iBook G4 vs. iMac G5
 

Not sure if this is the proper place to post but I am in desperate need for some assistance!

Sometime in the relatively near future (within a few months or so), I will be buying a computer for college and I think I can budget about $2,000 for the computer (including software and printer, cables, etc) and am set on a Mac. The problem now is which to buy: iMac G5 or iBook G4.

If I buy the iBook, I can afford the top-of-the-line model complete with 1.33GHz processor, SuperDrive, and 768MB of RAM and I believe it's a decent computer with great portability. I recently went to my neighborhood Apple Store and played around with one for about an hour and a half and loved every minute of it!

However, then there is the iMac G5. For about the same price, I can get the faster, 64-bit G5 (1.8GHz), much larger screen, 1GB of faster RAM, and twice the hard drive capacity. I also played around with one of these at the Apple Store and was equally impressed.

So the question is which is more important? I've never owned a Mac or any laptop before so the truth is I don't know. Since I'm not actually in college yet, I don't know whether I'll even need the portability of an iBook. I know that no matter which computer I get, it'll be mainly used for internet, MS Office, and GarageBand (I play keyboard). Now this may change once I get to college but again, I simply don't know.

If anyone out there would like to share their experiences with either machine, please do so! I appreciate anyone who replies and will take everyone's advice into consideration!

Thanks for everything!
--Alan

many thieves in college, get an older model and save money.

It depends a lot on your living situation and your work habits.
Many college students end up doing much of their course work in the library since there are too many distractions at home. A laptop would be a must for this. But definitely buy a security cable and keep it locked to your desk (or whatever) at all times.

All the students I know who have a laptop find it very valuable. All the ones with desktops wish they had a laptop.

All of those systems are more than you need for what you plan to do. No point in G5 power you won't use. Get the iBook, which will provide more value. And as others said, get a lock and keep and eye on it.

I agree with Carlos and others, especially considering the kind of work you say you'll be using it for. It doesn't sound like you need that extra power, and the portability is really helpful. My son in college has a G4 Cube and often wishes he could take his set-up with him to the library or even to some of his classes (not to mention home). And, yes, do get some kind of security cable, set up firmware password protection, disable auto-login, password protect your screensaver, etc.

It is not nice to lose your hard drive and/or computer when it has major assignments or the research for papers on it.

I think you should also budget a backup device and software that will make a complete, bootable, backup. I would suggest an external hard drive the size of the one in the computer, because the backup is relatively fast and can be unattended (no disk changes).

this will give you an idea:

CMS Products - World's Easiest Backup
http://www.cmsperipheralsinc.com/

Wow, this really depends on your major.
 

I love my PowerBook G4 Al, but it would do me no good at all as my only computer as I am in computer science and electrical engineering courses (done in 5 months then grad school, ouch...). On a regular basis I am assigned tasks that cannot be completed on a Mac because of the limited software availability. (Please do not flame me, I'm just being honest). We use Orcad's PSpice for Electrical Engineering, and that takes up a lot of my time. Sure, a lot of programming tools run perfectly well on the Mac, and most normal coursework in C, C++, Java, etc... will be fine on the Mac, but when it comes to programming things like embedded microcontrollers, most of the software for accomplishing this task is written for windows (like Metrowerks Codewarrior for HC(S)04). Then there's the ever annoying compatiblity issues between documents I've written and presentations I've created using Word and Powerpoint for Mac not maintaining their format or running correctly on a PC even though I've run a compatibility report.

I've got several computers (1 workstation, 2 PC's, 3 laptops), so having a Mac doesn't really limit my capabilities, but for an Engineering student that needs to be on the same page as everyone else for group projects and assignments, a PC is the way to go.

I'm just making an assumption that you aren't going into fashion design because you're actually bright enough to use this forum. If you aren't going into engineering or sciences, then I'd say go for the Mac because I don't forsee any major difficulties. If you're going to live on campus, then get the desktop iMac. You'll appreciate the faster processor and the larger monitor. If you live off campus, and don't want to use your schools computer labs, then get the laptop.

By the way, for $2k you can get a PC that will outperform a iBook G4 in every category and have a larger screen. Don't even mention the "security" issues or instability of PC's. If 95% of computer users were Mac-heads, you'd see just as many totally trashed computer systems. A well updated, virus protected PC (like the one I'm using now) will run extremely reliably. I'd say it's a bit more reliable than running Unreal Tourny '04 on my PowerBook that crashes the whole system when I mistakenly hit the voice chat key (which I've now moved far away from my normal keystrokes). For the record, I've never seen a "blue screen" of "death" or any other type on this machine, and it's on 24x7. The only reboots are for hardware installs or major driver updates, you'll get the same on a Mac.

I don't know, the my Mac is a toy to me. I bought it because I am a computing nut, and I wanted the benefits of unix with a great interface (close but no cigar on my linux boxes). For the real world where cost, performance, and compatibility are issues, I can't recommend a Mac to someone that does not already have a PC that they can fall back to in case of some odd incompatibility.

:(What can I say, the PowerBook G4 with OSX hasn't been all that Apple said it was going to be. I didn't mind the price, I love the interface, the performance is so-so, but c'mon after how many years Apple still doesn't get that they need to make damn well sure that Apples play well with Microsoft. Of course, my conspiracy theorist hat comes on when I realize that Apple really is just the "designer high end" branch of Microsoft itself.:(

It is true that specialized software like that is often only available on Windows, but I think electrical engineering may be one of the few fields where specialized software is regularly used by students.
(And just for interest, I'm currently working in an EE startup where 4 of the 8 electrical engineers use Mac powerbooks as their primary computers. Of course there are desktop Windows machines also available for use with some of the specialized software.)

That statement is verging on the unacceptable for these forums. Please try not to be deliberately insulting (to anyone).

I won't argue with you about the engineering since I don't have experience there, but science (physics) is my field and I don't think a science student would have any disadvantage with a Mac. Macs are gaining more and more share in science at the university level.

This argument is frequently mentioned, but I think it is almost totally specious. There are excellent reasons (to do with the base OS) why Macs are more easily secured than Windows machines. This is not the place for such a discussion - start a new thread if you want to pursue it.

In fact, Macs do "play well" with Windows machines - they network easily and exchange files without trouble. Most people do not experience your troubles with exchanging MS Office documents - and besides, that would be something that only Microsoft could fix, not Apple.

Thank you to everyone who has replied thus far! I've read all of the posts and considered everything that has been said.

At the moment and after talking with my sister who is in college and who desperately wishes she had a laptop, I am now leaning more towards the iBook than the iMac. Even though I just went back to CompUSA and noticed a definate difference b/w the two, I think that the iBook will make up for any missing performance with its ultra portability. Also, a neighbor has a 12in iBook (base model) and I enjoy playing with it and think I could definately live with it (I should be so lucky and fortunate!). If I just wanted another computer to replace my current desktop, I'd probably go with the iMac but I think that in the long run, even though I'd be paying a premium for portability (and for buying Mac!), it'll pay for itself when it comes with me to the library and to class (and home on the holidays).

If anyone has any further comments, please don't hesitate to post! Thanks again to all who have posted.

--Alan

Sorry..can't let this pass. It has been covered numerous times that even if the installed base of OS X and Windows was equal, Windows would still have more problems, due to basic architectural differences between OS X and Windows. One example (article was written before SP2, but much still applies):
Microsoft Windows: Insecure by Design

It is true, though, that a well-maintained PC can be a secure, reliable machine. It just takes a bit more effort than on a Mac.

Go for the iBook!
Definitely. You’ll be grateful for the portability. You might even want to consider the 12" version – handy enough to go anywhere. At your lecture, in the library, at the coffee shop, visiting your folks, or even at the beach when you want some time to think – and inspiration comes.

Get lots of RAM and a good deal on MS Office Student Edition. But wait until you get Tiger included or are promised a free upgrade, before you buy your Mac. (Tiger is the new version of the Mac OS due in early 2005.)

And do purchase a large external FireWire disk, f.ex. a One-Touch Maxtor. That way, your daily back-up is done with the touch of a button. (Disks are cheap these days.)

I have both stationary and portable Macs. I find myself almost exclusively using my 17" PowerBook. And if I went back to school, I would definitely want a portable! In fact I’m considering buying an iBook for my daughter, who just started high school. :) You may see her grinning from ear to ear come Christmas.

Come to think of it, with $2000 you’re probably going have enough money left over for a small iPod, some good Mac reference books – and a party.

Good luck!
ArcticStones


PS And DO get the cable and follow the security advise given. Believe me, there are legions of frustrated Windows users that are looking for a five-finger-discount switch to a better platform. ;)

Well I must say that one thing I have noticed people saying is buy a seperate external hard drive. I do agree that it's a great idea and I definately should do it but the problem is price.

As my iBook stands right now, I have the top-of-the-line with 768MB, 80GB, carrying case, MS Office, AppleCare Protection, Kensington lock, printer and cable and I'm already $100 over budget ($2100).

Now I realize that some of this may be excessive; for example, I don't think I'll ever be burning DVDs so the SuperDrive may not be necessary, I could probably find a better deal on a carrying case, and I most likely can find a USB 2.0 cable for less than $15.

But that still leaves little more money for an external firewire or usb hard drive. One other option I was thinking about was the .Mac bundle and using the 250MB that comes with that as backup, using it to store/back up important papers, research, etc. And at $100 a year, it doesn't seem outrageously expensive.

If there is an external hard drive for $150 or less, I'd take it in a second but so far, all the hard drives I've seen cost upwards of $200-$300.

Any more thoughts? Thanks!

--Alan

I still say look for a nice used computer and get an external drive to make a complete bootable backup. if you need more than a file from the backup, it will save time because the system and software will all be there the way you are used to it. not that any of us have our own way of doing things.

But if you don't want to do that, why not look for a GMail invitation and get 1Gb of online storage free, keep the $100 and save for an external drive.

Pricing: DON'T BUY RETAIL. My PowerBook retails for $2800, I paid $2345 through an internet vendor and had it the next day. Look at the price comparison sites like pricewatch.com and the others, and just buy with a credit card from a vendor with a decent rating.

Backups: The .Mac idea is great for someone who would have trouble finding spares or a quick replacement. You'd have access to your data at any computer around campus. Sounds perfect. If you need more than 250MB, a full GB is just $50 more. On the SuperDrive; this makes a great backup medium also. In fact, for most people I think it's better than an external HD. You can put your documents on there and have access to them at any computer with DVD drive. Also you can keep multiple generations in case you damage something yourself. The only thing you won't have is a backup of the full system state, but I don't think that's a big deal.

Well, here is my calculation. All prices are from Apple’s own Web store:

iBook, 768 Mb RAM, 60 Gb disk, BlueTooth $ 1324
MS Office Student Edition $ 149
Epson Stylus C86 (price $100, rebated) $ -
iPod 20 Gb $ 299
Kensington Notebook lock $ 30

Sum $ 1802

That leaves $ 198 for reference guides, a harddisk – AND a party!
You can use a couple of Gb on your iPod for back-up.

In fact, your final package is likely to be cheaper, since you qualify for a student discount. And from the Internet vendors mentioned by Carlos Alvarez, you may be in for even greater savings. In addition, there are often great deals on MS Office bundled with a Mac... And do wait for Tiger.

Best wishes!
ArcticStones


PS Carlos, what Internet vendors do you recommend? I’m considering buying an iBook myself if I fly to the States in the next month or two.

Great advice! But here's my question about the SuperDrive: Is there a DVD equivalent of CD-RW (as opposed to CD-R)? I can't imagine that any research paper would require the full capacity of a DVD so if I could use a DVD as more of a floppy disk, that'd be great. I'd hate to waste a DVD on maybe 5MB worth of work.

Thanks,
Alan

As hayne points above, Macs are being used more and more at University level.

During the last two years, Mac Users have contacted me from the following places:


Boston University School of Medicine
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/

California Institute of Technology
http://www.caltech.edu/

School of Music - University of Illinois
http://www.music.uiuc.edu/home.php

Saratoga Springs Institute for Mathematical Research
http://www.ssimr.com/

California Institute of Technology
http://www.caltech.edu/

Scripps Institution of Oceanography
9500 Gilman Drive 0224
La Jolla, CA 92093
http://sio.ucsd.edu/

Information Technology
Rochester Institute of Technology
http://www.rit.edu/

National Institute of Standards and Technology
http://www.nist.gov/

University of California Santa Cruz
http://www.ucsc.edu/public/

Vanderbilt University - Nashville - Tennessee
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/

Brown University - Providence -RI
http://www.brown.edu/

Occidental College - Los Angeles
http://www.oxy.edu/

Department of Information Science and Telecommunications
School of Information Sciences
University of Pittsburgh
http://www.sis.pitt.edu/

OCF - Open Computing Facility - Berkeley
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/

Department of Physics & Astronomy - University of Manitoba - Canada
http://www.physics.umanitoba.ca/

Department of Computing Science University of Alberta - Canada
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/

Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Pasadena, Ca. 91109
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/


-------


Paul Scherrer Institut (Villigen-Switzerland)
http://www.psi.ch/

City University - London
http://www.city.ac.uk/

The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC)
http://www.bbsrc.ac.uk/

Department of Computer Science
UCL - University College London
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/

CEPBA-IBM Research Institute (CIRI) - España
http://www.cepba.upc.es/ciri

Institute of Biochemical Engeneering - Stuttgart
http://www.ibvt.uni-stuttgart.de/

School of Biological and Environmental Science
University of Stirling, Stirling, FK9 4LA, Scotland, UK
http://www.sbes.stir.ac.uk/

Department of Mathematics at Utrecht University, The Netherlands
http://www.math.uu.nl/

Laboratoire Kastler Brossel, UMR 8552 of the CNRS
Université Pierre & Marie Curie et Ecole Normale Supérieure
http://www.spectro.jussieu.fr/

ESRF*-*The European Synchrotron Radiation*Facility - France
http://www.esrf.fr/


------

The SuperDrive can burn CDs as well as DVDs. So you can use a CD-RW in a SuperDrive just fine. I have a SuperDrive in my iMac, and I've burned only one DVD (and many CDs, including CD-RWs).

One caveat, though. I don't think it works the same as a floppy drive. At least, I haven't figured out how to do so (and I must admit that I haven't looked too closely for a solution). From my experience, I have to erase the CD-RW then burn again. This may be a software issue (as in, resolved by using something other than Disk Utility) so perhaps someone can give you a better solution. But it's something to look into.

For ease of file transfers, I would suggest a USB flash drive. Even the smallest, at 16MB, should be enough to transfer most files.

You can use CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, and DVD-RW in a SuperDrive. I use a DVD-R for backups, since my documents folder is a bit over 1GB. I just picked up a 50-pack of DVD-R media for $19, so at worst I'm throwing away about 40 cents per backup. I've used DVD-RW also, but sometimes have issues with them being locked against re-writing (haven't done any troubleshooting, might be something I'm doing).

Flash drive is a great idea for anyone needing to move a few documents around.

There is a way to keep even a CD-R open so you can keep adding to it (multi-session CD), but it's been awhile since I've done it. I know you can using Toast and this Apple document explains how to do it on Jaguar using Disk Copy; I've never tried it on Panther. It doesn't over-write documents--just adds new ones until the unburned space is filled.

Excellent. Disk Utility does have the option, I just never noticed it before. It looks like it's called "Leave disc appendable" as opposed to the "Allow additional burns" from the linked instructions.

A screenshot (but note that I didn't actually test this, just brought up the window). I should also mention that the options are disabled in the screenshot because I hadn't inserted a blank disc yet.

Thanks to everyone who has replied; I have read and considered everything and think I have reached a conclusion.

If I buy the iBook with the Combo Drive, I can configure it as I like (with the faster processor and 768MB of RAM) plus printer and other extras for about $1800, leaving $200 for one of those Maxtor One-Touch backup external hard drives. The 120GB model was going for $130 the last time I checked and so hopefully, the 80GB will be cheaper, perhaps leaving some extra money for an iPod mini ;) Furthermore, I think that Kensington makes a lock with two adapters on it so securing it shouldn't be a problem.

Any final thoughts? Thanks for everything.

Also, I'm not planning on buying until April-May of '05 so the new OS (and possibly new iBook!) should be out by then.

Thanks again,
Alan

Sounds like a good plan, Alan. Glad you found processing it here helpful.

A word of warning about the Maxtor One-Touch drives, I have one and it is causing a kernel panic when I try to hot switch it via firewire into my iMac and 12 in Powerbook. Maxtor has updated drivers on its website, but they don't fix the problem for me.


v-tach

Merry OS Xmas
 

Alan,

Sounds like your Christmas list is a great setup. I use the LaCie firewire drive and it has been great. The iPod would be a good way to move files around and not just for listening to music. Speaking of Christmas, can your parents help you out with some of the extra items you need? You can drop a hint by sending them a page from a MacZone catalog with the LaCie or an iPod MINI circled.

Really, I'd just buy a drive enclosure from eBay or newegg.com and a drive to put in it. That always costs less, and surprisingly I've had fewer issues than with pre-assembled external drives. I've got a half-dozen FW/USB kits like that around here, and they all work perfectly every time with my PowerBook, old iMac, new G5, and various Windows machines.

lol well hopefully, the parents will be helping out... thats why my budget is as "high" as it is.

As far as buying an internal hard drive kit, this is something I have seriously considered. I guess that it would be the cheapest and most likely easiest for me. (I built my own PC and would have no problem handling an internal hard drive.)

As far as the kits to make them external, how much do they run for a firewire adapter? And how exactly does it work in terms of special/extra mounting equipment and/or cables that would be required?

Thanks,
Alan

Building one is a good idea, but one question. Will it sleep when your Mac sleeps and will it wake when your Mac wakes? Perhaps the Firewires will do this, I do not know. What I like about the LaCie is the heavy aluminum case absorbs alot of heat. Another good choice is from http://www.wiebetech.com with many of their drives having no fan noise. With an iBook, this might be a consideration.

I paid $35 for the last one I bought, with FW400 and USB 2. You open it (no tools required), put the drive in, close it, and plug it in. Just as a test I had my 4 month old monkey do it for me, and other than the banana slime on the case, he did a great job...

They are plug and play on the Mac with both USB and FW.

This is all for a 3.5" drive, BTW. A 2.5" notebook drive would cost quite a bit more.

It will stop spinning about five minutes after the Mac stops accessing it. I assume it would do the same when the Mac goes to sleep, but I haven't tested this. Of course, normally your sleep timer is more than 5 minutes anyway... It also stops spinning when you turn unplug the Mac.

The fan continues to run in both cases. It's fairly quiet, but I put it behind other stuff on my desk to further muffle it. I've had the fanless cases kill drives prematurely, and temp tests always show them hotter than I'd like. I got a case with a front-mounted power switch so I can just reach over and turn it on/off as needed.

And where did you purchase it? And possibly a link? The cases that I saw were around the same price but the only reason why I was concerned about cables and what not was because I was looking at newegg which I'm assuming sells OEM parts. I'm also looking to buy the 80GB hard drive from there as well so I'm assuming I won't get any extra cables from them.

I've bought some at the local Fry's Electronics, some from Newegg, and some from eBay. Sorry, didn't keep any details, and the three I have at home just say "Mobile Disk" on them. It has a model number HD-338-COM on the bottom. I have different ones around the office, but I like these much better. I think these came from Fry's, or maybe CompUSA.

They come with all the cables you need, including the FW and USB cables. The drive cable is a custom one that's very short. Any OEM bare drive in 3.5 form factor will be ready to go in this.

Sorry I don't have better details on the source. I can post a pic if it will help.

I just happened to see that enclosure while looking for something else on Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...type=Refurbish

That price is more than I paid, but still reasonable. It's a very nice case.