The problem is that all the alternatives to oil that you've mentioned have been around for a long time, but haven't been developed. Fuel cells for example, were used on the Appollo missions over thirty years ago! While the politicians and oil producers are partly to blame, in the end it comes down to the consumer. Products follow demand, not the reverse. Deliberately increasing demand for oil/gas is short sighted and counter productive, but that's what you do when you choose to drive around in a 5,000 pound gas guzzling road hog.

This thread has taken a few turns since I last looked!

I bet this explains everything. I confess I got my percentage proportion off the metric graph, which I now see has an error, on that website. I suppose 0.25% still isn't a lot ... but not quite a teaspoon-full either.

I should also point out that due to poor recollection, I have blended two memories in my head together with respect to my first post. While it is correct that acetone has been used in large proportions to improve peak power performance in racing engines, there was also research that showed its value as a miscible agent in fuel that had an alcohol oxygenate (or extender if you would prefer.)

Extenders are used in road cars to improve the knock performance of fuels (and slightly improve peak power.) Heavily water contaminated gasoline tends to have a water layer, which leaches the alcohol extender from the fuel, because alcohols dissolve more readily in water than in gasoline.

i.e it can be used as a mixing agent to 'recombine' the alcohol and gasoline in water contaminated fuel. R.Stone doesn't say what proportion is needed to achieve the result (* see below.) but the maximum permissible percentage of methanol is UK fuels is 3%, so it would probably be less than this value. So if an objective test showed that people could get a benefit from acetone (and I'm not convinced it would be in improved mpgs) they might get even better performance by finding out why their fuel contains so much water, and doing something about it. That water won't be helping their engine.

* but I think he is referencing a paper "Vehicle performance of gasoline containing oxygenates" by F.H.Palmer (1986) - full reference on request.

cwtnospam, did you take a look at how much ethanol is already being produced just in Kansas, and how many more plants are in the works. I don't see how you can say this alternative isn't being developed.

Also: Products follow demand, not the reverse. Deliberately increasing demand for oil/gas is short sighted and counter productive, but that's what you do when you choose to drive around in a 5,000 pound gas guzzling road hog.

Geez, this is the second post from you on this thread that is a borderline troll. . . unless you just plain old don't understand the connections between supply, demand and price. As long as oil is plentiful and cheap, automobiles will run on gasoline (or diesel). When/if other energy sources could be used for a competitive price, they'd catch on. It really is just that simple, and isn't especially unique to Americans. If gasoline cost a dollar a gallon in Europe, there'd be more people driving "guzzling road hogs."

Acetone will cost you more in the long term than what it will save in fuel costs. New fuel pump and fuel lines, let alone the rest

There's the secondary issue of the roads. While we enjoy large, easy to navigate roads in nearly all parts of the country, most of Europe is full of tiny roads where an R5 is a handful. Add the third issue of an effective 80% tax rate in England and other parts of Europe. With all that, people nearly have to drive small cars.

I did not say that it isn't being developed. I said that it hasn't been developed. We've had over thirty years notice that oil/gas would be a problem. The fact that these things are just now being developed is more than just disgraceful. It's also a major threat to our national security that's compounded by our insistence on finding new ways to waste fuel.

Yes, and how would you feel about Americans if you were one of them, knowing that the more fuel the Americans used, the less available and therefore the higher the price for you? This is why it hurts us politically throughout the world.

I don't follow, cwtnospam. Europeans are heavily taxed for their fuel but are angry at Americans for driving SUVs? The problem with gas prices in Europe isn't supply related, but tax-related.

Whatever . . . rejoice. Totally predictable.

Maybe you think they don't like us because they're unreasonable? They're angry at Americans for our conspicuous consumption. We appear to them the same way their Royalty did feasting while the peasants went hungry. When they see a fat American lumbering down the road in his Expedition, he might as well be saying "let them eat cake."

Reduces SUV sales are welcome, but that doesn't undo the damage. We need to make serious efforts at conservation while cutting out tax breaks for gas guzzlers and creating them for energy efficient means of transportation. Let's stop looking for magic pills.

Maybe you think they don't like us because they're unreasonable?

Jealous? ;)

Conscience, yes – jealous, no!
 

I think cwtnospam has a point about the prevalent view.

Even here in Norway, which is hardly anti-American, there is an engrained image of wasteful, arrogant yankees. That is not all caused by Texan policies, but the personal gas-guzzling choices astonishingly many Americans appear to be making. (Trust me, Phil, there is little jealousy.) Here in Europe, private consumption is not seen as merely a "private matter". Nor should it be!

Conscience and regulation need to go hand in hand. The market forces of supply and demand are fine and well, but those forces also lead to ...

Tempting though it may be, I will refrain from more pointed political comment. But, yes, there is anger. And I share it – although deep sadness is the stronger sentiment.

With best regards,
ArcticStones

.

Ahem . . . cough cough . . .

So you guys really think it's about Americans being more narrow-minded and selfish than Europeans?

:rolleyes:

We already know what's happened in the U.S. with the price of gasoline increasing, but, now, what do you think would happen if the price of gasoline dropped to $2.00 a gallon in Europe? Would SUV usage increase? You bet it would.

So the anger is that there isn't more government regulation and taxation of fuel in the U.S.? I know that's where some of you've been going with this, but that's a pretty complicated topic and is definitely getting into hard-core political discussion, which won't happen here.

In the meantime . . .
1. Don't use acetone in your gas tank.
2. Think globally.

:D

What ArcticStone was mentionning is not facts but people's perception of Americans. Even here in Quebec (don't know about other parts of Canada as I don't have time to make global surveys :D ) the perception people have of Americans (even though they do copy anythign amenrican still) is that they over-consume everything. The big bigger than they need, more than they need, etc... But as I said its only what people see from the outside take makes people see all Americans as "I'm buying it cause I can afford it" people... Same goes for people who think all americans are obese, lasy, power hungry, etc. Its all about waht peopel want to see... And they always want to see that either the choices they make are better than the neighbors, or they always thing that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (oposites...)

We are talking about perceptions – and about certain realities in which those perceptions are rooted.

Unfortunately, one of those realities is waste. Per capita consumption of non-renewable resources is a question of statistics, not opinion.

Is it narrow-minded and selfish to have an unreasonably high per capita consumption? Much of the world does, in fact, believe so.

Do I believe Europeans are better than Americans? Hardly!
I personally intend no such generalisations. (It’s easier and more valid to make generalisations about Norwegians.) The USA is one of the most heterogeneous nations on earth – that is one of your strengths.

;)

.

Well, fwiw, many Americans also have a few negative general perceptions of Canadians, Europeans and other groups, but it wouldn't do much good to go into some of those now, would it? :p So why bring that up here?

Is it narrow-minded and selfish to have an unreasonably high per capita consumption? Much of the world does, in fact, believe so.

O please, Arctic! :rolleyes: They'd all do exactly the same if the economic possibilities we enjoy here became available to them. Virtue, here, doesn't run very deep, I'm afraid. E.g., you and others still haven't replied to my point about whether more Europeans would drive SUVs if the price of gasoline there dropped to $2.00 a gallon. You know they would.

I'm not denying the fact of America's consumption, here, only the sanctimonious attitude about that which often comes with criticism of such . . . as though people in other countries drive small, fuel-efficient vehicles because they care about the environment, pollution, etc. I've been to a lot of those countries and have seen the pollution; there's nothing remotely close to America's environmental standards in most countries around the world.

Oil is indeed a non-renewable resource, but it's hardly an endangered one. And, as mentioned several times, there are alternatives being developed (many by U.S. R&D) that are already being used and will eventually become widespread.

Phil... Are you talking about the fact that you american guys (loll... generalisation is soo easy) think we talk sloooowww and pronouce the letter "z" differently ? :D

They might, but their governments have the good sense to tax it enough to keep the price from being that cheap and to pay for some of the damage it does. It's too bad our government can't be so responsible. Another $2/gallon in taxes and maybe we could sign the Kyoto Accords.

And no, I'm not a tree hugging environmentalist. I just believe that any industry should be required to clean up after itself. How can we require that of our children and not our business leaders?

I no genius, nor a political zealot...

But I do beilieve that per capita Americans waste more than any other group in the world... Actually, I think this has been borne out with statistics. As to the gas bit, petroleum is NOT an infinite resourse, and in light of looking towards a global future, alternate fuels will be the necessity, not the exception.

I have long marveled at our gas prices here in the US as opposed to other areas, and have had to laugh when I hear the complaints from fellow Americans... Most I hear complain have the hubris to expect the we deserve
low gas prices.

And just because "we can" doesn't make us right to do so. With great might comes great responsiblility... We have given the world a lot of ammunition to use against us....

The oil will run out someday, it is inevitable. When it does, I certainly hope I'm dead and gone... As it now, it doesn't look like the world is preparing for that day....

... Yeah, I'm nuts....:eek:

So the U. S. Senate would presumably be in on this, and would then proceed to reverse their earlier 98 - 0 vote against Kyoto? :rolleyes:


The oil will run out someday, it is inevitable. When it does, I certainly hope I'm dead and gone... As it now, it doesn't look like the world is preparing for that day...

Check out some of the links posted earlier on developments in alternative approaches.

Like I said, it's too bad our government can't be more responsible.

Or maybe they're listening to their constituents? I certainly campaigned against it, as did everyone I know.

I was just looking at some home-filling options for CNG cars with some friends who need a new car. Very interesting, these days for a couple thousand dollars you can set yourself up to use natural gas in your car with the convenience of filling up right in your own garage. There are a lot of tax breaks for it, making it nearly free in the long run.