Norm - Thanks for the additional info regarding Techtool. I have ordered my copy today, along with DiskWarrior and a Firewire cable (so that I can try chabig's suggestion of intalling Panther using a Powerbook and target disk mode).

I don't suppose you have any thoughts on my previous post regarding my drive configuration? Have I got one too many masters?

Thanks,

Jon

Somebody else will have to field this one. I only have two internal hard drives, one plugged directly into the logic board bus, the other into an ATA PCI card channel.

I wonder whether it would be appropriate to place your question on master-slave drive configuration and numbers in the Hardware forum?

Respectfully, Norm

Still no Panther... :(
 

Chris, I stripped my Mac down to the bare essentials. I disconnected the slave drive and removed all peripherals, including the ethernet cable and KVM switch, resulting in the following set-up: original 80GB hard disk (still set to master), monitor, keyboard, mouse (plugged into the keyboard), Superdrive (still set to master).

I then removed the 512MB RAM module and inspected the module and the slot. For what it's worth, they looked OK to me. The inside of the G4 was fairly dusty, so I give it a quick spring clean with a small battery-powered vaccuum cleaner. I re-inserted the RAM, ensuring it was pushed in firmly, and fastened the two securing levers into place.

I closed the G4's case, then booted it up from the original Apple hardware test disk. I ran the extended test. Each stage of the test resulted in a Pass. At the end of the test, the software confirmed that it had found no hardware problems.

I rebooted from the Panther disk, which managed to reach the installation set-up stage (as it has sometimes done before, with or without various peripherals installed). I chose my language settings etc, but couldn't use the 'archive and install' method becuase I decided yesterday to completely erase this disk using OS X 10.1.5's Disk Utility, running from my slave drive. So I chose the ordinary OS X install option. I didn't customise the installation and proceeded to install.

A short way into the disk scan, the installer froze, in the same way I have described previously (no mouse movement, no caps lock light etc).

I rebooted. Again, it managed to get through the boot stage and reach the installer software. I attempted to run the installer's disk utility (I wanted to check the hard disk), but this immediately froze before it got a chance to load.

I rebooted again. Reached the installer software. Tried a custom installation, switching off all font, application, printer and language options, leaving just the system and BSD options. Started the installer, skipped the disk scan. This time the installation got part way (around 30%?) before it froze. For the record, I have managed to get this far (and further) in previous attempts with most of my peripherals attached.

I rebooted and managed to reach the installer. This time, I opened up the case so that I could hear any disk activity. I selected the same minimal custom install, started the installation and listened to the Superdrive and activity. After a few minutes the installer froze and the drives stopped making any read/write noises. I left it for half an hour, came back, and it was still frozen with no audible disk activity (I was running out of time, so I couldn't spare 60 minutes).

I rebooted again. The grey Apple screen appeared with the spinning circle of lines, and it stuck there. 10 minutes later, it suddenly froze. Up until it froze, I could distinctly hear disk activity coming from the Superdrive, then nothing.

At this point my instincts were telling me that my 80GB hard disk was the problem, despite the fact that I had erased it. I decided to disconnect it, reconnect my slave drive and try to install on there (I have a partition on there with no system). This attempt froze at the boot stage, so I gave up... Maybe I should have set this drive to Master?

I think I now suspect both my Superdrive and my hard disk (or could it be the on-board disk controller?)

I have ordered DiskWarrior and TechTool, which should arrive tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if my G4 will boot from these disks, as I understand that they feature bootable 10.2.8 and 10.3.x systems, respectively. Hopefully they will boot so that I can run some more hardware tests. If they don't boot, then I guess the hard disks are OK and the problem is with the Superdrive, memory, or worse...

I have also ordered the Firewire cable, which should arrive in a couple of days, so I can try the target disk mode idea you suggested.

Jon

I think no-one else suggested that maybe your installation CD is bad. If not suggested before, try copying it to another CD using toast, if possible, and see if you can boot and install from the copy. If it fails to copy, that may well point to the problem as well. Even if your CD works on another machine it could be just dirty or corrupted enough to cause problems on one drive and not another.

I may have missed it, but which Panther installation CD is it? Was is purchased stand alone? If it was for a G5, that could cause problems if there are separate install disks that come with G5 systems.

Jon,

Here's to your patience buddy. I think you've done about everything that you could possible do. If the firewire disk mode doesn't work, then I suppose you'll to try installing the hard drive in another machine.

Chris

Yes, someone on Apple's Discussions forum suggested that the disks could be faulty. I agree with you that, even though my discs work on my G3 Powerbook, they may have some subtle fault that my G4 is sensitive to. Having said this, I did try swapping my Superdrive for a Sony DVD drive, but that didn't work any better. Also, I have successfully made a bootable duplicate using Apple's Disk Copy tool, but it has made no difference: it gives me the same problems as the original disk.

They are retail Panther disks ('Version 10.3.2' is printed on the CD's). If I were to buy another set of disks from Apple now, do you know if they would be a later version of Panther, say 10.3.5? (Naturally, I am very reluctant to do this).

Thanks for your suggestions :)

Jon

I still think your problem could be the RAM or your processor. Your putting a lot more work into both when installing than you will with the hardware test CD. Do you have other RAM DIMM(s) to try?

You could well be right. I really hope it isn't the processor (there's two, so I'm guessing this would be very expensive to fix or replace).

I have some RAM in an old G4 466 single processor that I could borrow to test. I am fairly sure it has the same type (SDRAM PC133), and I know this G4 466 runs Panther, which is a good sign. I will try it later and post back the result.

Thanks for the idea :)

Just had an idea: the G4 466's hard disk has Panther installed on it, so I could try installing this disk into my G4 1Ghz DP and see if it will boot from that...

Some progress, but still no cigar...
 

I sat down this evening for yet another 'let's try and install Panther' session. This time, I had the following resources to try out:

• TechTool Pro 4 CD;
• A hard drive with Panther already installed, taken from a G4 466;
• 2 x SDRAM PC133 CL2 memory modules - a 512MB and a 256MB, taken from the same G4 466 (my existing module is a factory-installed 512MB SDRAM PC133 CL3 module, but as far as I am aware the only difference between CL2 and CL3 is that CL3 is faster, right?)

With my G4 still stripped of all but the bare minimum of peripherals ( keyboard, mouse and monitor) I took out my hard drive and replaced it with the borrowed drive with Panther already installed and booted it up. It got as far as showing the desktop, but before the dock or Finder menu bar got a chance to show, it froze.

I switched off the Mac, took out my 512MB module and replaced it with the borrowed 256MB module, then booted again. This time the Finder and dock loaded and I was able to click around in Panther. Great! I concluded that my 512MB module was faulty and that the whole problem was now cracked. Wrong! A couple of minutes later, it froze again.

I rebooted a few more times, sometimes getting to the Finder for a few minutes before freezing, sometimes only getting as far as the grey Apple screen.

I tried replacing the 256MB module with the other borrowed 512MB module, but this one consistently only let me boot as far as the grey Apple screen. I gave it 3-4 attempts then decided to put the 256MB module (only) back in, as 5 times out of 10 this one at least gives me a few minutes in Panther (what a privelege! :rolleyes: )

Encouraged by this 'progress', I decided to try and boot from the TechTool CD to see what it could diagnose. I tried a couple of times but it kept freezing on the grey Apple screen.

After a few attempts to reboot from the hard disk I managed to get to the Finder again and mount the TechTool CD on the desktop. I successfully installed the software, registered it and ran a basic test. Everything passed! A few minutes later, it froze again.

Several unsuccesful reboots later, I was able to run another test (I chose intermediate this time). It successfully ran the same tests as the basic test, all passed, then froze while running the intermediate-only hard drive tests.

Then something happened which really worried me. I rebooted and, during the blue progress bar stage, the Mac suddenly cut out and switched itself off. I have never seen a Mac do this before, under any OS. What could cause this to happen?

I rebooted, managed to reach the Finder for a few seconds, then it cut out again. Not good. I left things alone for 5 minutes, then tried another reboot. No cut-out problem this time - just the 'usual' few minutes in the Finder before freezing (this was the first time I was grateful for that happening...). However, when the Finder loaded, it did warn me that the system date was 1971, but I was able to correct this in the System Preferences before the freeze kicked in.

I thought maybe the CL2 aspect of the RAM may have contributed to the Mac cutting out, so I re-intalled my original 512Mb module (only). For the first time, it booted into the Finder using this module, so I ran another TechTool basic test. This time, the tests seemed to stop and start quite a few times before eventually completing, then freezing a minute or so later. Again, all tests reported a pass. Evidently, I cannot take this as conclusive proof that I don't have a hardware problem.

To re-assure myself that I hadn't damaged my Mac, I took out the Panther drive and put back my original OS X 10.1.5 drive and rebooted. So far, no problems - it is just running as normal.

Is there anything else I can try? The fact that I get the same kind of inconsistent freezing with Panther already installed on a hard disk as I do when trying to intall from CD surely suggests that the heart of the problem is not installing Panther, but running Panther? After all, even the Panther installer CD runs a version of Panther, right?

So can we say that then my Superdrive and hard drives are probably OK, and the problem has to be related to the RAM, cache, logic board, or processors? Or could it be something as simple as a faulty ribbon cable?

Given that the problem seems to now have more to do with hardware than Panther, shall I copy this post to the hardware forum?

Thanks again for your time everyone. All suggestions are welcome.

I don't see anywhere in this thread where you mention testing the RAM using 'memtest':
http://www.memtestosx.org/
You should do this asap since your RAM seems to be suspect.

Since you think the problem is more likely to be a hardware problem than a software one, I'll move this thread to the hardware forums for you.

Great diagnostic procedure! You're becoming a pro. :)

IMO; Your symptoms now point mostly toward a failing power supply. Have you checked that the fan in the power supply is spinning?

Oops, yes I have I tested my original 512MB CL3 module with Memtest... I have tried so many things to diagnose this problem, I forget to mention some of them. As suggested in the manual, I ran the test 4 times and it passed each time. I will try running the test on both of the CL2 modules I have borrowed.

Do you happen to know if Memtest does anything different to the RAM tests in Techtool Pro or the Apple Hardware Test? Both of these passed my 512MB CL3 module too.

BTW, many thanks for moving the thread for me.

Thanks! :cool: I wish I didn't have to become a pro just to install Panther though...

Hmmm... are you suggesting this because of the power cut-outs I experienced? I guess it might not be a coincidence that these cut-outs happened when I had the borrowed RAM and Panther hard drive installed (and was rebooting on average once a minute!). Although, as far as I can recall, it has never happened when I run 10.1.5 with all my regular components and peripherals.

Could a failing power supply cause the freezes I experience when trying to run Panther (but not OS X 10.1.5)?. The freezes occur anytime between pressing the power/reboot button and up to around 5 minutes after the Finder has loaded (this the longest Panther has run on my G4 :()

I will check the power supply fan later and let you know what I find.

Jon

OK, I switched my G4 on to check the power supply fan. It seems fine - it isn't noisey and if I put my hand near the vent holes on the back of the case I can feel the air blowing out.

Is there any other way for me to test the power supply or it's fan?

It could be simply coincidental that your power supply chose this time to develop problems. While installing Mac OS X, you're really putting your system through the paces; Running both the CD and HD constantly, expanding and relocating files in the drive, etc. Note, also that the shutdowns occurred when you increased the number of DIMMs.

With a volt meter (under $20 at RS), you could test your power supply from any spare drive connector. Just connect the probes to the Ground (Black) and +5V (Red or Orange) and watch it while you boot your system. The voltage should read between 4.85 and 5.15 volts. Any less indicates the supply is failing.

I wasn't trying to install Panther this time - I had it ready-installed on a hard disk that I borrowed from another G4.

Also, I didn't add more DIMM's - I just took out my existing 512MB DIMM and replaced it with some RAM I borrowed: a 256MB, then a 512MB. Only one module was used at a time, in slot 1 on my motherboard.

Does this make much of a difference to what you're saying? It probably doesn't, but I just wanted to make it clear how I had run the tests.

Do you know if I can install a single DIMM in slot 2 or 3, rather than in slot 1? I'm thinking maybe there is a problem with this slot.

I'll try and get hold of a volt meter to test my power supply unit. Thanks for the info on how to test it. Would a volt meter tell/alert me if there is a momentary drop in voltage? If the power unit is failing, I'm guessing that the voltage could drop momentarily or be constantly low? (as you can probably tell, I'm no electrcial engineer!)

Thanks again for your advice.

Jon

Yes. They'll work in any slot.

Likely, it would gradually drop until the point that the computer freezes or shuts down.

I think I am clutching at straws now, but I will check to see if installing the RAM in the other slots makes any difference to stability. Who knows, it might just work!

If it doesn't, then I think the Firewire Target Disk method is the next thing to try, as soon as I can borrow my colleague's G4 PowerBook.

After that, then I could look at testing the power supply. But if I were to buy a voltage meter and find that there is a voltage problem, I don't think I have the experience or knowledge to replace the power supply. I'm comfortable installing drives, PCI cards and RAM - is replacing a PSU much more involved?

There's an interesting reply to my post on this subject over on the Apple Discussions forum:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/we....4@.68a3e05d/6
(see post 3.1.1 - no. 7)

It seems Edward is having the same problems as me. However, his power supply unit has been replaced and his CPU reseated - and still no Panther :(

Jon

Just a shot in the dark here... I had a client install a new processor in a sawtooth last week and had a black screen… Turned out, he hadn't installed the most recent firmware! I thought everyone installed those!

Have you checked the firmware revision on your Mac? If you can boot an OS9 CD, System Profiler should report the firmware revision: $004.28f1 (or later). From OS X, System Profiler should report revision: 4.2.8F1 (or later).

Software Update isn't giving me a firmware update option and, quite a while ago, I downloaded the latest firmware updater for my G4 directly from Apple's website. When I ran the update, it told me that the firmware didn't need updating.

I will double-check the revision numbers you have given me.

I'm gonna try intalling the RAM in another slot and try intalling Panther from Firewire target disk mode soon. Will post my results here.

Thanks again!