Mac mini, why is this so cheap?
 

What is being sacraficed in the new Mac mini that the price can be so low? I love the idea of the mac mini but is it cheap graphics? Is everything upgadable, memory etc? Just wondering how this can be offered so cheaply? Something has been left out, right?

Not sure what you mean. It's a basic system with no extras. It has limited specs in some areas due to its size more than economy. You can upgrade memory, for example, but only have one memory slot so the upgrade is a remove/replace and not an addition.

Upgradable? Compared to a G5 tower? No. 1Gig RAM, max.

Graphics are ok, unless you want it for games.

What's been left out? No G5, no keyboard, mouse or monitor. No PCI slots, but how many do most people use?

It's a good system that will probably last most people a couple of years before they feel the need to buy a better one. Personally, I'd rather spend more on a dual G5 and not need to replace it for at least five or six years, but PC buyers buy on price, not TCO.

How is it compared to a G3 blueberry imac?

Faster.
A G4 is faster than a G3 at the same clock speed, just as a G5 is faster than a G4, for many tasks. The G3 iMacs only went up to 700 Mhz, and the Mini starts at 1.25 Ghz with a G4. The Mini and the later iMacs have Firewire, but the Mini also has USB 2.0, and the graphics card, although not state of the art, is newer.

Edit: Blueberry, is that one of the five flavor iMacs? According to Mactracker, they only went up to 333 Mhz with a 66 Mhz system bus and had no Firewire. The Mini is a huge step up from those.

Sure. If you add everything to the mini that you'd need to bring it up to the level of an eMac (CRT, monitor, keyboard, mouse), you pretty much pay as much as for an eMac. That's what they left out. You can't use the mini as is. It simply isn't functional out of the box, while the eMac is.

the idea being that a lot of people already have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, or want to buy a custom mouse, so why include it. I have a couple of monitors around, ditto all the other bits. 98% of Windows desktops are of the non all-in-one variety, so most switchers will have necessary bits already too.

Slightly off the topic, but, I have a Blueberry iMac at 400MHz with Firewire. Don't know the bus speed.

Marketing 101
 

There are many factors that make a unit such as the Mac Mini so inexpensive (ie NOT CHEAP)

Very small-- reduced shipping and transportation, warehouse space (costs money), less plastic and other parts, and reduced boxing and packing materials.

Besides the costs of the actual units, not having a keyboard, mouse and monitor reduces the cost for reduced shipping and transportation, warehouse space (costs money), less plastic and other parts, and reduced boxing and packing materials.

Apple is selling the previous generation chips, which are tried and true.

With no monitor, less returns for monitor related issues (which can be numerous).

Comparitively speaking, these boxes are very easy to assemble.

Apple is banking on volume based on the price structure. They will be right.

Very little R&D, it is basically a laptop stacked vertically without the monitor and battery. Quite an intelligent idea.

If they sold it at cost, they would still win to obtain new demographic markets and economic tapestries.

stripped ibook
 

It's pretty much an ibook without the screen, keyboard, or trackpad.
Considering that a large part of the ibook price is in the screen, I'd say the mini is about right on target pricewise.
It's cool, but not anything revolutionary.
Now if they were selling it for $299 that would be something!

I still think it would make a great little computer. Quiet, very small, adequately powered for most tasks. If I hadn't gotten a mac yet I'd surely get one to put on my desk to share a monitor with the PC.

In the future I can't wait to get a Mac Mini. I have used windows all my life and I have used Macs for about a year and I will not be able to just walk away from it. I will keep the PC for my gaming obsessions because it hands down smokes everything in the benchmark world. But, it is always vulnerable to virus attacks and that gets really annoying. You mac users have no idea, on my PC I have a built in firewall in the OS and an external firewall, an anti virus program and antispamware program. I am being serious, just to protect the system from floating dangers online. I am done with that. I no longer use it online. My favorite online buddy will be the mac mini. For now its a G3 imac blueberry and its perfectly functional and safe without worry. But I may lose it when I move soon, bummer. Macs are Impervious(so far) to virus attacks and absolutely a solid OS. I have grown quite fond of them. Trust me folks, the future is in symbiotic relationships between OS's, not just a limit of 1 way of doing things. I love options and could not give up either OS at this point as both have unique qualities I wish I could mesh into one. :D

This Mac mini would also be a good "stepping stone" machine for someone upgrading from an all-in-one (eMac, iMac) to a G5. You could pick the keyboard, mouse, display, and accessories you really want, cause you're saving money on the actual system. Then, when you pay off that purchase, it's easy to move up to a G5. You'll already have everything else, so I'll you'll need is the tower. You can keep the mini as a second machine, or sell it on eBay.

Sweet Cross-Plat Setup
 

Your post should be copied and used on another Coat Room thread, Xd. A good topic for conversation.

I think the ultimate setup would be, a Shuttle PC, and a Mac Mini stacked on top with a KVM switch to monitor, keyboard and mouse.

These two connected to the LaCie Ethernet Drive or somehow both connected via Firewire or USB 2 to the same external drive.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

Agreed. But I just had the monitor go out on my eMac at work. It would cost as much to fix it as to replace it. Because it is an all-in-one the whole machine is down the tubes, whereas if the monitor were separate all we'd have to do to grab a spare monitor (or buy one). So there are pros and cons to all-in-ones.

I agree. I have a love/hate releationship with them. I have an eMac, and have taken the thing apart several times to upgrade RAM, optical drive, hard drive, and even to up the clock speed on the processor (don't try this... it's a pain). Each time it's a time consuming and tedious task on the eMac, but the same tasks take a matter of minutes on my B&W G3. Not to mention, the B&W is more upgradable, so that's why I still have it. If it was an all-in-one I probably would've dumped it years ago. All-in-ones are definitely easier to set up, find room for, and even upgrade (if you're using FW drives). They're also incredibly convienient and hard to match for the price. Basically they suck when it comes to service and internal upgrades... of course, a casual user doesn't try to do these things himself anyway, so I'm not sure how much water that holds. Anyway, that brings me back to the love/hate relationship. ;)

I have always been a component man. I think that is why I like the Mini so much. It is not a huge box to move or store, and I can use the same keyboard and mice I use on my XP laptop. The G5 iMac was a temptation, but I am glad I waited for my Mini!

That would be the late 1999 model DV. Bus speed is 100 MHz.

Did anyone see these?
 

Kind of a cool little accessory for the Mac mini.

Getting back to the original title of this thread... I priced the software (Mac OS X, AppleWorks, Quicken, iLife) included on the Mac mini from the Apple Store... $356.95. I guess that means they're throwing in the computer for an extra $142.05. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a mini-itx PC board and CPU for that... let alone HDD, optical drive, and case. Let us not forget the mini actually has dedicated GPU and dedicated VRAM, where as most mini-itx systems just share the system RAM for video. That IS really cheap... how can you go wrong for that price?

Wow. I am a PC user as well as the Mac and I never defend M$. I think it is extortion practically to charge the prices they fix. Which is why I am ever more impressed with the way Jobs is running this Apple company. This just shows the effort to really try and make a wonderful product affordable for all. Besides, PC users have been piecing their machines together since the beginning, its part of the fun. My mac is 1 unit,(g3 blueberry imac) its great but cut n dry. My PC I built using parts from 20 different companies and it rocks. So gathering parts is part of the fun for me. My Pentium/RAM And hd comparable Mobo/case ran me about 650. But thats was top of the line parts 3 years ago. You know how that goes. I can't wait to get my Mini.

I agree with you about building PC's. I enjoy it. The nice thing about building your own PC, is you can physically pick the components you want, and choose if you want to spend more on RAM and less on a video card... or whatever. I've never found building your own PC to a money saving experience though. Dell and Gateway sell their stuff so cheap, you usually can't build a comparable PC for what they charge, especially once you factor in the included software (and your time).

I really wish there was a bigger 'build your own Mac' communinity. I did it a few years ago. Some of my PC friends were talking about how you couldn't build your own Mac, so I decided to prove them wrong. ;) I found a Sawtooth board and PS on eBay, then I bought an ATX case and gathered up the rest of the comonenets (DVD-ROM, 60 GB HDD, GeForce2, 512 MB RAM, 1GHZ OWC processor upgrade) and slapped it all together. It was a FUN project and it really shut up my PC friends, but it wasn't cheap. I probably could have just bought a used Sawtooth off eBay for less money... but like many things, it's not the practicality it's the experience.

Exactly right. Most mac users are exclusive and are just now experiencing these new freeing options etc and I know they will love it too. That is what apple borrowed, open it up to other venders.

As hard as it is for some to acknowledge, this Mac/Windows tension is a necessary symbiotic relationship that has pushed both to the top of the pile. Now macs can be pieced together and it is all really evolutionary to get what you and I have been enjoying for years. A good idea will always be "borrowed". Expect windows to try and counter ipod soon. LOL.

By the way that Mac sounds like the cousin to my PC. Probably comes down to the processor as always. :cool:

Ya know, I was just looking through some of my old image files... and I found a picture of the old "Franken-Mac". I'm not sure what happened to the rest of them (I documented the entire building process), but I did find this one. This pic was taken right before I installed the processor. Everything else is installed, if you look closely you can the plastic backplate I fabricated to cover the ports. Man that was a fun project!!! I wish I never would've sold it. This thing was a piece of history. :D

PCs are like old Chevys, you can put a hemi engine if you want and trick it out with oversized tires and wot-not. However, the Mac is like a Lexus, best to leave it alone. For example, can you imagine trying to piece together a box like the G5 with its 9 fans? Or something like the Mac Mini? That is hi-tech engineering there.
I once had an idea for Apple to make all the components in slide drawers so that it looks like a small MIDI rack. Want a bigger drive, slide out the old and slide in the new. Same with the motherboard, RAM and even the power supply.

You see, that is what some of you mac fans do not realize, Windows OS is the only thing Micro$oft in the PC and I can change that to a different OS if I want to at anytime. Like I said 20 different company parts gathered from around the world hand picked because of the research I did and their quality. It is the best part of creating a PC (mac or windows) to fire it up. I really enjoy it all and I will build a mac the same way.

Hey that looks just like mine. ;)

Isn't that an Xserve?

A Dodge engine in a Chevy???

Ok Ok back to the question.

It sounds like we have a stripped down package and that we merely need to add a monitor, keyboard and mouse and viola. Not a problem when I get around to it, this is going to be fun. Those guts will be upgradable I assume? Memory, processor?

Memory to 1 Gig, processor: not likely.

I see. :eek:

G4 faster than G3? Not for me!
 

I beg to differ, CWTNoSpam. My Blueberry G3/350/512MB/MacOS8.6 's System and Finder are waaaay snappier than those on my G4/800/1GB/OSX.3.7 machines ! Significantly faster! I would say at least twice as fast!
Of course OSX is an entirely different – and great (imho) – concept. And I would never go back to CRT's from those gorgeous flat panels. But the G4/OSX speed penalty was a very UNpleasant surprise when I first installed it 2 years ago.

Yes it is one of the 5 flavors, original imac blueberry but I have to agree with Rokcet on this because this G3 has 400MHz cpu speed and its got a 100MHz bus.

I hardly put it through the ringer so it performs ok. What kind of graphics card does the mini come with? Are there options?

That's always been the "general" rule with Macs. As the Hardware gets newer, it gets faster, as the OS gets newer, it gets slower. I remember my old PowerMac 8500. It ran great with 7.5, when I upgraged to 8.0 it ran a little slower, 8.1 not much difference, 8.5 a little slower yet, and 8.6 even slower. I never went to 9.0 on it, cause 8.6 was slow enough. However, the benefits over 7.5 made it well worth the upgrade.

Now there are some exceptions to this rule (ie: Panther seems to run faster then Jaguar on the G3 - among others), but for the most part it holds true. That's why Apple always releases newer and faster hardware to compliment each new OS. I usually upgrade an OS 1 or 2 times before I upgrade hardware... but that's just me, there's plenty of people running OSX on 266mhz G3's. ;)

The mini has 32MB of VRAM, Radeon 9200 GPU I believe.

Xd, if you want to see some pics of the Mac mini's guts, click here. It appears to be really well built.

The G3/G4 comparison is based on running the same software. OS X has extensive premptive multi-tasking, so some things would be faster in OS 9, where a process didn't have to give up the processor if it didn't "want" to. If you were only running one or two apps, OS 9 probably would appear to be faster, but I wouldn't try to do something like play a song in iTunes, a movie or two in Quicktime, load a web page, download a file, and sync up my Palm all at once in OS 9 on any machine.


Apple's Specs for the Mini's Video:

DVI video output for digital resolutions up to 1920 x 1200 pixels; supports 20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz

VGA video output (using included adapter) to support analog resolutions up to 1920 x 1080 pixels

S-video and composite video output to connect directly to a TV or projector (requires Apple DVI to Video Adapter, sold separately)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught that :p

That is some tight engineering there. Is that the actual raydeon 9200 graphic (card)? The processor and everything looks absolutely permanent. Maybe I will have to visit Apple and give a test run soon.

os9 was really snappy till something crashed and froze up the whole machine.

OSX- maybe your GUI doesn't look so fast but there is major work going on behind the curtain.

as for g3 vs g4 vs g5, again it is not really accurate to say each is faster at the same clock speed, it is getting more work done. Think of it as G3 is a two lane highway, with no passing allowed. A G4 with os9 is four lanes but still no passing allowed. A G5 with OS10.3 is 8 lanes, passing allowed, and an sattelite navigation, and big brother watching to make sure no one breaks the traffic rules.

Analogy copyright 2005 kansaigaijin.

It appears to be a 1 piece board. Mobo, CPU, GPU, Chipset all built-in. The HDD would be easily replacable, as would the RAM and Optical Drive. If the CPU or GPU go, it looks like you'll have to replace the whole board.

Exactly, that sucks. Why make the processor unreplacable? Stupid.

Right, but every Mac comes with that. Add in a keyboard and display and compare with the eMac, which wins hands-down.

As has been noted, however, the assumption is that one will use an existing keyboard and display from another set-up. I guess that makes sense, only the assumption again is that the computer for the existing set-up will be bumped for awhile or replaced with the Mini.

Aside from the fact that the Mini is a cool piece of hardware and very portable, I'm still having a hard time seeing the practical need for it.

Xd, it's probably the only way they could really fit it all in there. This guy tried to copy a Mac mini with PC components and the only way he could get it to fit was to leave out the optical drive. Maybe Apple should've made the mini a half inch taller and put a processor daughtercard in there... but in any case, the mini is sweet.

the thing is two inches tall. it is a extremely optimised design.

if you want something you can mess around with, buy a Powermac G5.

You know what I forgot, I wonder what the warranty is on it? I mean it will be covered to some point so I bet it will still be worth considering. I am really rooting for the mini but the more I learn the more it looks like I will be building one instead which, is always fun. :cool:

Even cheaper?
 

Is there any way that I could get additional RAM for the Mini for less than Apple wants to sell it to me for?

even 512 seems pretty steep @ $75 (when compared to the price of the rest of the unit)

Also, does anyone know how much I should be paying for a second hand 20" cinema display?

Xd, The mini comes with a 1 year warranty out of the box, you can purchase additional AppleCare if you're interested. Also, check out the link I posted above (about the home-built PC mini) if you haven't already.

Opium, if you order the mini with standard RAM, you can replace it yourselft and save a lot of money. Directions can be found here. The only problem is... what to do with the 256MB stick you take out? Recycle, eBay, or sell to a PC using friend?

sounds like you are getting the wrong impression somehow, you can mod the mini, but you can't really build one. The example of the PC was about how a PC modder tried to fit a non-production -nano-itx- board into a mini case. this frankenstein creation would not run MACOSX and is only cosmetically a Mac mini. the fact that he could not fit in a optical drive indicates how well designed the mini is.

look here for the story

http://www.mini-itx.com/

but keep in mind you are building a Windows or Linux machine.

We both realize that. Earlier in this thread (page 2 I think) Xd and I talk about building PC's and even building Macs (yes it can be done). I think that's what Xd is referring to. Neither one of us are so naive as to believe you can run OSX on a PC mobo. Thanks for looking out for our sanity though. ;)

No, an Xserve is an entire computer system built into a 1U rack. My idea was for a rack the width of a Mac Mini with all the individual components (power supply, processor, RAM bank, drives, audio, Firewire etc) mounted as "drawers" so that you can slide them in and out as you wish to upgrade. Need a bigger drive? Loosen the thumbscrews, slide out the drawer and slide in the bigger version. Want to upgrade to a faster CPU? Loosen the thumbscrews, slide out the drawer and slide in the faster version. Need more RAM? Loosen the thumbscrews, install the RAM in the one-of-several slots and slide it back.

Kinda like this

along the same lines, only slide out, not stackable...

too bad it's not real :) I think it's a good idea though.

Exactly. Only in my head they are brushed black anodized.

Okay, I know this is very simple, but it's a basic conceptual drawing

"but the more I learn the more it looks like I will be building one instead"


not every reply is directed at the immediate participants, other people read these threads too. who knows exactly what their understanding is.
the above quote could certainly give someone the impression one intends to build their own mini from off the shelf parts, much the way we can build a PC.


the centris610/powermac6100 had drives on a sled that could be slid in and out. the 6200 ( a real road apple) had its motherboard on a tray that could be slid right out the back of the case. god knows why.

why mar the mini with all that stuff on the front, at least put a door on the thing.

OMG! You're talking about reintroducing the S100 Bus!

Oklay guys, check out this Mac mini mod.... interesting.

Your drawing is the basic idea cameranerd74, however, I would not hide the processor, it would be in its own drawer so you can upgrade the processor with a slide and swap. You inspired me to mockup my idea. I will post this at my website after I write it up. You will note that the processor has a window to view temperature and I/O stats. UGH, this is SUCH a great idea. Apple, you need to hire me, seriously. ;)

I Agree... Pure Genius :cool:

Have you patented that yet? If not, do it.

I wish I could, patents are not like copyrights. You have to hire a patent lawyer just to make sure it has not already been invented. Your looking at $5K just to get started. In contrast to a copyright that can only cost $10.

Okay, I did a write up for this idea

lol. I think youre missing the point somewhat

Doing my best here pal. If by missing the point you mean I am not happy about having less options as a consumer then you would be right.

Well its a consumer computer, designed for people who wont be interested in processor upgrades.

I know plenty of people whod be interested in it and I know very few people who go so far as processor upgrades .. or indeed any upgrades apart from RAM.

You have nearly an infinite number of options as a consumer. One of them is purchasing a Mac mini. Nearly infinity minus one is still nearly infinity. :rolleyes:

Yes, I realize my choices... I was only wishing aloud. Not knocking apple or the mini or anyone posting here. I have an opinion... I wish there were more options with the processor. :cool:

Maybe this will shed some light on the subject....

I talked to one of the Apple reps (at Macworld SF) about the lack of upgradability for the mini. His response was simple: the mini is targeted at the same market as bookshelf stereos. Someone who buys one of these stereos isn't going to mod it themselves. If it breaks, they'll take the whole thing in for repair, if something newer and better comes out (and they can justify the upgrade) they'll simply replace the unit. This is why the Keyboard, Mouse and Display are not incuded with the mini. You simply swap out your mini for a new mini and the rest of your system stays constant.

I'm not sure if I agree with him or not... but that's the Apple approved answer.

I would rather open it up and upgrade the chip and guts on my own/ voiding the warranty or not... But at least it is an option in the right direction. A trade-in upgrade is better than nothing. Another notch on the plus side.

I agree with Xd, it would be NICE if you could replace the processor. We know you can't, but would like it if we could. Even with it's limitations on upgrades it has something the iMac and eMac lack, choice of monitor. I read somewhere on here that if the processor fries you have to replace the entire board. True, but I have a couple of Performa 400s that are still in use and have the processor on the mobo. I've had no hardware problems with them, and I trust the mini's will perform as well (they better, I bought 3 of them!) As for logic boards sliding out, the 5xx and 5xxx series did this. In fact it was the easy way to upgrade your 5xx to a PPC. As far as processor upgrades for the mini, there is potential. If you don't have any wireless options installed there's an extra slot open... Not saying it's possible or probably, but hey look at when the 7200 wasn't upgradable, welcome the upgrade via PCI, or the 5xxxx series, welcome the L2 upgrade. Who knows maybe we'll see a G4 2Ghz upgrade via the RAM slot, hmmm. doubles as 1 gig of RAM. Might be possible, who knows. (P.S. I know the bus speed is only 167 Mhz so how would you get 2Ghz through there? Don't ask me, I just come up with ideas, I don't make 'em work, always)

The problem with replacing the processor is that the current processor (on any system these days) is already far faster than the mother board. Putting in an even faster processor isn't going to make a big enough improvement. Since we're wishing here, it would be nice if you could keep the processor and upgrade the mother board...
:D
Of course, if you're doing that, you might as well get the new processor too. A new, larger hard drive and a better display card would also be good.

Hmm, sounds like a whole new system, doesn't it? Might as well throw in the new case and call it a day.

Which is why I came up with the Component Rack System idea.

What a joy it would be to swap motherboards, video cards and I/O modules without having to be a hardware genius!

Nice idea, but how do you implement it? The difference is that computer improvements involve increasing bus speeds, bandwidths and other interconnects. For example, increasing processor speed and RAM speed won't help much if the path between them is slow and narrow.

These issues don't occur to nearly the same degree with MIDI, because timing down to the nanosecond or even millisecond isn't as big an issue with music.

That is a good question, my only answer to that would be to combine the processor and RAM drawer. Pull out the drawer and the RAM modules are easily accessible at the top. If you want to replace the entire processor unit, you can slide the drawer out and replace it with the new. You would probably have to put speedier RAM in as well unless you did a cross upgrade to a dual processor unit. That should work, right? The rest can be plug-and-play power, Firewire and USB2 connections.

What about the video card? It needs a fast path to the processor too. Adding that into the same drawer pretty much leaves you with a drive-less Mini.

The connection of the video card is PCI based. All the really fast stuff is done in the card itself (ie rendering). The drawer is basically like adding a new card to a tower. I'll admit, the memory should be tied close to the CPU, but anything that can be dropped onto a PCI slot can get away with a drawer system such as the Ethernet, sound and I/O devices.

I suppose that could work in a limited range, but even PCI has seen upgrades.

As long as the components keep improving, the communication between them needs to improve just to keep up. That makes it difficult to design a system that can be upgraded significantly by swapping parts. The closest we have to that is Firewire and USB 2.0, but even they aren't fast enough for the future.

Don't spend your royalities yet... Ever heard of VME? Well, these days, CompactPCI? Not a bad idea, but it's been done...

Apple's really after the CPU replacement market for PCs. An EXTREMELY small percentage of PC users actually install replacement PCI cards, let alone those that upgrade the motherboard. They replace boxes. After all, what does the case cost? $20?

That rarely happens due to standardization practices and shelf life. However, with the rack model, you can replace your actual rack with any new and improved version, yet your power supply will still work, your Ethernet will still work and so will your sound and I/O modules. The only thing the case contains is the multiple low-cavitating fans and the socket buss system. On the day they go from copper to optical buss connection, I agree, it will be time to change your rack case. ;)

There are already such a standard (among many), one known as Compact PCI. However, even in the server-rack world this approach is being replaced with stand-alone boxes (blade servers). Look at Apple XServe line. The level of chip integration is to the point where more and more functions are getting absorbed by the processor. First it was MMU, then L1 cache, then L2 cache, next PCI bridge, after that, networking and I/O. What do you need with separate sound and I/O modules today? You're talking about a $10 piece of PCB with a fifty-cent microcontroller.

The component rack analogy is quite accurate. It used to be the case that you had a separate tuner, amp, equalizer, multiplexer, deck, etc. and now you get all the same functionality in a home-theater-in-a-box. And that one box costs the same as any one of the boxes of the previous generation. Audiophiles still buy carefully tuned componets, but they are in the CompactPCI market, not the low-end market.

It's not a bad idea, just false economy. If you look at low-end PCs, everything is on the motherboard and if you ever tried to upgrade anything fancy like display card you'll almost always find it cheaper/easier to buy a new box.

Good points Slacker. However, the rack system would work great for varied specialized uses. One person would install an audio I/O for 16 channel input and output 48khz 16 bit sound for professional recording and mixing. Another would install a Dolby 6.1 sound module for a theater system. The new 9.1 system is out. Replace the entire computer? No, just slide in the new module. I don't care HOW inexpensive computers get, this is still less expensive way to upgrade. Why replace your entire computer system when the new DVD-HD drive comes out?

Yes, the Xserve and blade models are great, but I am looking at a prosumer and consumer level solution. Basically, something extremely easy for people to upgrade and modify on their own.

Basically, todays tower systems do exactly what this rack system does. The only difference is that it is a drawer system so that average users do not need to crack open the CPU box. Sure, it is not perfect, and shelf life may remain the same with advances in buss design, but hey, it has great merit as a design.

True, but how is this any more of an issue than it is on a regular box? If you have an old G4 sitting around and you upgrade the processor, you aren't upgrading the busses. Same thing on an X86 box. Upgrading your Celeron to a P4 is not going to improve bus speed. Just like adding more RAM to any computer is not going to add bus speed.

I think the advantage of Schneb's idea is that everything in the system is an FRU (field replaceable unit), not only that, but any idiot can do it themselves. It would also make adding additional drives and I/O really easy. Not to mention it leaves doors (er.. drawers) open for things we haven't even thought of yet. I think it's a great idea.

Absolutely spot-on, cameranerd. I sat back and thought of some sample third-party modules. It was great fun...

Powerbook and iPod docking slot.
48 channel 24-bit/192kHz analog XLR I/O professional audio.
MIDI sample modules (made especially for this purpose)
Audio Spectrum Analyzer
Telescope controller
Robotic arm (plays physical chess as default demo-just enter board size)
Advanced electronic analysis (oscilliscope in, oscillator out, multimeter etc.)
3x5, 4x6, 5x7 photo printer (slide in blank, photo slides out)
Carousel DVD reader or reader/writer with optional stacker.
Slide out, tilt up LCD monitor.
Slide out keyboard and mouse system.
Battery drawer for remote use (safari video editing)
Theater 9.1 audio system.
High-powered transmission unit for remote robotics.
88 key servo out for MIDI controled player pianos and orchestrons.
Computer controlled FM/AM tuner
X-10 Home automation system. (light & curtain control for home theater)
Multiple HD camera-in, monitor and control bay for live broadcast editing.
Wireless footswitch system for musicians with high-quality output audio.
3D scanner (with included turntable)

1/4" and XLR input/output panel
fiber optic NIC
battery charger (for thousands of types of batteries)
RAID array
Airport Base Station (think about the possibilities here)
Multimeter w/probes
diagnostic boards
digicard readers
VHS (heck, why not BETA?) player
Casette deck
legacy I/O board (ADB, Centronics, etc.)

...the list can go on and on.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, just that it makes the system seem more upgradabe than it really would be without making it more upgradable than current systems.

I wouldn't count on it being idiot proof either. Just yesterday I heard of a guy who forced Firewire cables in backwards and fried the Firewire ports on both his Mac and his external drive! :eek: Somebody would find a way to mess it up.

Even R2D2 plugged into a power socket...

How true, how true... NOTHING is idiot proof.

The universe is a place of delicate balance. If you make something idiot-proof, the universe will counter with a better idiot.

LOL-- Remember the idiot-proof instamatic camera by Kodak? I recall a scene in Close Encounters where Roy Neary could not get that film cartridge in to save his life.

Speaking of 86'd you dont need fiction to find ridiculous metaphores just take a look at a recent and non fictional idiot. His name is Rick and the idiot just doesn't get it. You may remember Rick (the weasal)? Rick Neuheisel (Neuweasal as his colleagues refer to him) was the former college football coach for Washington. His multimillion dollar contract which was recently settled in court in his favor because Washington realized they had an overpayed loser on their hands, he was fired for betting on the NCAA tournament and was found guilty of violating 51 seperate NCAA tournament rules in just 2 year which is the reason why Washington is still on probation. He should of been fired because he was a bad coach. Give yourself a gold star Rick, you certainly deserve it because this is proof that even an idiot can become a millionaire and actually get a promotion after leaving Washington's immediate football program in ruin's. I feel for the kids who signed on and who's college career is now essentially limited. Good riddance to you Rick...

Of course this has nothing to do with why mac mini's are so cheap and neither did the several last posts but WTH... In fact Apple should hire this idiot because for all his stupidity the dude somehow just keeps the cash rolling in.

is the mini core solo a faster/better machine than a G4 sawtooth w a 1 gig processor? I know it's not as upgradable as my sawtooth is....

I just need something faster, and the $599 is a good price range for a new machine... I was looking at the 667mhz system bus, compared to the 100mhz bus in my sawtooth.

512 isnt nearly enough ram... 1 gig would be a min... imho

You'd have been better off starting a new thread for this question, but yes, it should be noticeably faster.