don't even sign my credit cards so that the people who scan it are forced to check my ID.

'Sides, if the government wanted to track me, they'd do it through the actual credit card (you know, purchase records and the like), since it is the thing being scanned. If you're worried about being traced, pay in cash.

Also, CAlverez, I would be careful discussing your little trick with Corel. Forgery is not reporting false information, it's making a copy of a document illegally. And since most countries require that they make their own official documents, what you are discussing is forgery (hence, the government also wouldn't approve of you making copies of monetary units and passing them off as official currency.) Understand, I'm not in favor of heavy surveillance, and if this was a political forum I would have a lot to say in that vein. But if you get caught, I don't think you'll like the consequences.

If every time I ever made a purchase at this store my ID was checked, along with every other customer, I probably wouldn't care (as much). What irks me is determining what made this guy decide I needed to have my ID checked. The message being sent is, "I don't trust you, even though I don't know you -- though I won't second-guess all these other strangers."

The privacy issues are an entirely different debate, for me anyway.

bedouin-- Understood. I can only speak for myself on this issue. The reason I asked some people and not others was a function of two things, both of which are stupid and unfortunate, but it might clear some things up. The first: If I actually remembered to do it (I'm very absent minded). The second: How busy I was. The bigger the line, the less likely I was to check because I felt really rushed. Plus, my memory gets worse as I get stressed...

In all the time I was there, I don't remember asking for ID for any other reason...except age, I guess. Yeah, and this was a pain too. We had to make sure that kids weren't using their parents credit cards (pretty easy to walk off with mom and pops card I guess). If they were they had to go to financial services and have their parents called, once the parents were contacted they would be okay to use it (assuming the parents said they could). Also, it wasn't a security thing, they didn't have to go to customer service, they could just as easily walk out. We just wanted to make sure they had their parents permission.

Those were my reasons for checking and not checking, hope that sheds a little light on the situation. And I will say this, I hope you weren't subject to any kind of profiling...yet another political topic best left alone.

I guess my Apple Store is a bit more conscientious as they have checked my ID every time I have purchased something there using a credit card. It doesn't bother me as other stores have checked my ID. I understand it is due to the rampant credit card theft, and not because I appear to be a thief.

I do refuse to give out my zip code on cash purchases and phone number on all purchases as that is used by retail stores for customer profiling, and I absolutely refuse to participate. I simply tell them it is private information. On a few occasions, the clerk will insist so I give out stupid info like a zip of 12345 or phone number of (123) 456-7890. It's funny how the clerks actually accept those numbers without even thinking! :D

Not going to get into the politics, but I'm not going to change what I do.

At retail, the ID solves nothing, so it's just stupid to ask for it. Not going to participate in anything stupid. I'll gladly give you the zip code though; I and the other 34,000 people in my zip code are ok with that. No chance of a phone number or address though.

Have to admit, I can respect that, even if I don't particularly agree. At least you're willing to take a stand.

One thing is some people seem to thing "Gee I am glad they are seeing if it is me tying to use the card." Fact is if the card is stolen and reported the card would be refused, and even if you haven't reported it yet generally you will not be responsible for charges that are fraudulent. The only possible reason I can see for looking at an ID is if there is no signature on the card...but even that is a stretch as ids are easily faked.

True... but only if you consider what you pay for directly. Indirectly, we all pay.

When someone uses a stolen card and gets away with it, the bank refuses the charges, and so it is the store that gets ripped off. The store then finds ways to make up that loss -- adding a bit of extra profit to all of their merchandise that we ALL end up paying. So we DO pay for those charges regardless of whether it was our card that was stolen and used or not. The same applies to shoplifting, etc. All retails stores have built-in charges into their prices to cover for these kinds of losses.

The only real way of knowing if there is any real savings by having the clerks at any store check the driver's licenses of their customers is to compile statistics on just how many fraudulent purchases they actually stop, add up all the money they prevent from being ripped off, and then compare THAT to how much time/money it costs the store to have the clerks actually DO the checks (time spent in meetings instructing clerks what to look for; accumulated amount of time spent with the clerks waiting on people to dig through wallets/purses for their ID when the clerks could have finished and made other sales with other customers; customer ill-will towards the company which may result in fewer future sales, etc.).

If they are saving more money by preventing fraudulent purchases than they are spending in the activity of checking IDs, then I'm all for it. On the other hand, if they are merely checking IDs because they think it's helping without any real data to back it up, then quit hassling me and let me be on my way.

Personally, I think the whole credit card system is screwed. They need a much more secure way of determining who is and who is not allowed to use a specific credit card. Until they come up with a truly secure way of handling this, I think anything a retail store does is pretty much futile.

I write "check my ID" on the back of all my credit cards. 75% of the time they actually do. The other 25%, I ask why they didn't.

We could all try being honest...

I personally like the debits that allow you to put in a pin number, and that's it. If you protect your pin, then you ought to be safe. If you don't, well who's to blame but yourself? I know, it's not that simple. And quite honestly, security never will be, because no matter what system we come up with to 'protect' ourselves, there will be some way around it.

The most secure way to pay, if you're interested, is to always cash out your checks, hide your excess money in a well locked vault when you get home, and then only use cash from that vault to pay for anything. That way you have no credit card or debit card to have stolen. And no one will ever bug you for your I.D. Of course, you can't do eCommerce anymore, but you'll be secure!

I don't know... I'm hoping for something more hi-tech such as retinal IDs. I suppose there will be a way around that, as well, but it would be a bit difficult to stand in front of a clerk and get away with putting a fake eye in front of the retinal screener! ;)

And even if it doesn't work, it's just more cool than credit cards and driver's licenses. I'm ready for something new and less boring. :D

The yearly loss due to credit card fraud amounts to $8 and some cents per person in the US. I'll send in my $8 every year to avoid being asked for ID, which isn't helping anything anyway.

The card companies have lots of ways to make the systems more secure. But those ways cost more than the losses, so why do it?

Are you serious? It's only $8 + pocket change a year per person? Well, that explains a lot.

You guys are talking averages. Sure it averages out to 8 dollars a person, but when your the person who's slammed for $200, it's not so fun.

I thought the most you could be personally held responsible for is $50? How would you be slammed for $200? Are some credit card companies now raising the limit?

This is specifically for credit cards and not debit cards. Last I looked, which I admit has a been a few years, if you got ripped off on a debit card, you lost the full amount. I have seen some advertisements come in the mail that now claim to protect you from that, but I haven't gone for it. I stay away from debit cards because of concerns of personal protection should my card be stolen. And I don't mean so much physically stolen as it is possible to reproduce the plastic card itself, and with only 4 digits in the pin, I just don't feel safe.

Besides, if you pay off your balance every month, credit cards are extremely convenient. For no extra costs whatsoever, you get to "float" yourself a loan for anywhere between a few days to over a month (lag time for bill processing), you only have to make one payment (per credit card) for multiple purchases, and you don't have to spend hours and hours balancing a checkbook. Ah, efficiency (aka, laziness! ;)). It's even better when you have a spouse who does all the tedious work of bill paying! :D

Those are 1993 numbers. A quick google on the web shows that number to be 20 times as large for 2003 (however there were 2 different sources for those year/dollars in fraud combinations, so there is room for error). At any rate, the $8 is far too low.

Also, remember that 'per/person' includes all members of your household, even children.

I once had a cashier at a supermarket demand that I sign the store's reciept for a purchase that I paid with a Debit card. I replied back saying it's not needed and pointed out that there wasn't even a spot printed out where I would sign. The cashier insisted so I signed "Bite Me" and walked away. She didn't even look at the signature.

I had that happen, but told her to "bite me" (or stronger words maybe) and walked out. I don't suffer fools quietly.

Oops, I'll have to do some research again, but my numbers are only a couple years old and came from a very good source that I trust. They were used in a research study on customer perceptions, and I thought they were over-inflated at the time. Of course, these numbers can be derived in many different ways, and we have all heard about lies and statistics.

In any case, someone somewhere calculated that the time lost to stronger measures is more than the loss to fraud. You say it only takes 8 seconds to produce ID. Multiply that by all the transactions every single day, and there's a huge cost.

Bostonians in a frenzy
 

Well, not everyone has equal insight into the difference between a Debit and a Credit Card.

Some years ago, I wanted to purchase a portabel radio/cassette player in a Boston electronics store, before catching my flight back to Norway. Their computer system was down, and the employees in the store were really in a frenzy. They simply didn’t know what to do.

Finally I offer to pay cash. "No, no, you can’t do that! The computer system and the cash register is down."
I didn’t want to leave with an unfinished errand, and I really couldn’t wait anymore. So I said: "Look, here is exact change. I do not need a receipt. I have a flight to catch and have to leave now. If that’s a problem, you’ll have to call a guard."

Fortunately no one stopped me as I headed out the door with my paid merchandise.

...but it does make me wonder what stores would do today if their computer system is down for any length of time.

:cool:

Yeah, I had to do that once too. A couple times there's been some moron at a convenience store paying with pennies or something, and I'll just give the cashier $2 for my $1.50-ish bottled drink and walk out. Life's short.

Buying chocolate for someone forced to be helpful
 

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I suppose I was terribly rude on this occasion. Just having parked my car, I needed to feed the meter, and went into a store to get some change. They fiftyish woman behind the counter absolutely refused.

"Well, I’ll take one of those," I said, fishing a nickel chocoloate out of a bowl on the counter. The woman behind it was fuming as she counted my change. "And this is for you," I said, pushing the little chocolate in her direction with a smile.

:)

Heh, very nice.

I was asked for ID at the Apple store today. I said no. They asked to see two other cards with the same name. I complied. Done.

So the lesson here is: Always steal the whole wallet.

Another one that someone did the other day was ask me the name on the card and the expiration date. Clever.

A Sam's Club card is defacto ID...

Further helping to prove how futile this all is. When I joined Sam's Club, I refused ID, as always. But I paid to join with a credit card, and they thought that was sufficient to prove my identity. Now twice this week I've been asked for ID, said I didn't have one (I don't carry it, ever), and they asked if I had something with a photo and my name. I showed my Sam's Club card, and they thought that was fine.

Moral of the story, get a Sam's membership as your first purchase with a credit card.

Or print up your own Sam's Club card, it's in black & white even.