Can't install Panther on my Quicksilver G4
 

HARDWARE:
- Quicksilver G4 1Ghz Dual Processor (firmware is up to date)
- 512MB RAM (factory installed)
- Superdrive (factory installed)
- 80GB ATA internal hard disk (factory installed)
- Maxtor 60GB ATA internal hard disk (taken from my previous Mac and installed as a slave drive to the above 80GB disk)
- Canon scanner, connected directly to one of the USB ports
- Apple 3G iPod dock, connected to the Firewire port
- Apple keyboard, MS Intellimouse, Griffin iMic and a Formac monitor are connected to the G4 via an Iogear KVM switch (shared with a PC, all work fine)
- Ethernet crossover cable, connected to my PC.
- No other cards or devices are installed.

SOFTWARE:
- Retail Panther disks ('Version 10.3.2' is printed on the CD's)
- OS X 10.1.5 (with no Classic/OS9) currently installed on the G4, on both hard disks

THE PROBLEM:
I cannot install Panther. Every time I try, the installer freezes at different stages of the process:

- During boot-up from the Panther CD; OR
- When clicking through the various set up screens; OR
- When checking the target volume; OR
- At any time during the actual installation process (the furthest I got was around 70%).

When the installer freezes during boot-up (grey apple screen), the spinning circle of lines stops and the caps lock key will not light up when pressed.

When it freezes during setup or installation, the caps lock key will not light up when pressed, the cursor will not move and the blue progress bar stops - but, oddly, the animated 'blue fluid' effect in the bar continues to cycle.

I have tried the following temporary changes to my set-up, all of which have made no noticeable difference:

- Connecting the monitor, Apple keyboard and (original) mouse directly to the G4, rather than through the KVM switch and disconnecting the iPod dock and scanner
- Disconnecting the Maxtor 60Gb slave drive
- Replacing the Superdrive with a Sony CD drive taken from my PC, then running the Panther discs in this drive
- Using OS X 10.1.5's disk utility on my slave drive to erase the 80GB drive, then trying to install Panther on the completely reformatted 80Gb drive (I thought this was the best way of ensuring that the installation wasn't failing because of any disk/permissions issues, as there are no means of repairing permissions in OS X 10.1.5 that I am aware of)

Normally when I try to install Panther, I insert the Installer Disk 1, open the 'Install Mac OS X' application, click the Restart button, enter my admin password and reboot, as instructed. I have also tried inserting the disk, NOT opening 'Install Mac OS X', and instead rebooting from the Apple menu and holding the 'C' key down to force the G4 to boot from the install disk. When I do this, it doesn't freeze as before - it 'hangs' on the grey apple screen and the spinning circle of lines just keeps spinnning, without ever going any further. Does this provide any insight to what might be going wrong?

An IT support contractor who looks after our Macs at the place I work suggested that I take out the 80GB hard disk, take it into work, connect it up inside a Mac there, install Panther, then put the disk back into my G4 at home. Could this work?

I have posted this problem before on the Apple Discussion forums, but (obviously) I still haven't solved it. It was suggested that my retail Panther discs were faulty and that I should obtain replacements from Apple. I couldn't find any information on Apple's website to say how I go about replacing my Panther disks so I decided to make do with OS X 10.1.5 until I had time to deal with the problem again.

Since then, I have used the same disks to successfully install Panther on my old G3 Powerbook, which surely indicates that the disks are NOT faulty and do not need replacing? (Please note - I have no intention to break any software license by using my disks to install Panther on two machines. The Powerbook is not really powerful enough to run OS X comfortably, so I have erased the disk and re-installed OS 9)

I would really appreciate any suggestions to try and fix this problem, or at least diagnose what is actually going wrong during the Panther installation.

Thanks for your time!

Keep it simple. Disconnect the slave drive. Disconnect all cables/peripherals except the keyboard and mouse. Reseat your RAM.

Next, run the Hardware Test CD that came with your machine. If there is a hardware problem, that should tell you.

Assuming no hardware problems, proceed to install Panther using the Archive and Install method. Be very patient at all stages, from booting the install CD to the actual install itself. Resist any temptation to think the machine has crashed or the install has failed until at least 60 minutes has elapsed.

Report the results here...

Chris

Before I try disconnecting everything, I will try your suggestion of leaving the machine for an hour or so when the installer freezes/stalls, as the longest I have left it is 5-10 minutes.

I have run the Apple Hardware Test before, and it didn't find any problems, but I will definitely run it again with all the peripherals disconnected, just to make sure.

When you say 'reseat' the RAM, I take it you mean I should take it out then put it back in again and make sure it is fitted properly, right? Is there anything I should look out for when I reseat it?

I have been thinking about getting Techtool Pro to see if it could find any problems. Do you know if Techtool Pro tests anything different to the Apple Hardware Test?

I don't have much spare time to spend fixing this problem, so it may be a while before I get to try out all of your suggestions.

I will post back as soon as I get any kind of results, good or bad.

Thanks again for your advice Chris.

Jon

Jon,

Those were just the things I could think of. If the hardware test CD doesn't find anything, I doubt anything is wrong--but you never know? I do think TechTool Pro checks more than Apple's test utility, but it costs a lot more too. It would be worth it to discount the obvious causes before you spend money on it.

By re-seating the RAM, I do mean removing it from it's socket and putting it back in, making sure to seat it firmly. Strange as it sounds, I've seen it where blowing out the socket with compressed air helped. Also, I once had a G3 Blue and White that exhibited symptoms like yours and I fixed it by re-seating the processor. I'm not sure if your processor is socketed, but if you, you should try re-seating it too.

As for being patient and just letting it run, it just makes sense because you never know how long something "should" take. We do know that it shouldn't take an hour, though.

Chris

Where to find excellent step-by-step troubleshooting counsel
 

Jon, the best advice would be for you to go to the "Generic OS X Troubleshooting List" stuck to the top of this System forum. It covers hardware, system, and software issues that arise in OS X.

If you're in a hurry, go to page 7 of the thread to posts #125, #126, and #127. They do an excellent job of concisely and systematically summarizing the 124 posts that precede them. Taken together, those three posts create a systematic, step-by-step troubleshooting checklist that is a consensus of a number of contributing experts.

If you have the time, you'd get quite an education reading through the first 124 posts, too. But please do not post any questions there--that thread is for posting of tips on troubleshooting in OS X.

For my own use, I copied into a file posts #125, #126, and 127 and then printed them up so that I could read them while following directions and executing any of the steps.

Should you run into any problems or questions after you've reviewed and are following the progressive troubleshooting steps, please do a keyword/s search in this forum to see if another thread has the answers you need. If not, please start another thread on the particular issue you're facing. I've found the pros and other veteran Mac users who hang out in this forum exceptionally helpful.

Respectfully, Norm
-------------------------
733-mhz G4 QuickSilver (2001) running OS 10.3.7

One other idea...you could boot the Quicksilver into firewire target disk mode. Then boot your Powerbook from the Panther install CD. Connect the two machines together with Firewire and install Panther on the Quicksilver that way.

Chris

Thanks again for the tips Chris.

Given that OS X 10.1.5 intalls fine every time without a hitch, I am really annoyed that Apple has made Panther so fussy about hardware - especially as my G4 is, theoretically, more than capable of running it.

If there are practical reasons why Panther is so fussy, why didn't Apple design the installer to include a suitable hardware compatability test? Or, at the very least, ensure that the installer gives some kind of feedback to the user to indicate why it cannot install, or simply say that there is a problem - rather than just freezing up.

I'll perhaps resort to Techtool Pro if all else fails. Of course I could take my G4 to an authorised Apple service centre to be examined, but I like to fix my Mac problems myself (especially as the G4 is well out of its warranty). This is the only time I have had a problem I couldn't figure out myself in 13 years of using Macs!

I don't have any means of blasting the RAM socket with compressed air, but I will certainly give it a visible check for dust or dirt when I remove the memory.

Processors are one of the few things I have never needed to dabble with, so I would be a bit nervous about trying this. Is is fairly easy to reseat the processors? How do I tell if they are socketed?

Thanks Norm - I will have a look through the posts you recommended before I plan my next Panther installation attempt...

If the processor is socketed (I'm pretty sure yours isn't) it will have a small lever on the side. When the lever is released, it removes the force holding all of the pins in place. This allows the processor to be removed and replaced easily.

Chris

Hi Chris

I did some searching on Google to see if anyone else had achieved something similar. Coincidentally, the first (and best) result I found is right here on this forum! The article is here:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...20913061228333

This situation relates to a Jaguar rather than a Panther install, but I reckon it must be worth a try.

My G3 Powerbook does not have Firewire, but I do have access to a new G4 Powerbook (I will need to buy a firewire cable).

Would this be any different to taking the hard disk out my G4, installing it in a trouble-free Mac, installing Panther on it then putting the disk back? This was something else I considered doing, but I am concerned that there will be hardware-specific aspects of the Panther installation that won't translate from Mac to Mac, perhaps causing Panther to be unstable - or to not work at all?

I also have access to an old G4 466MHz tower (non quicksilver) into which I could connect my G4's hard disk and install Panther from there.

I don't suppose you have any idea which option would have the best chance of success? (G4 powerbook or old G4 tower)

Thanks again for your time and effort on this Chris.

(I am certainly getting a much more positive and useful repsonse here than on the Apple Discussions or MacWorld forums)

Jon, you asked what TechTool Pro 4.0.3 can do for you
 

Link to Micromat TechTool Pro 4.0.3 info

Jon, I was surprised when I visited the Micromat TechTool Pro webpage that it didn't go into detail on the tests. By the way, when I clicked on the Buy button and then scrolled down the page, I noticed that one can get a $40 discount if you're already using any of a number of other utilities including the competition's and old versions.

As a volunteer beta tester, I donated my services before the public release of TTP 4.0.3 and there's a great deal this utility does and does well.

I just launched the application and here's a partial list of tests, repairs and procedures.

Hardware Tests: Cache, Clock, FireWire, Main Memory, Mathematics, Network, Processor, USB, Video Memory

Drive Tests: Disk Controller, Read Write, S.M.A.R.T., Surface Scan

Volume: Tests and Repairs Volume Structure

Files: 1. Tests Files 2. Tests and Repairs Finder Info

It also does Directory Maintenance (Micromat's equivalent of Alsoft's DiskWarrior "Rebuild Directory," and a whole bunch of other things.

On my QuickSilver, I have it programmed to do SMART testing and automatic diagnostics of Volume Structure (they recommend half-hourly or hourly checks (I can't remember), but I just have it check both every 24 hours. And if it finds any problems, I gave it an email address to which to send me alerts. But because I clone my volumes on a regular rotation basis, I don't use the "Protection" feature that maintains invisible files of volume structure.

I have no affiliation whatsoever with Micromat other than as an unpaid volunteer beta tester, but--as is obvious--I've found TechTool Pro a must-have utility.

Respectfully, Norm

Jon, I neglected to mention something that was the biggest must-have feature of TTP for me before I added a second hard drive and which I also used while I was awaiting shipment of a replacement for the original hard drive when it bit the dust. It also would be especially useful to powerbook owners who don't like to carry around a 2nd drive or CDs.

The eDrive is the software equivalent of a 2nd bootable hard drive. When you boot an eDrive, it gives you the option to use Apple's Disk Utility as well as TechTool Pro 4.0.3. I and others have discovered that one can drag Alsoft's DiskWarrior 3.0.2 into the eDrive's applications folder and launch it from there. The best of both worlds.

Respectfully, Norm

Jon,

Either the G4 Powerbook or the G4 tower should work. So would moving the hard drive from one machine to another. I think connecting the machines with a firewire cable is the simpler of the two, but moving a drive isn't hard either.

Mac OS X don't differ from one machine to another so there won't be any hardware specific aspects to worry about.

Chris

Hi Norm,

Thanks for all the TechTool info. I think I am pretty much sold on this now! ;)

Seriously though, I was thinking of buying it especially to help me diagnose any issues with my G4 that may be causing problems with installing Panther, but there is something I have realised from looking at all tales of woe in the various support forums I have been posting in over the last couple of days: I need to do regular pro-active checking and maintence on my Mac's hardware and software to keep it healthy. This is something I have become rather lazy about since moving from OS 9 to OS X, as up to now I have been relatively problem-free, compared to all the things I had to fix on my older mac in MacOS 6 thru 9.

Techtool's automated checking sounds very useful - does it impede system performance at all during when it is checking?

I assume that TechTool Pro is shipped with a bootable disc? (the website doesn't tell me). I won't be able to install it until I get Panther running, as Micromat don't provide a version that works with OS X 10.1.

I think I understand your description of what the eDrive function does. Based on this understanding, one idea comes to mind: would I be able to copy the Panther installer disk to the eDrive and run it from there? Even if this is possible, I am not sure how it could help, but it may be worth experimenting with.

(I just figured out how to do block quotes with the author's name... not exactly intuitive!)

I think the G4 PowerBook/Firewire target disk mode is going to be the path of least resistance for me. Do you know if there is a specific kind of Firewire cable I need? Would this one do?

If installing Panther from the PowerBook is successful, and my G4 boots and runs OK from the installation, the only problem I am left with is that I will have to employ this method if ever I need to re-install Panther. Having said that, I intend to invest in TechTool and DiskWarrior to help keep things running sweetly - and Tiger is out soon too, which will surely install like a dream :rolleyes:

That cable will work perfectly.

Chris

I just thought of another symptom/possible cause for the Panther installer problem
 

I have another problem with my G4 that, until now, I had not considered as being related to my Panther installation problem:

My Superdrive data transfer rate is very slow when copying files to my hard disks (it's fine for burning discs). I hardly ever need to use the drive, so I tend to forget how slow it is.

The two hard disks copy files from one to the other at a reasonable speed.

I just checked the drive information in the Apple Disk Utility:

- The 80GB factory-installed hard disk (ATA) is set to Master
- The 60GB Maxtor hard disk (ATA) is set to Slave
- The Superdrive (ATA) is set to Master

The two hard disks are installed on the same data cable (they are on top of one another in the bottom of the case), and the Superdrive *appears* to have its own separate data cable. Am I right in thinking that the Superdrive is on its own separate bus, and therefore it doesn't matter that there are two drives set to Master in my configuration?

If there is a problem with the Superdrive or its jumper settings, then I guess that could have a detrimental effect on the Panther installer, and/or my data transfer rates.

As I mentioned in my original post, I temporarily replaced the Superdrive with a Sony optical drive and disconnected my Maxtor drive to see if that would solve the installation problem. It was several months ago when I did this, so I can't remember now what (if any) changes I made to the jumper settings on the drives.

Any thoughts?

(I don't mind you calling me stupid if this turns out to be a eureka moment!)

JonB,

I've just read through the posts and I'm wondering if you've tried disconnecting the scanner and iPod dock yet. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those two were the source our your trouble.

Yes I have already tried disconnecting both of these:

Thanks anyway :)

I have not observed the slightest hiccup on my G4.

Yes: ships with CD. You can perform most---not all--operations directly from the CD. I recall stern warnings against launching the optimization sub-program from the CD because there's no swap space on a CD and optimization either has to be run from another hard drive or an eDrive. Optimization should be low on your agenda, if it at all. I do not remember whether you can do Volume Structure repairs or maintenance from the CD. Ask in the Micromat-sponsored forum among the MacFixIt.com forums and mention what OS version you're running now.

No. The eDrive has to be installed from the CD. I don't know whether Micromat sells a downloadable version of TTP 4.0.x and if that requires that you have a certain OS 10.x.x version for it to work. Check their website and/or their MacFixIt.com forum.

Respectfully, Norm

Norm - Thanks for the additional info regarding Techtool. I have ordered my copy today, along with DiskWarrior and a Firewire cable (so that I can try chabig's suggestion of intalling Panther using a Powerbook and target disk mode).

I don't suppose you have any thoughts on my previous post regarding my drive configuration? Have I got one too many masters?

Thanks,

Jon

Somebody else will have to field this one. I only have two internal hard drives, one plugged directly into the logic board bus, the other into an ATA PCI card channel.

I wonder whether it would be appropriate to place your question on master-slave drive configuration and numbers in the Hardware forum?

Respectfully, Norm

Still no Panther... :(
 

Chris, I stripped my Mac down to the bare essentials. I disconnected the slave drive and removed all peripherals, including the ethernet cable and KVM switch, resulting in the following set-up: original 80GB hard disk (still set to master), monitor, keyboard, mouse (plugged into the keyboard), Superdrive (still set to master).

I then removed the 512MB RAM module and inspected the module and the slot. For what it's worth, they looked OK to me. The inside of the G4 was fairly dusty, so I give it a quick spring clean with a small battery-powered vaccuum cleaner. I re-inserted the RAM, ensuring it was pushed in firmly, and fastened the two securing levers into place.

I closed the G4's case, then booted it up from the original Apple hardware test disk. I ran the extended test. Each stage of the test resulted in a Pass. At the end of the test, the software confirmed that it had found no hardware problems.

I rebooted from the Panther disk, which managed to reach the installation set-up stage (as it has sometimes done before, with or without various peripherals installed). I chose my language settings etc, but couldn't use the 'archive and install' method becuase I decided yesterday to completely erase this disk using OS X 10.1.5's Disk Utility, running from my slave drive. So I chose the ordinary OS X install option. I didn't customise the installation and proceeded to install.

A short way into the disk scan, the installer froze, in the same way I have described previously (no mouse movement, no caps lock light etc).

I rebooted. Again, it managed to get through the boot stage and reach the installer software. I attempted to run the installer's disk utility (I wanted to check the hard disk), but this immediately froze before it got a chance to load.

I rebooted again. Reached the installer software. Tried a custom installation, switching off all font, application, printer and language options, leaving just the system and BSD options. Started the installer, skipped the disk scan. This time the installation got part way (around 30%?) before it froze. For the record, I have managed to get this far (and further) in previous attempts with most of my peripherals attached.

I rebooted and managed to reach the installer. This time, I opened up the case so that I could hear any disk activity. I selected the same minimal custom install, started the installation and listened to the Superdrive and activity. After a few minutes the installer froze and the drives stopped making any read/write noises. I left it for half an hour, came back, and it was still frozen with no audible disk activity (I was running out of time, so I couldn't spare 60 minutes).

I rebooted again. The grey Apple screen appeared with the spinning circle of lines, and it stuck there. 10 minutes later, it suddenly froze. Up until it froze, I could distinctly hear disk activity coming from the Superdrive, then nothing.

At this point my instincts were telling me that my 80GB hard disk was the problem, despite the fact that I had erased it. I decided to disconnect it, reconnect my slave drive and try to install on there (I have a partition on there with no system). This attempt froze at the boot stage, so I gave up... Maybe I should have set this drive to Master?

I think I now suspect both my Superdrive and my hard disk (or could it be the on-board disk controller?)

I have ordered DiskWarrior and TechTool, which should arrive tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if my G4 will boot from these disks, as I understand that they feature bootable 10.2.8 and 10.3.x systems, respectively. Hopefully they will boot so that I can run some more hardware tests. If they don't boot, then I guess the hard disks are OK and the problem is with the Superdrive, memory, or worse...

I have also ordered the Firewire cable, which should arrive in a couple of days, so I can try the target disk mode idea you suggested.

Jon

I think no-one else suggested that maybe your installation CD is bad. If not suggested before, try copying it to another CD using toast, if possible, and see if you can boot and install from the copy. If it fails to copy, that may well point to the problem as well. Even if your CD works on another machine it could be just dirty or corrupted enough to cause problems on one drive and not another.

I may have missed it, but which Panther installation CD is it? Was is purchased stand alone? If it was for a G5, that could cause problems if there are separate install disks that come with G5 systems.

Jon,

Here's to your patience buddy. I think you've done about everything that you could possible do. If the firewire disk mode doesn't work, then I suppose you'll to try installing the hard drive in another machine.

Chris

Yes, someone on Apple's Discussions forum suggested that the disks could be faulty. I agree with you that, even though my discs work on my G3 Powerbook, they may have some subtle fault that my G4 is sensitive to. Having said this, I did try swapping my Superdrive for a Sony DVD drive, but that didn't work any better. Also, I have successfully made a bootable duplicate using Apple's Disk Copy tool, but it has made no difference: it gives me the same problems as the original disk.

They are retail Panther disks ('Version 10.3.2' is printed on the CD's). If I were to buy another set of disks from Apple now, do you know if they would be a later version of Panther, say 10.3.5? (Naturally, I am very reluctant to do this).

Thanks for your suggestions :)

Jon

I still think your problem could be the RAM or your processor. Your putting a lot more work into both when installing than you will with the hardware test CD. Do you have other RAM DIMM(s) to try?

You could well be right. I really hope it isn't the processor (there's two, so I'm guessing this would be very expensive to fix or replace).

I have some RAM in an old G4 466 single processor that I could borrow to test. I am fairly sure it has the same type (SDRAM PC133), and I know this G4 466 runs Panther, which is a good sign. I will try it later and post back the result.

Thanks for the idea :)

Just had an idea: the G4 466's hard disk has Panther installed on it, so I could try installing this disk into my G4 1Ghz DP and see if it will boot from that...

Some progress, but still no cigar...
 

I sat down this evening for yet another 'let's try and install Panther' session. This time, I had the following resources to try out:

• TechTool Pro 4 CD;
• A hard drive with Panther already installed, taken from a G4 466;
• 2 x SDRAM PC133 CL2 memory modules - a 512MB and a 256MB, taken from the same G4 466 (my existing module is a factory-installed 512MB SDRAM PC133 CL3 module, but as far as I am aware the only difference between CL2 and CL3 is that CL3 is faster, right?)

With my G4 still stripped of all but the bare minimum of peripherals ( keyboard, mouse and monitor) I took out my hard drive and replaced it with the borrowed drive with Panther already installed and booted it up. It got as far as showing the desktop, but before the dock or Finder menu bar got a chance to show, it froze.

I switched off the Mac, took out my 512MB module and replaced it with the borrowed 256MB module, then booted again. This time the Finder and dock loaded and I was able to click around in Panther. Great! I concluded that my 512MB module was faulty and that the whole problem was now cracked. Wrong! A couple of minutes later, it froze again.

I rebooted a few more times, sometimes getting to the Finder for a few minutes before freezing, sometimes only getting as far as the grey Apple screen.

I tried replacing the 256MB module with the other borrowed 512MB module, but this one consistently only let me boot as far as the grey Apple screen. I gave it 3-4 attempts then decided to put the 256MB module (only) back in, as 5 times out of 10 this one at least gives me a few minutes in Panther (what a privelege! :rolleyes: )

Encouraged by this 'progress', I decided to try and boot from the TechTool CD to see what it could diagnose. I tried a couple of times but it kept freezing on the grey Apple screen.

After a few attempts to reboot from the hard disk I managed to get to the Finder again and mount the TechTool CD on the desktop. I successfully installed the software, registered it and ran a basic test. Everything passed! A few minutes later, it froze again.

Several unsuccesful reboots later, I was able to run another test (I chose intermediate this time). It successfully ran the same tests as the basic test, all passed, then froze while running the intermediate-only hard drive tests.

Then something happened which really worried me. I rebooted and, during the blue progress bar stage, the Mac suddenly cut out and switched itself off. I have never seen a Mac do this before, under any OS. What could cause this to happen?

I rebooted, managed to reach the Finder for a few seconds, then it cut out again. Not good. I left things alone for 5 minutes, then tried another reboot. No cut-out problem this time - just the 'usual' few minutes in the Finder before freezing (this was the first time I was grateful for that happening...). However, when the Finder loaded, it did warn me that the system date was 1971, but I was able to correct this in the System Preferences before the freeze kicked in.

I thought maybe the CL2 aspect of the RAM may have contributed to the Mac cutting out, so I re-intalled my original 512Mb module (only). For the first time, it booted into the Finder using this module, so I ran another TechTool basic test. This time, the tests seemed to stop and start quite a few times before eventually completing, then freezing a minute or so later. Again, all tests reported a pass. Evidently, I cannot take this as conclusive proof that I don't have a hardware problem.

To re-assure myself that I hadn't damaged my Mac, I took out the Panther drive and put back my original OS X 10.1.5 drive and rebooted. So far, no problems - it is just running as normal.

Is there anything else I can try? The fact that I get the same kind of inconsistent freezing with Panther already installed on a hard disk as I do when trying to intall from CD surely suggests that the heart of the problem is not installing Panther, but running Panther? After all, even the Panther installer CD runs a version of Panther, right?

So can we say that then my Superdrive and hard drives are probably OK, and the problem has to be related to the RAM, cache, logic board, or processors? Or could it be something as simple as a faulty ribbon cable?

Given that the problem seems to now have more to do with hardware than Panther, shall I copy this post to the hardware forum?

Thanks again for your time everyone. All suggestions are welcome.

I don't see anywhere in this thread where you mention testing the RAM using 'memtest':
http://www.memtestosx.org/
You should do this asap since your RAM seems to be suspect.

Since you think the problem is more likely to be a hardware problem than a software one, I'll move this thread to the hardware forums for you.

Great diagnostic procedure! You're becoming a pro. :)

IMO; Your symptoms now point mostly toward a failing power supply. Have you checked that the fan in the power supply is spinning?

Oops, yes I have I tested my original 512MB CL3 module with Memtest... I have tried so many things to diagnose this problem, I forget to mention some of them. As suggested in the manual, I ran the test 4 times and it passed each time. I will try running the test on both of the CL2 modules I have borrowed.

Do you happen to know if Memtest does anything different to the RAM tests in Techtool Pro or the Apple Hardware Test? Both of these passed my 512MB CL3 module too.

BTW, many thanks for moving the thread for me.

Thanks! :cool: I wish I didn't have to become a pro just to install Panther though...

Hmmm... are you suggesting this because of the power cut-outs I experienced? I guess it might not be a coincidence that these cut-outs happened when I had the borrowed RAM and Panther hard drive installed (and was rebooting on average once a minute!). Although, as far as I can recall, it has never happened when I run 10.1.5 with all my regular components and peripherals.

Could a failing power supply cause the freezes I experience when trying to run Panther (but not OS X 10.1.5)?. The freezes occur anytime between pressing the power/reboot button and up to around 5 minutes after the Finder has loaded (this the longest Panther has run on my G4 :()

I will check the power supply fan later and let you know what I find.

Jon

OK, I switched my G4 on to check the power supply fan. It seems fine - it isn't noisey and if I put my hand near the vent holes on the back of the case I can feel the air blowing out.

Is there any other way for me to test the power supply or it's fan?

It could be simply coincidental that your power supply chose this time to develop problems. While installing Mac OS X, you're really putting your system through the paces; Running both the CD and HD constantly, expanding and relocating files in the drive, etc. Note, also that the shutdowns occurred when you increased the number of DIMMs.

With a volt meter (under $20 at RS), you could test your power supply from any spare drive connector. Just connect the probes to the Ground (Black) and +5V (Red or Orange) and watch it while you boot your system. The voltage should read between 4.85 and 5.15 volts. Any less indicates the supply is failing.

I wasn't trying to install Panther this time - I had it ready-installed on a hard disk that I borrowed from another G4.

Also, I didn't add more DIMM's - I just took out my existing 512MB DIMM and replaced it with some RAM I borrowed: a 256MB, then a 512MB. Only one module was used at a time, in slot 1 on my motherboard.

Does this make much of a difference to what you're saying? It probably doesn't, but I just wanted to make it clear how I had run the tests.

Do you know if I can install a single DIMM in slot 2 or 3, rather than in slot 1? I'm thinking maybe there is a problem with this slot.

I'll try and get hold of a volt meter to test my power supply unit. Thanks for the info on how to test it. Would a volt meter tell/alert me if there is a momentary drop in voltage? If the power unit is failing, I'm guessing that the voltage could drop momentarily or be constantly low? (as you can probably tell, I'm no electrcial engineer!)

Thanks again for your advice.

Jon

Yes. They'll work in any slot.

Likely, it would gradually drop until the point that the computer freezes or shuts down.

I think I am clutching at straws now, but I will check to see if installing the RAM in the other slots makes any difference to stability. Who knows, it might just work!

If it doesn't, then I think the Firewire Target Disk method is the next thing to try, as soon as I can borrow my colleague's G4 PowerBook.

After that, then I could look at testing the power supply. But if I were to buy a voltage meter and find that there is a voltage problem, I don't think I have the experience or knowledge to replace the power supply. I'm comfortable installing drives, PCI cards and RAM - is replacing a PSU much more involved?

There's an interesting reply to my post on this subject over on the Apple Discussions forum:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/we....4@.68a3e05d/6
(see post 3.1.1 - no. 7)

It seems Edward is having the same problems as me. However, his power supply unit has been replaced and his CPU reseated - and still no Panther :(

Jon

Just a shot in the dark here... I had a client install a new processor in a sawtooth last week and had a black screen… Turned out, he hadn't installed the most recent firmware! I thought everyone installed those!

Have you checked the firmware revision on your Mac? If you can boot an OS9 CD, System Profiler should report the firmware revision: $004.28f1 (or later). From OS X, System Profiler should report revision: 4.2.8F1 (or later).

Software Update isn't giving me a firmware update option and, quite a while ago, I downloaded the latest firmware updater for my G4 directly from Apple's website. When I ran the update, it told me that the firmware didn't need updating.

I will double-check the revision numbers you have given me.

I'm gonna try intalling the RAM in another slot and try intalling Panther from Firewire target disk mode soon. Will post my results here.

Thanks again!