Whoa. SLOW DOWN. This thread is traveling faster than it needs to. If those having crashes really want a solution, you're gonna have to take Hayne's advice. You have too many things inputting to ever find a solution.

"soferfam", since you were the first to post on this, try this:

1. Remove suspect software. You suggest "nothing unusual" but the fact that you mention "Norton" is a red flag to me. Unless you can find someone who has had a Mac virus in the last few years, I'd remove that problematic software forever.

2. Disconnect all USB hubs and devices. A crap USB hub can kernel a Mac, I know from personal experience.

I know those that are experiencing crashes hate to hear this, but the only way to test the actual Tiger OS is these steps:
1. disconnect all peripherals,
2. zero the drive,
3. install Tiger with a fresh install from the FULL OS DISK (not an upgrade)
4. rebuild your User account from scratch (no, you can *not* copy it over)
5. Copy zero (that's "0") preferences, applications, etc. over from your "other drive"

Then, run Tiger, with nothing but Tiger. No other applications, no third party anything. Don't hook up "just my Logitech mouse". Nothing. Run Tiger for twice as long as it used to take for you to get a crash/kernel panic.

If you still get a crash/kernel, then and only then will you know that Tiger is the culprit. Until then, every thing else is suspect.

I know the above from personal experience. I crashed like crazy for the first 2 weeks of Tiger, pissing and moaning about it. But in the back of my mind, I knew I'd broken two of the hard fast rules I'd set for myself years back: 1. I "upgraded", and 2. I copied over my User account. I finally realized I had to bite the bullet, and followed the above steps exactly.

I'm convinced that most of the Tiger crashes are coming from copying over ones User account. I mean, who wants to rebuild the User account??? But I'd bet money that by following the steps above, you'll be running right with Tiger.

I'm going to chime in here again although I don't yet have a solution.

When I first installed Tiger on my 1Ghz PB, I was getting crashes and seemed to be able to "create" a crash situation by taking certain steps. I was convinced that Tiger was the culprit.

Hayne (and others) suggested the steps that they've outlined here, but I was convinced that it was Tiger and was slow to follow their advice.

Fast forward a bit, that PB got so "sick" crashing in ways I couldn't reproduce, refusing to wake from sleep and when I did coax it to wake up, it would have forgotten the date and so on - started to look like hardware.

It was time for a new PB anyway so I got a new 'book and zeroed the old one and did a clean install of Tiger (again) and it still crashes and refuses to wake from sleep and the clock won't remember the date - definitely hardware - might just be the little battery, might be more - don't know yet, it's in the shop as we speak.

Tiger works fine on the new PB and I have none of the problems that I experienced on the other one.

That's not to say you aren't having problems or to make light of your frustrations, but I think Tiger might challenge certain machines in unexpected ways and doing as these fellows suggest is the only way to isolate the problem. I wish I had followed their advice at the outset and saved myself a couple weeks of grief while I wrestled with it.

Take care, Margaret

You nailed it. Tiger's main glitch is that it needs a clean slate on which to rest. Nothing can be pulled over that has Panther written on it, except ones documents, images, music, and the like. No porting over applications, User accounts, settings, preferences, printer setups, NOTHING. You gotta reinstall every single thing.

(and, as Margaret said, no discounting that you could have a hardware problem)

So far, to save time, I've Upgraded (using the button) 50 Macs of various ages and types to Tiger. Some from Jaguar, and some from Panther. So far I've only had 1 problem, and it's with a TiPB that has always been flaky.

So I would say, in my experience, Tiger does not need to be installed on a clean slate. Again.. in my experience.

That's funny, the user account I migrated over from Panther works perfectly. Ditto the ones on my server. And the other computers on which I've installed Tiger. And my friends' computers. Archive and Install, Preserving Users and Network Settings == hotness.

Margaret's (winwintoo's) post caught my attention even before this one.

I'm going to try to write this without offending anyone, as that is certainly not my intention here.

So.

An open letter to anyone having problems:

The experiences of the users who have only had problems and repeated problems cannot be taken as canon; the best advice--and the advice to which you should listen most intently--comes not from those whose experiences are, hitherto, nothing but headaches. They can typically only see the problems they've encountered, and not the entire matrix of issues vs the population section experiencing no problems at all.

There is rarely validity or veracity in such extremes as "you can't migrate ANYTHING" or "this problem is WIDESPREAD and Apple needs to acknowledge this problem exists" when there isn't any actual, verifiable, hard data on the matter. So far, there exists only a very, very, very small handful of WIDELY varied complaints on these types of problems. This is typical with any large-scale user migration--the law of large numbers dictates that there will be a section of the statistical base that encounters problems. This is standard curve stuff. I've heard the same types of complaints with /every/ OS upgrade in the last ten years. This goes for Windows, too.

The bottom line is that if you disconnect everything except the power and input peripherals included in the box, erase the hard drive, and install Tiger on a computer, it should run just fine. If it doesn't, there is a hardware problem that needs attention. If you buy a new computer and it doesn't run out of the box, return it for another--you've probably been the victim of a bad statistical pocket. (I think Hayne and Yellow would back me up on this one, but stranger things have happened!)

And, of course, once in a while there IS a real issue that's widespread. Just remember that just because someone SAYS an absolute like "there is a problem Apple needs to recognize" (paraphrased), and there are Apple Discussions threads that one can point to, this does not mean there is actually a widespread issue that anyone needs to fix. Apple Discussions is famous for users populating the boards with bad troubleshooting, unsubstantiated claims, and sensationalist exaggeration. Anyone who's spent any time in tech support can attest to this.

Advice: There's a lot of good information in this thread--advice about disabling third-party software (cough, Unsanity's stuff) and removing third-party devices and peripherals (the PCI card installed by TekServe, which is argubaly one of the best Mac shops in the country). Follow it! Strip down your system; attempt reinstalls (big emphasis here) IF WARRANTED; and when all else fails, give that call to AppleCare.

And definitely listen to the old-timers here--they've done this all before.

:-)

I've done 7 machines the same way with no problems other than scripts added to mail programs...

Cannot Shut Down from Desktop
 

Thanks for your feedback but I still cannot Shut Down from the Desktop.

In iCal I deleted the alarms/events and removed the preference file. I also deleted Unsanity's APE.

I don't know where tro look to find out about any issue with "authentication service".

Agreed. It was only my cure, in this one instance. And I might not have had to go that far. But such is the path of troubleshooting. And with computers, and my current knowledge base, I needed to just get up and running, and not try to isolate the exact problem.

Really, it's all voodoo to me. My most current voodoo is every morning, when I restart my Mac, there's no Internet connection. The fix? Unplug my router (for 20 seconds. 10 doesn't work, I tried), and all is well.

Tried upgrading the firmware on your router? Are you running a specialized/customized packet filter (on the Mac) that might be filtering your DHCP address?

Then you should not go around telling users who might listen that (paraphrased) "Tiger is glitchy and you can't migrate any of your stuff at all."

18spheres:

The next time you're about to shut down from the Desktop, quit all programs you can see running in the Dock and open Terminal (located in /Applications/Utilities). Type the following command exactly as shown:

Press return after you've verified that this matches exactly in the Terminal window. You will see a new file on the Desktop called "ps_output.txt". Feel free to look at it, but do not alter it. (It's a harmless text file, but we're gonna want to see it.)

You won't get any confirmation that anything happened in the Terminal window, so after you see the new file on the Desktop, click on the Apple Menu and click on "Shut Down...". If the computer fails to shut down, and I'm going to assume that it will, come back here afterwards and copy/paste the contents of the ps_output.txt file here so we can take a look at what's still running in the background right before you (try to) shut down.

That's quite a "paraphrase", Mikey.

What I described worked for me. Note the "worked for me" section of that sentence, Mikey. What most people throughout this forum, and I'd bet throughout the Internet and world at large, are describing what has worked for them, be it Mac computers, routers, gardening, child rearing, repairing the starter on their pickup, etc. In a few cases, those people sharing what has "worked for them" (again, don't paraphrase that!) are not experts. They're people trying to get through life, and help others along the way.

Cannpt Shut Down from Desktop
 

[QUOTE] The next time you're about to shut down from the Desktop, quit all programs you can see running in the Dock and open Terminal (located in /Applications/Utilities). Type the following command exactly as shown:

*******

Thanks so much for your help with this. Here it is.

USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND
robertbl 93 7.2 5.7 676376 29632 ?? S 7:32PM 0:28.72 Finder
robertbl 147 0.6 1.1 622408 5684 ?? S 7:33PM 2:32.50 Palm Deskt
robertbl 85 0.0 0.3 55532 1664 ?? Ss 7:32PM 0:01.08 pbs
robertbl 90 0.0 1.0 118588 5500 ?? S 7:32PM 0:04.53 Dock
robertbl 91 0.0 0.2 27924 1056 ?? S 7:32PM 0:00.57 aped
robertbl 92 0.0 1.1 114808 6008 ?? S 7:32PM 0:05.31 SystemUISe
robertbl 142 0.0 2.1 638612 11108 ?? S 7:33PM 0:02.13 StuffItAVR
robertbl 143 0.0 0.9 619348 4664 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.20 Microsoft
robertbl 144 0.0 1.3 623708 7028 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.58 iCalAlarmS
robertbl 148 0.0 1.2 623560 6448 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.46 Transport
robertbl 149 0.0 1.6 624380 8456 ?? S 7:33PM 0:02.62 System Eve
robertbl 150 0.0 2.3 635280 12320 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.74 SymQuickMe
robertbl 152 0.0 0.7 619176 3680 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.17 SymSeconda
robertbl 153 0.0 0.7 619240 3672 ?? S 7:33PM 0:00.18 ScanNotifi
robertbl 164 0.0 0.6 104932 3312 ?? S 7:33PM 0:46.99 UniversalA
robertbl 285 0.0 3.3 632116 17256 ?? S 8:35PM 0:02.95 DashboardC
robertbl 286 0.0 3.5 633624 18440 ?? S 8:35PM 0:01.39 DashboardC
robertbl 287 0.0 3.9 634292 20424 ?? S 8:35PM 0:03.58 DashboardC
robertbl 328 0.0 0.9 50872 4904 ?? SNs 8:48AM 0:01.22 mdimportse
robertbl 414 0.0 0.8 38044 4080 ?? S 9:06AM 0:00.09 AppleSpell
robertbl 419 0.0 3.0 639076 15576 ?? S 9:10AM 0:00.80 Terminal
robertbl 72 0.0 0.5 59312 2604 ?? Ss 7:32PM 0:07.63 ATSServer
robertbl 422 0.0 0.2 27800 816 p1 S 9:10AM 0:00.03 -bash
robertbl 74 0.0 1.1 98444 5872 ?? Ss 7:32PM 0:02.62 loginwindo

I'm happy to quote it verbatim:

"You nailed it. Tiger's main glitch is that it needs a clean slate on which to rest. Nothing can be pulled over that has Panther written on it, except ones documents, images, music, and the like. No porting over applications, User accounts, settings, preferences, printer setups, NOTHING. You gotta reinstall every single thing."

How was my paraphrase inaccurate?

18spheres:

You may want to disable this stuff and try again:

Palm is typically pretty keep-to-itself; benign. I wouldn't expect that to be a problem first and foremost, but anything's possible.

Unsanity should come nowhere near your HD. Ever.

StuffIt's only getting worse as the years go by. This SHOULD be benign, but you never know. I'd test with StuffIt gone.

I neglected to tell you to expand your Terminal window. Sorry. This looks like the Microsoft Database Daemon process. It's for the Office Notifications engine. I've never seen this screw me up, but I'd probably disable Office Notifications during testing.

I'll explain why I don't think it's iCalAlarmScheduler.

I don't know what this process is. Again, I neglected to tell you to expand the Terminal window, and the rest of the name of the process name was likely cut off.

Norton/Symantec products. The bane of tech support existence. Honestly, unless your IT department or school requires them, I'd consider chucking them.

DEEP BREATH NOW SO I DON'T PASS OUT FROM THAT.

Okay:

FSResolveAliasWithMountFlags

This is a Carbon function that deprecated a couple of different alias manager functions. If this is the error that's holding you up from shutting down, the program that's pissing off your computer is a Carbon app. iCalAlarmScheduler is not Carbon, as far as I know. My first thought is the Symantec stuff. I'm not sure what the Transport process is, but I always recommend people dump APE anyway, so I'll toss that coin into the hat.

Create a brand new user. Run the same Terminal command (px -uxc) with a BIG Terminal window and let us know what you see.

Previous posts of 18spheres' system.log have shown that during shutdown the process 'iCalAlarmScheduler' (iCAS) is refusing to accept AppleEvents (including quit) and therefore shutdown is stopped.

There is every possibility that APE is the reason why events are not reaching this process, and APE should be disabled.

After disabling it and finding the problem still exists then 18spheres should check to see if the above process is 'not responding' prior to logout/shutdown. I see that iCAS runs in 1 hour cycles so it would be a good idea to have at least 1 hour of uptime before trying this. If iCAS is shown as not responding in Activity Monitor, it should be force quit - and then a shutdown tried. If shutdown works, we've at least identified the correct process that is causing the problem and can proceed from there.

Yeah, I'm just not quite convinced iCAS is the actual culprit, but because of the system log analysis earlier, I made sure to include it in the ps rundown with an explanation why I thought that. I wouldn't be shocked if APE is stopping events from hitting iCAS or simply not allowing received events from completing.

I wonder how the new user experiment will go. (I didn't notice Spheres having done this, so if I've missed that, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time!)

Cannot Shut Down from Desktop
 

Just to remind you that this problem only happened when I installed Tiger.

I created another account and logged in. I then created a text box (ps_output.txt) and tried to Shut Down from the Desktop.

I see the line that has aped at the end. Please tell me how I can get rid of this thing called 'aped'?

The following is what was inputted into the text box.


USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND
robertb 297 0.8 3.2 641240 16776 ?? S 7:44PM 0:01.64 Terminal
robertb 274 0.6 2.2 124648 11784 ?? S 7:43PM 0:04.33 Finder
robertb 300 0.5 0.2 27800 824 p1 S 7:44PM 0:00.03 -bash
robertb 271 0.0 0.6 82724 3204 ?? S 7:43PM 0:00.58 Dock
robertb 272 0.0 0.2 27924 1132 ?? S 7:43PM 0:00.11 aped
robertb 273 0.0 1.1 112660 5536 ?? S 7:43PM 0:01.42 SystemUIServer
robertb 281 0.0 0.6 40344 2912 ?? SNs 7:43PM 0:00.82 mdimportserver
robertb 282 0.0 1.9 614068 10124 ?? S 7:43PM 0:00.41 SymQuickMenu
robertb 284 0.0 0.7 593452 3796 ?? S 7:43PM 0:00.14 SymSecondaryLaunch
robertb 285 0.0 0.7 593516 3832 ?? S 7:43PM 0:00.15 ScanNotification
robertb 75 0.0 0.5 50068 2700 ?? Ss 7:39PM 0:02.16 ATSServer
robertb 303 0.0 1.8 39392 9184 ?? Ss 7:44PM 0:01.69 SyncServer
robertb 254 0.0 0.8 85088 4076 ?? Ss 7:43PM 0:00.80 loginwindow
robertb 266 0.0 0.4 55532 1928 ?? Ss 7:43PM 0:00.84 pbs

Only in your rude response.

Look, forget it. People skills are not teachable in a thread. You're helping the guy out, and that's the purpose of this thread..

You can disable APE by using the disable option on the APE Preference Pane in System Preferences.

You've not said whether your shutdown was unsuccessful or not.

There is no APE Preference Pane in System Preferences in both accounts. No I still cannot Shut Down from the Desktop.

Thanks for all your help with this. If this cannot be fixed I'll take it to TekServe in NYC.

What's probably happened is that you have deleted the prefpane in the past, but not the code it controlled.

What you need to do is reinstall APE. Here is a link: http://www.unsanity.com/haxies/ape

Once you've installed it, you can use the uninstaller that comes with the package to get APE off your system, or use the prefpane to disable it.