PS3 v Xbox360 v Revolution v Everything Else
 

As requested, the poll. You have 31 days to get in on this, all answers will be made public, just so you know.

No more Sony!
 

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Boycott Sony!
That is my short and sweet answer after their triple DRM (Digital Restictions Management) fiasco. Sony has to make a lot of changes to regain my trust!

If I was going to purchase a gaming console, I would definitely opt for Nintendo Revolution. The hand-held controller seems really cool, but I haven’t had time to check it out yet.

- ArcticStones

Nintendo's controller is really cool. It's motion sensitive and everything. Who could ask for anything more?

Oh, and if anyone votes for that fifth option (you know, the other column), if they could say why they picked that one, that would be great.

How come polls don't go to the top when someone votes on them?

Boycott sony is also my new motto.

I don't see xbox briging anything new to the table aside form "SLIGHTLY" better graphics.

The Revolution looks like it might have some new tricks up it's sleeve. I am getting it. not to mention MARIO CAN'T FAIL!

One thing to understand about the updated graphics is that they might not look much better because of the fact that there's really not much else you can do for texturing right now. But, with all the processing power you have you can render far more polygons than before without chugging.

For example, I was playing an NHL game in a store today and noticed that each of the fans was individually rendered as a 3d model. That's nifty (it was especially fun to watch them jump back when I slammed someone into the boards.) I've also seen previews for games where there were thousands, tens of thousands of characters in a single scene.

Dreaming of a PS3 review...
 

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Wouldn’t it be a great public service if the product reviewers in key publications had the social conscience to write:

"The new PlayStation 3 is a fantastic new came console! Unfortunately, I cannot recommend that anyone purchase this product until Sony changes its corporate policy, and promises to respect data protection laws and the rights of it customers and users."

:cool:

How on earth would that be fair to Sony's Gaming division which is separate from Sony BMG?

Look, I don't mind that you all want to boycott Sony for making an error (and a pretty nasty one at that), but if you want to hurt Sony BMG then don't buy their music.

Boycotting the PS3 just hurts a bunch of hard working game manufacturers. Including third party game makers who have nothing to do with BMG or the whole entire music industry for that matter.

Again, I support the idea of showing public opposition to what Sony tried to do with the root kits, but take aim at what is causing the problem, Sony BMG.

It's a good point. On the other side, that still generates profits for the same parent company. Where does the line to corporate responsibility get drawn?

I personally would draw the line right behind the tech that came up with this idea and thought they should use it. It's worth pointing out that most of the suites involved in this probably had only a slight grasp on what they were doing. Probably some evil tech came up with the idea and merely told their boss that it would 'protect the music'. If someone can tell me that guy has been fired, or at least reprimanded and told not to do it again, then I'll be happy.

All Sony has to do to regain trust, is to:
1) fully apologise
2) release and widely distribut an effective rootkit removal software
3) publicly abandon its invasive DRM technology (which never worked anyways!)
4) ...not just "suspend it"!
5) promise never again to compromise the rights and data protection of its customers - neither gamers nor music lovers.

Sony has had every opportunity to do so since the s*** hit the fan. They have failed to do so. They have been unwilling to do so!

It is not a question of making an error - most people can forgive Sony for that. What is utterly unforgiveable is Sony’s (parent company) unwillingness to fundamentally change its arrogant, immoral, illegal and non-effective policy. That doesn’t cost them a dime.

And until they do so, I think a total boycott is called for.

With best regards,
ArcticStones

Waiting to hear from the suits...
 

Let’s assume you’re right (which I very much doubt). After the media storm that has been, certainly they can no longer claim ignorance. In fact, we’re still waiting to hear a convincing message from those suits.

That is what this is all about.

– ArcticStones

Sony is the company I want to hurt. Just because it was a part of sony doesn't mean I shoudln't hold them responsible. I will not be shedding any tears for video game companies. Any company that doesn't sell enough with Sony, can simply go to the box or the Nintendo. I don't shed tears for companies period. I only cry for exploited users. Sony deserves to suffer for this, and I will do my best.

Arctic has it right, their back-pedalling and excuse-making on this show that they're not interested in making things right. They either knew and did it on purpose, or don't want to admit they didn't know.

Either way, I've usually leaned away from all Sony products because they have sleazy business practices all around. This just seals it for me.

Learning from Johnson & Johnson Inc.
 

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It is worth noting the article in Wired Magazine http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0...ory_page_next1 by Dan Goodin. In addition to a very sober review of the scandal, he reviews the 1982 case of Johnson & Johnson.

To those old enough to remember, 7 people died after taking J&J’s Tylenol. That is obviously a much more serious lapse than Sony’s. What is worth noting, however, is how the leadership of Johnson & Johnson dealt with the crisis:

1) They fully admitted responsibility.
2) J&J recalled 31 million bottles of pain reliever. (Cost: approx. USD 100 million)
3) Their "suits" committed their company to an unheard of accountability and corporate transparency.
4) J&J launched an overwhelming and convincing public relations campaign.

The result? Lives saved, additional damage avoided. AND they convinced the public that their company could be trusted again.

This is not about mistakes. This is about what you do in the aftermath of mistakes.

Sony – is there anybody there?


– Arcticstones

Good example.

If nothing more, Sony has a long history of insanely egotistical behavior. Part of it is ingrained in Japanese culture, and explains why they continue to do anti-consumer things like create new media standards, some of which aren't even cross-compatible with their own products (take a look at the current fiasco with Sony notebooks that won't read new Memory Sticks, they said, "too bad"). But if they want to play in a world economy they need to get past Japanese cultural foibles and stop being so anti-consumer.

Fine fine and good, but I think my point is being missed entirely.

There are a lot of people who would be indirectly effected by your boycott. I think we to often get it in our mind that we're going to punish the corporate by not buying the product. But the first thing that will happen if they take a hit in sales is massive layoffs. You're killing the working man by doing this, and a lot of those people have nothing to do with this whole fiasco. Many of them might be will to apologize, you never know.

A note for Twelve Motion, have you seen the difference in SDK's between Xbox360 and PS3? There's a reason lots of developers stick to one system. And what about people who do mostly hardcore Japanese market games? Nindtendo isn't really an option right now, and the Xbox360 has no market hold yet. What do you tell these developers, tough nuts? Sorry you no longer have a job? Good luck finding a way to feed your family?

Again, I don't advocate what Sony did but I will stand my ground and say you need to find a way to hurt Sony that is not going to hurt hundreds of innocent employee's.

Waiting for Sir Howard Stringer
 

Zalister, I am not missing your point – and for the record I think your points are excellent!

Personally I have no desire whatsoever to punish Sony. If you think so, then you’re missing my point. However, I have every intention of making my modest contribution to forcing Sony to act in a responsible and reasonable manner.

I think legions of people are prepared exercise their right to not purchase Sony products. Unfortunately Sony’s deafening silence is a strong indication that this is the only language their "suits" understand.
My recommendation to game developers, and anyone else who may be hurt by a boycott, is to aim their frustration directly at Sony’s decision makers.

As I have indicated, Sony can take very simple steps to remedy the situation and regain everyone’s trust. Surely that is not asking too much? And surely it cannot be interpreted as irresponsible for people to exercise their right to not by Sony’s music, PlayStations or whatever – while we’re all waiting to Sony to show leadership?

Johnson & Johnson did it in a far worse situation. Anderson Consulting failed. It is not difficult to compile a far longer list of companies – recovered or fading into history.

In this situation, I am hoping to hear from Sony’s CEO. After all, Sir Howard Stringer is a Westerner, who should have a very clear understanding of the situation – and the dangers of Sony’s continued lack of convincing action to restore trust.


With best regards,
ArcticStones

In principle I have to say that I do agree with you. Something must be done to let Sony know that we would like open communication about what is going on internally to remedy the problem.

But I would contest that enough is being done. They are being sued by a few groups, Microsoft is making it's installation impossible, groups are springing up everywhere to help others remove the kits. And, finally, Sony is no longer using the root kit, having realized they made a mistake.

Now, if you want to boycott Sony, go right ahead. I think it's ineffectual (compared to suing and what not), and I think it's unfair to the employee's. But then again, where do you draw the line between unfair punishment and competitive advantage (many people are laid off simply because their product stinks). So, I really can't have a super firm position on whether or not a boycott is ethical.

But, for myself, I think enough has been done. So I hope we can agree to disagree on this. I completely respect the opinion of anyone who would choose to boycott Sony, but I hope I can be similarly respected for believing enough has been done.

Really though, I have no quarrel with any of you, you're all rather informed and intelligent, I just don't agree, that's all.

And as a last piece of evidence to show that this whole debate may have been pointless. Here is an article in which Sony apologizes and starts a program to recall all of the CD's. They say they won't do it again either.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/11/...eut/index.html

I think you'll find that all of your points have been addressed. Notice the date on this article.

But in the end I think this only serves to validate what all of us were saying. Sony finally realized what they had done. I think it's the class action lawsuits that did it, but I'm sure the rampant boycott threats posted all over the net had an effect in this as well. As well as a little education on the part of upper management.

Zalister, that's old news and your interpretation of it is what Sony intended.

You might want to read the other thread here

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=46807

if you haven't already to learn about the vulnerabilties opened by the uninstaller, the fact that the exchanged CDs contain DRM as well etc.

I think Sony really crossed the line and their further reactions made it pretty clear that they do not regret what they did, just the PR-problem.

And while this opens an even vaster, unrelated debate, I don't think that the boycott of a business involved in unlawful action can be a Bad Thing just because people might lose their jobs as a consequence.

Productivity having progressed like it did, it is simply no longer required that everybody works fulltime to produce all the necessary goods. As the vast majority of economies are still struggling to deal with that in an appropriate way, there is the misconception that getting fired is a Bad Thing. It might be perceived that way by the individual in question, but could happen for all sorts of reasons anyway.

Two things, one, thanks I hadn't seen the corelary, and that is dumb of sony to do that.

Second, government was created for the people, not the other way around. If you lose focus of the individual, then I think you've lost the point entirely. Staving off a boycott to consider the individuals who could lose their jobs is perfectly legitimate. Granted, they could lose their jobs for a plethora of reasons, but how does that give us the right to add one more?

But, and hear me out on this, it looks to me like Sony has simply put out a bad product. And, quite frankly, you can't blame me for putting the designer of the pinto out of work (just didn't like that car.) I think if my company was pulling that kind of crap I'd take it as sign of the times and move on by myself.

But, I'm yet to read that second article. So I'll have to wait until after that to comment on which of these two scenarios I think it is.

A few things, then I don't think I'll be posting much more on this debate.

One, I sat and thought about it for a while and decided I still think class action lawsuits and media blitzes (i.e. things that affect the mood of the population in general) are more effective than a boycott. But I wouldn't interfere with someone else's right to do it (I don't know everything after all.)

Second, that only leaves my ethical question on whether or not it's right to boycott. Honestly I'm having a hard time deciding. I do disagree with creating situations in which regular employee's will more likely be punished than the people actually responsible. But when that situation arises is hard to define. I would take the time to try and figure it out but two things stop me from doing this. One, I just don't have the resources to generate that kind of report. Two, this forum isn't really meant for philosophical treaties.

Lastly, I just wanted to reiterate (for the millionth time, and not because anyone has called me on this, but because I just don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.) I don't like root kits, shame on Sony.

But in the end I don't think a boycott will be effectual, and since more effective things are already in the works I don't feel guilty buying a PS3, thus my vote in the poll still goes to buying all three (I knew I could put this back on subject eventually :). )

And I think I will exit this whole messy debate at this point.

How is that possible? How can you hurt a company (IE, reduce its income) and not have it trickle down to the employees?

But like Arctic says, it's just a matter of not spending money which helps an "enemy" make profit. Each person defines what that means for himself. I won't spend money for products or at stores which have anti-American and/or anti-rights policies. It can be effective too; I've been part of two semi-organized boycotts, and in both cases the companies buckled. One of the companies is still in chapter 13.

Sorry, that means employees lost their jobs. But guess what, I spent that money elsewhere. Those companies had to hire more employees. In the end, it's a net effect.

i thought people were going to be comparing consoles in here, not disrepeting sony.

Sony's business practices have a large say in weather or not some people will buy thier console.

regardless... COMPARE THE SYSTEMS ALREADY!!

That might be a setting that could be checked (can't say for sure -- it's not in UBB.x or UBB Classic). So it takes a comment to kick the thread back up.

They're all the same. Buy one.

I think that Nintendo has finally lost it! I don't think I'd ever get used to a motion-sesitive controller. Do you realize how much I move my controller around when it's not motion-sensitive? As far as the XBox/PS3 is concerned, I can hardly wait for HALO3 to come out, so I'm already sold, although I haven't purcahsed the box yet. I never have been a fan of the Sony consoles. That's just my opinion.

Side note: And what is up with PSP movies? Why would you buy two formats of a movie (DVD & PSP)? If you want to watch a movie on the go, you'd be better off buying a nice portable DVD player and saving money in the long run on the movies.

Movies? On the go I would enjoy watching them on my 17" PowerBook. But I’m bothered by the zone protection system (whatever you call it) that Apple has been compelled to install. I think the DVD players in Macs should be zone free!

– ArcticStones

Wait wait wait... So you go out of your way to tell us all to start comparing the systems, and the first thing you say is you don't like Nintendo's new controller. You realize that without that little tid-bit CAlvarex might as well be right. The only thing that makes the Xbox360 and PS3 different are a few proprietary titles (like Halo and Final Fantasy).

If you want to compare systems and not games, I might suggest giving that controller a second look.

Motion sensing is the future! Why would you want to control your character by pushing buttons when you can put a few sensors on your body and just control them by moving in a natural manner?

Taking a boxing game on the Revolution for example. Put a controller in each hand and you can measure punch direction and velocity. Create a simple helmet with some sensors and you can dodge and weave. Put some buzzers in your controllers and helmet, now you can feel when you hit them and when you are tagged! And the best part is that you don't have to learn complex button schemes, you just do what would come naturally in a fight (and hope that naturally doesn't suck...)

There are a million possibilities for that thing, and that's why I would buy a revolution even without any killer apps.

For anyone who wanted to vote on this, and didn't have the chance yet, I wanted to bump this up just once (sorry). It closes in three days.