real time clock battery?
 

My G3 powerbook (firewire) is circling the drain (OS 10.3.8). I can't even boot in single user mode any more. Back when I could get it up in single user mode, the console said I had a "preposterous time" in the real time clock. I reset it, system froze again, upon reboot console said it again. I used fsck and fixed some things, but it has gotten worse and now it won't even talk to me in any mode. Yes, I've reset the PMU. I spoke with apple tech support and we think the clock battery has died, so I have two questions:

1. Where do i get a new one? I've tried searching with google, but maybe I'm not using the correct terminology?
2. How do i install it?

thanks,
Daisy

PowerBook G3 Series: Backup Battery Purpose and Life

"If the date and time are still not held after a shutdown, have the backup battery replaced by an Apple Authorized Service Provider."

PowerBook: Testing Backup Battery

Macintosh Family: Batteries and Part Numbers, Part 2

"If you are uncomfortable changing the battery, an Apple Authorized Service Provider can install one for you."

Slightly confusing. I suspect the battery to be a wafer lithium, and expect that you can find it beneath the keyboard. Hopefully it's easily acesible, otherwise you might have to take things apart to get to it.

I googled for: macintosh backup battery
and found at least one dealer:
http://www.dvwarehouse.com/index.php/cPath/253_238_255
I'm sure it will come with installation instructions.

But I fear that your PowerBook has much bigger problems than merely a battery. The fact that you can no longer boot in single-user mode would seem to indicate that the disk is not working or that the filesystem has been corrupted to the point where the OS is no longer functional. You might need to reinstall from the Install CD.

You didn't mention if you can still boot from the Install CD. If you can, then use the version of Disk Utility that is on the CD to do "Disk Repair". Repeat immediately if it finds anything that needs fixing.

Thanks Yellow and Hayne!

I wasn't searching for "backup" battery, I was looking for "clock" battery. I'll try it myself, as the powerbook isn't worth what apple would charge me. I think it goes down on the logic board, so I've got to pull out the hard drive and stuff. I messed around with all that years ago, so I ought to be able to find my way around.

No, I can't boot from the install CD, so that kind of rules out the drive as the culprit. When I try to boot in any mode, I hear the power come on but the screen stays black, which is consistent with the backup battery.

AFAIK, they are the same thing.

I've already been inside my Lombard.
You need to remove the main battery, keyboard and upper shell, then you'll see a blue 2*1,2 V rechargable battery connected to the motherboard with a short cable and a small connector.

If you never did that before, I'd suggest getting the Service Source take-apart guide or equivalent, there are some plactic tabs you might break when you pry the shell apart and don't know where to start.

Get identically sized replacement cells, solder the cable to the new ones, isolate well and re-assemble.

Good luck.

I wouldn't have thought so. I thought the backup battery was not used at all when the machine is on some other power source.

At least the Mac LC series won't boot either with a flat clock-battery.

Sounds indeed like bad design.

I don't know if there is someplace a list with machines misbehaving that way. That would be pretty helpful so you won't try to fix the battery on a machine with a MoBo gone wonky.

I've ordered the battery and found the service source take-apart guide. I'll let you all know how it goes. If it doesn't work, I'll give up and replace the machine.

Desktop machines will also not boot if the battery is depleted. I've had this happen on my PowerMac 6100 back in the day...

Hey Daisy,

FWIW, apple tech support Tier 1 usually looks at a predetermined problem solution screen, and a flow chart. Sure, in some cases the back up battery can cause weird issues, but I think that it should not really cause the system to freeze. Typically when it does lock up its due to date sensitive data or application issues. Also, usually its the application itself that locks not the whole system. So, more than likely they were referring to old data that has not been updated in their flow charts at apple. In OS X time and date can be set to anything and the system will boot with out a hitch. Now some things you run within your OS are time/date sensitive and can act up if the time/date are not correct. That is where they get the idea that having the wrong time/date can cause issues. However, in my experience OS X does not really seem to care about time and date issues. My powermac G4 here at work has had a dead battery in it for like 6 months. Mainly because I only use it for testing stuff out and well, I guess laziness is a factor too. I have never ran into that problem.

The battery is not all the hard to replace if you have experience taking apart laptops. I would suggest you take it to an AASP and have a tech do it, since you will have to go down to the logic board level to replace it. The battery itself should not be that expensive, I think last time I installed one for a client apple charged like $12.00 to $18.00 depending on which model of G3 powerbook it was.

Now, taking a guess at what your problem may actually be with what little info I have is, perhaps there was something you are running on your system that is indeed time/date sensitive. Then your back up battery died, and it wigged out and somehow corrupted. If you have a copy of disk warrior run it on your system and scan for any kind of software corruption and repair. If you do not have a copy of disk warrior I highly recomend you go out and get a copy of it. I have been working IT for almost 6 years now and I cannot begin to tell you how useful diskwarrior has been supporting my mac clients.

If you can post some more specific issues with the system, like what you last loaded on it, what you use it for, when this problem first surfaced, and does it happen when you keep it plugged in? Then maybe I can better troubleshoot it, since its really hard to get a grasp of the actual problem with out having the actual unit in front of you.

tlarkin-

Thanks for your interest and input. From what I've seen on the apple discussions, I have realized that a depleted backup battery may not be the problem (or the only problem). I think I'll try disconnecting it to fully reset when I get home. That seems to have helped others in some similar situations.

I only use the G3 PB at home for email and web, and an occasional excel spread sheet. My 15" Aluminum Powerbook does most of the hard work, but I like to leave it at the lab sometimes. The G3 started acting up by freezing (not even a spinning beach ball, i'm pretty sure) and sometimes the only option was to hit the reset button. Apple said doing this too much with power on could ruin the backup battery. These issues are independent of power adapter (I have two - I doubt they both went kaputt at the same time) or main battery. At first, I could restart it and log in, but it would freeze up again pretty soon after it loaded my user account. I was able to use it by logging in to my husband's account and then switching to mine for a few days, so I thought there was a problem with my files. But then it deteriorated to the point that I couldn't even get to the log in. As mentioned above, I was able to boot in single user mode a few times but it would always crash pretty quick after booting into the pretty graphic side of things. Also, the console informed me the there was a preposterous time and date on the realtime clock. This happened 3 times, even though the time/date had been reset between each occurance. So, I know that the real time clock can't keep time anymore. Is there any other reason for that, besides the backup battery?

Next, I was only able to get to the gray screen for several attempts. Now, when I turn it on, it sounds like there is power, the green light blinks, and the screen remains black. No single-user console even. At least now it will shut down if I press and hold the power button, so I'm not using the reset so much. Sometimes it gives an unfamiliar tone a few times, so I am starting to wonder if RAM is my problem. I still have the original RAM it came with, so I might try swtching that out (the current RAM has been in since May 2000, so it isn't new)

I don't remeber loading anything new on it. It started in mid-January, and I ignored it for a while, and finally spent the time yesterday to try and deal with it. I was using a spread sheet and printing PDFs without problem just prior to the trouble.

I can't even boot from an install CD currently. I think I have to get to that point before I can use disk warrior?

I really have no idea what I'm doing, but I like to problem-solve and I'm not afraid to take a calculated risk and try things. My 15" Al PB is still running, despite the peach schnapps (mostly sugar once the EtOH is gone) my husband spilled into the back vents when it was asleep. I ordered it the day they were announced and this happened on Halloween (barely had it a month). I did lots of research and then cleaned it out it myself, and 16 months later, it still seems fine. I'm trying to say that I am totally willing to attempt whatever the G3 needs as long as parts aren't too expensive. If it gets pricey, then it makes more sense to replace.

Daisy

Disconnecting the backup battery did me no good, and I am convinved that a powerbook (unlike desktop) can run w/o backup battery.

I got three tones on start up. So, I removed the RAM and got out the original. All I get is the sound of power to the system. I pulled out all the RAM, which should give one beep at at start up, but it didn't, so that's probably not a good sign.

My G3 powerbook is up and running. I'm not totally sure why. I just fiddled with the CPU module to get it seated nicely until I could get one tone with no RAM. I tried each RAM card individually in the upper slot and both worked (no tones). When I tried to put them both back in at the same time, I got three tones again. Maybe there is something up with the connection on the lower slot? I took the card out of the lower and things are good again. I can live with 512mb. I'll run disk warrior tomorrow to make sure all is well.

I don't get it, because I wasn't getting RAM tones before, and when I did start getting them, it was sporadic. Oh well... it's working now.

Even if you're sure no peach schnaps made it in there, you could try some electronics-better-contact-spray such as Kontakt Chemie K60. You might also visually inspect the lower connector for any mechanical problems such as bent contacts, retainer-feathers too weak...

Did you try both modules alone in the lower slot to narrow in the problem ?

Anyway, glad to hear that the mystery zone shrinks.

I had a very similar problem with a teal G3 desktop. It would give me power but never boot the os (OS9). I thought it was a ram problem also. Eventually we had to take it to a repair center. They replaced the battery AND pulled bad RAM. So it actually ended up being a combination of both.

I did not try the RAM modules alone in the lower slot. It is pretty tough to get the CPU module to snap in and seat properly, and the lower slot is on the underside of the CPU module. If it weren't such a pain I would test that. I still have 512mb, so that's not too bad.

Unfortunately, when I started the computer up this am, it froze after loading my user file again. I had reconnected the backup battery, so I may still have an issue with that. I left the AC and the main battery in overnight, though, so it seems weird.

Just to be clear, the "martini incident" occurred with my OTHER powerbook (15" G4 AluBook) and has nothing to do with this G3 issue. And I'm quite sure that (peach) martini got in there. There was practically a whole drink in there. I poured it out through the back vents AND the video connectors on the right side. I wanted to cry! It is really kind of funny, now that its working fine and all. I do expect some carmelized sugar to be an issue some day.

If I recall correctly, one beep is no ram detected, two beeps is bad ram, and three beeps is incompatable ram. Try using the added (not factory) in either slot by itself. It may be incompatable with the factory ram in there.

Also, you say you have a PB G3 (firewire) model? That requires a firmware update to run OS X. If you do not have the proper firmware vesrion running it can cause lots of strange problems. You can check out what firmware here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117


Once you get the system to POST it should boot off CD reguardless of what OS issues you have since that is controlled on the firmware level and not the OS level.

Try swapping out ram chips and see what that does.

tlarkin,

Thanks, I think you may be on to something. I haven't updated the firmware. I'll go find an OS 9 cd and try it as soon as I can get it past the self test. Umm, what does "POST" mean?

tlarkin,

I'm afraid that I uderstand apple's instructions but I don't like them, so I am hoping I'm confused.

"The PowerBook Firmware Update 4.1.8 will only run on PowerBooks with built-in FireWire ports running Mac OS 9.1 from a local drive. If you are using Mac OS X you must boot from a local Mac OS 9.1 writeable partition (not a CD, or network disk) prior to following the update instructions."

Does this mean that I first have to re-install OS 9 on the hard drive? For some reason, I don't think I can use my external firewire drive to boot. Will a re-installing OS9 preserve my OS files? I doubt it. And it's too late to partition it. Please tell me that I'm wrong and that I can do some of these things to save the hassle of setting everything up all over again.

I ran the original hardware test CD and everything passed (thats with the original 64mb RAM). So there's some good news.

If you have about 200 MB to spare on your PBs drive, that's all it takes to install OS9.
It will co-exist peacefully with OS X, no worries.

Testing the other RAM with the CD you found might be an idea as well, if the problem persists after the firmware-update.

POST stand for Power On self Test, and if the unit chimes, then it passes the POST.

Yes, you have to have a bootable and writeable os 9 volume to flash the firmware. That is becasue there is no apple os x flasher out right now. There are third party apps out there that let you flash firmware in os x, but I have little experience with them.

You could just load OS 9 on your system (which you need an os 9.1 folder anyways to run classic mode) boot into it and run the firmware update.

Or, if anyone has any more experience with a utility that will allow firmware flashes to be run in OS X, perhaps they can chime in and let us know.

Otherwise you will have to boot from an OS 9 HD. You can try holding down the option key and see if it will boot to an external firewire drive, or take it to a mac that has os 9 on it and try target mode booting it, however I think that the drive has to be an actual local disk to that. I have never tried.

That is no longer true. I did a factory recall job for apple once. They sent out 100+ imacs to our retail side all with bad batteries from the factory. Guess what, they all booted just fine with bad batteries. Apple also claimed it was an error in firmware that was causing the system to drain the battery way faster than intended to. So, I had to replace the back up battery in over 100 imacs, then flash the firmware on all of them.

Batteries just back up the PRAM settings when the machine has no power going to it. It does not hold any important information that would cause your system to not boot. Infact its been that way since OS 9, and perhaps even OS 8.6

OK, I understand mechanical hardware stuff, but I don't really think about the software side much, so bear with me. I'm going to load OS9 from the install disk that came with the PB. But that is 9.0 and I need 9.1. I looked on my G4 PB and sure enough there is OS 9.1 folder, so I must have it on the G3 PB too? But I can't boot from that can I? I'm guessing that I must somehow upgrade from the 9.0 install to 9.1 using the system folder I already have. But I have no idea how to do that.

I checked the hard drive on the G3 PB (running off the 9.0 install CD) and can't see the system 9 and system X folders like I do in OSX on the G4 PB. There is one generic system folder. Is that normal?

Can someone please explain this to me?

...meanwhile, my aiport extreme is being flaky, so i'll go post over there once i get it up again! arghh!

You must have an os 9.1 or higher system folder on your mac to run classic mode with in OS X. That is why you see a 9.1 folder on your OS X pb g4. OS 9 however is probably not installed. Installing it puts certain files in the boot sectors and modifies the file system a bit to let the system know that its bootable. Just having the os 9 folder on your rig does not mean its bootable to os 9, it just means there is a system folder that os x can use to emulate os 9. Hope that makes sense.

Just boot off your os 9 cd, install it, hop online and download the 9.2 combo update. Then run it, flash firmware, change start up disk to your os x folder, reboot, then see what software problems you have. Once you get it back up and running in os x, I suggest you pick up a copy of disk warrior, and run it to help fix any software issues. I cannot tell you how valuable disk warrior is, if you are a mac user its a must to have.

While I sincerely feel with you concerning the sad story you tell, I do know for a fact, that my LC 475 would not boot if the internal battery is flat.
As I said earlier, it would be helpful to have a list of all Macs with this problem. A Mac + will happily boot without a battery and you say iMacs as well. But between those two...

any system that came preloaded with os 9 or higher should not have any kind of issue where it will not power on or lock up if the back up battery goes bad. Anything with a G3 processor or greater should be in the same boat.

Those problems tend to be with the older power macs, like the performas and such, but even then batteries just caused irregular behavior and there was never a set pattern to it. Also apple no longer supports those products so you are limited to refurbished or used parts, whichs makes you even more limited trying to support those older macs.

IMO, old macs make good door stops or boat anchors, same thing with old PCs.

Thanks Guys! You are SOOO helpful! I am totally optimistic that my beloved G3 PB will be healthy again soon. I guess the download and update to 9.1 is rather obvious and simple.

tlarkin is correct about the internal battery not being needed for boot (PB or desktop). I've been running with mine disconnected for a few days now. OK, sometimes running. A guy on the apple discussions has encouraged many folks to disconnect it in order to fully reset PMU and he has many happy posters. So, it sounds like it can mess up the PMU and need a reset, but the state of being depleted or removed is not a problem.

I picked up disk warrior yesterday, but can't boot from it yet. I will definately run it once I can get that far. I'll also check those 512 RAM modules.

My firmware was current. The machine is running great in OS 9, but has problems in OS X. There IS a hardware difference. I have been using the original 64 MB RAM card. I tested each of the 512MB modules in OS 9. The first one I tried began to boot but then shut off. I tried it again and got 3 beeps. I also got three beeps with the other 512 module. So maybe the intermittent problems that have been deteriorating are gradual failure of these RAM modules?

Do you agree with me that the RAM is my problem? Is there something I am missing or not considering?

It seems suspicious that they would both fail at the same time after 4 1/2 years of use, and I am worried that something has caused them to fail. Or is that normal? When one starts to go it puts more load on the other or something.

Yeah now that you mention it I think it was due to the older Macs using ADB with the power button on the keyboard not working.

OS X is definately more picky than OS 9 when it comes to RAM. If it works in OS 9 and you get three beeps (incompatable ram) I would say that the problem is the ram. What caused this? No way to tell at this point. Unfortunately, we are now in a trial and error phase since all hardware pass the apple hw tests, and the only error you can produce is ram related.

Next step, swap out the ram with known good ram.