Is this a help request, or a philosophy seminar? If the latter, it's moving to the Coat Room.

Thank you.

all the souls were standing in line at the holy gate waiting
 

for St Peter's word whether they would go to heaven or hell. Time stood still as the judgements were passed.

Then, all of a sudden, here comes this guy wearing a white robe and a stethoscope around his neck ..just walks right past all these souls waiting for the final word ... and to the incredulous looks on thier faces ...just strolls right in the Holy Gate like he owns the place.

They all turn to one another ... then St Peter .. who in Gods name is this guy just walks in past everyone waiting?

St Peter say .. oh ..Him? Thats God .. he thinks he's a Doctor.

Don't know if this is a philosopy discussion or not. All I know is that I am waiting to find out whether A) Norton cooks my drive as many have suggested B) Defragging it slows it down as Apple among others have suggested C) Does nothing and was waste of 50 bucks, or D) Makes the kind of speed improvements I have come to expect from it in the past.

I did note that in the initial readout from Speed Disk, after a clean install the outter 25% portion of the disk which is the fast portion has virtually nothing on it.

And like anything else I have ever done with a Mac, if I have to erase and reload the thing 15 times to get it to the lean mean state that I expect from it ... then I will. And I have never once called Apple.

Looks around ... seems we've moved to the philosophy corner
 

For anyone interested:

Norton didn't cook the drive. Boot time dropped by 70% to 60 seconds, same as Barefeats tested a G5 with this raptor setup. Not too shabby for an out of date 7410 clunker.

And good old FruitMenu takes an overall 2% performance hit penalty .. all in the Graphics, with Quartz taking the most: 8% .. UI taking a 6% hit.

Is it worth it for the functionality and is it reliable? I guess I'll find out.

Cheers all .. back to work

Gary

I find it very ironic that a site dedicated to exploring and modifying the inner workings of OSX (the daily tips generally involve Terminal changes to the the OS) turns such a cold shoulder to commercial versions of the same.

Haxies are always a derisive term when discussed here. One prominent moderator makes it very clear he has no use for them and takes every opportunity to state exceptionally strongly that opinion (as if fact) every single time the subject is approached, typically by an impressionable new user. The thread then simple dies on the spot.

I have been faithfully visiting (and contributing to I hope) this site every single day since spring 2002 and at the least browse each and every new forum post. When a haxie or system instability is the subject head, I'm all over the entire thread until it ends. I have no recall of a haxie causing the problem in a "remove it and report back," "Thanks! that cured it!" resolution sequence. Ever. Could someone reference me to where all that discussion got past me?

I think it would be a real shame to shuffle off such an important question, its discussion and possible important insights to a dead-end repository. Just my opinion.

Thank you Bruce
 

Very poignant .. what exactly is the difference between a commercial modification to the system function and all these thousands of terminal typed mods (or fixes) to do just exactly that .. customize the tool to do what the user needs or wants?

Regards, Gary

Well, I tried it for a while, and wasn't impressed...

My fondness for FruitMenu is in part a byproduct of my hatred for the Dock, which I disable. A person who likes the Dock would probably be using it to launch the things they use the most often (although I don't know if you can put individual PrefsPanes in the Dock -- ??), and if you already have a means of launching your apps and favorite documents that suits you, the feature-set of FruitMenu is naturally going to be a bit less appealing.

Me, I've never understood how anyone could prefer some floating icon or toolbar type of launcher, whether it be the Dock or the MacOS 9 Launcher. I guess if you only use 7 or 8 applications and maybe 3-4 favorite documents or folders you want direct access to they are tolerable, although they still commit the heinous sin of robbing you of screen real estate. And in all fairness, the Dock does let you toss in folders and access their contents as a hierarchical menu.

The joy of Macintosh is that we don't all have to live with a "one size fits all" world but can instead configure and tweak our Macs if we so choose and set them up just as we want them. If I came across as hostile to folks who prefer to keep their machines pristine & stock, I didn't mean to. The folks I get annoyed at are those who rain contempt down on people who do modify how their system looks and behaves.

Over the years there have been good (stable, unproblematic) modifications and others that had nasty side effects. (I loved SFVol, had problems with SoundMaster, loved PopupFolder, found SpeedDoubler to generate some instabilities, etc.) That this continues to be so under MacOS X doesn't greatly surprise me. It's still in the nature of the thing: try it, see for yourself, keep the ones you really like, and be aware that troubleshooting gets hard if you pile too many layers of 3rd-party mods on.

But yeah. What Bruce Miller said. Unsanity's haxies are not likely to mess up your system. You may or may not like them. There should not be a blanket condemnation of them or of 3rd-party interface modifier sw in general.

Well, as I said, my fondness for being able to customize the Apple Menu comes from years of using Mac OS/Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server and Mac OS X feels odd without having the Apple Menu set up.

I could write a long post about how I feel about this... but I've already written a page on my site that covers all that stuff. You can read more about the Apple Menu (and my feelings and suggestions for it) here. The page is mainly to help Rhapsody users, but it covers some Mac OS 8/9 and Mac OS X stuff too.

Any good suggestions for
 

disabling the squirming little sucker and getting the trash can back to the desktop?

Thanks, Gary

*mourns the loss of pop up folders*

Only 7 or 8 applications on a pristine & stock system. :)

I've also seen people claim Panther won't run on a Blue & White G3.


Guys, do whatever you want to your systems, but keep the editorial threads in the Discussion areas and the help request threads in the Help Request areas. The folks I get annoyed at seem to have tremendous and repeated difficulty with that distinction.

evolution
 

amazing what it does at times. Starts as one thing and ends up as another.

rotflmao ... *goes crossed eyed at that list* How in the hell do you find anything in there? *says someone who ruthlessly deletes anything that isn't used*

Use a 'link and peg' mnemonic system, that associates each program with a phrase, perhaps from a poem.

Then go memorize The Iliad, and there's your phrases. Nothing to it. :D

omg ...
 

talk about evolution ... now its sunk to rotfpimplmao

Good thread! :) We haven't had a "lively" discussion for awhile.

I guess when it comes to haxies, it's something of a gamble, but, like others have shared, Unsanity's products have a relatively good record. I used a few for awhile, but as OS X grew on me and I came to appreciate the many advantages of the new workflow schema, I left all that old Classic wannabe stuff behind. In doing so, like Craig, I now have a more "vanilla" system that has been virtually problem-free for many months, and that's with all kinds of peripherals plugged in.

I did upgrade my son's computer before removing APE and a couple of other haxies some time back and interminable wierdness ensued. After removing/uninstalling APE and a few haxies, we were able to do the upgrade.

So a word to the wise, here, would be to wait for the APE and other haxie upgrades before updating to Tiger, or else delete all those 3rd party System enhancements/pref panels, etc. before installing.

Almost none of the "hints" published on the main macosxhints site have been about making system-wide mods to the OS. Instead they typically show you how to work within the system to accomplish some task or how to do something in a different way than usual.

The essential difference is to do with the idea of applications being separate from the operating system and separate from each other. Finder is an application. If you want Finder to work differently or look differently, you can modify a copy of Finder (keeping the original safely tucked away) and run that instead of the original. Your mods to Finder don't affect (cannot affect) any other application because they are confined to one application.

But if you install software like Unsanity's APE, which has system-wide effect, and that affects every application running on the system, then all bets are off. You can't be sure whether it might be possible that some undesired behaviour in an application is due to APE or not. Note that I am not saying that I have evidence that APE causes instability - merely that there is a logical possibility.

And in a troubleshooting situation (which is the case more often than not in these forums), the easiest course is to reduce the number of variables. It's difficult enough to debug someone else's system remotely. Anything that can be done to make the task easier (e.g. reverting to a vanilla system) is likely to be suggested as a way of increasing the chances of success.

Actually, only Unsanity's applications, including APE itself, actively disengage themselves when an OS update has been detected upon restart and offer to auto-search and install updates before proceeding. No other application or haxie does that. Additionally, all their applications offer a very comprehensive uninstaller in the .dmg that is explicit about what gets installed and uninstalled, as chosen. Their whole interface with the system is completely removed if desired at any time, so there's no risk other than maybe finding things work and play nice as many of us long-time users have found.

I do not agree that
 

"all bets are off" Having spent a few years in tech support doing trouble shooting over the phone or by the net on a number of operating systems, I can certainly relate to the difficulties posed by long distance troubleshooting, given the difficulties many times of trouble shooting a comp sitting right in front of you.

Untangling what a clueless hysterical housewife is trying to tell you after she has installed every spam and gimmick in the book on her winblows 98 clunker is a nightmare.

But system wide utilities and mods have been around for as long as computers for a good reason. Functionality. While they may or may not be asthetic, computers aren't plants or ornaments, computers do something, and individuals with unique problems to solve use them for that. Part of the job of a tech is to sort through those to disclose problems, and eliminating variables is an essential part of that or any other troubleshooting. Thats hold true for anything. Whether it be computers or plumbing.

There is one absolutely sure fire 100% way I can assure the stability of this or any other computer. No matter what is put on it or not. Never turn it on. But that wouldn't produce much would it?

The original question was to the stability/functionality of a particular mod. In this particular case, I have determined that the authors provide an uninstall package, provide options for exclusions for interacting with specified applications which I have used freely, provide options for installation for user level or system level, and has few files involved that can be manually deleted if necessary.

I am giving it a try, and its functionality and the increase in utility of this machine to my work is undeniable. I have tested it, and the impact on performance is minimal in my view and my standards are pretty severe in that regard. If it gives me any trouble, I will have zero qualms about tossing it into the trash. So far it has not.

Touching on a point raised earlier, manufacturers many times have a vested interest in mediocrity in pursuit of the protection what they are supporting. Having been a crafts person all my life who in my own way is also a manufacturer, I know what that vested interest is about. But I sure am not going to let someone else determine what my own standards are by virtue of their own, their own fears, or the pursuit of security that doesn't exist. The world is full of "dont touch it because of what "might" happen. I dont believe that nor have ever done things that way.

I also have one thing to say about this notion of purity and not touching anything, not needed, when it comes to defragging or optimizing X. "Bunk" ..to say it politely. That is so far from the reality that I cannot even begin to describe it. And that too relates to the vested interest in the security of some producer who is protecting only their own backside.

While it may be true that a large portion of the terminal type mods that get passed on this or other message boards are application specific, simply from unquantified subjective observation, I don't think that its limited to that is an accurate statement.

smiles ... getting to be more like it ..
 

a bit at a time ... http://www.glsdesigns.com/(censored)picture_1.pdf

I think I begin to understand why my systems run without trouble for years, and why you long for the goode olde days of OS 9. :p

There's a reason why I haven't defragged a Mac volume in 10 years (other than one time, testing Plus Optimizer for HFS+). The backside I have a vested interest in making life easier for is my own. ;)

By the way, you've posted some pictures in a couple of threads on this site that are not especially appropriate to it. Please stop.

art .... pure art
 

mm hmm ... and a stock out of the box Dewalt mitre saw that the manufacturer doesn't want you touching has on average a .09 mm runout at the rim, producing trim cuts that are more akin to what a chain saw does than a trim tool and is at minimum .5 degree off in presets. .5 degree angle error x 8 cuts end result produces a gap that carpenters have a term for (censored). Thats not a fast evolving, ever changing and uncertain manufacturing process like the computer industry. Its old, and how to make things well are known.

I've used dozens of other guys saws, and they all wanted to use mine. Cuts like glass, and pieces fall together they belong together. Only takes a day and a half lapping collars, filing and trimming and fine tuning all the parts to get one there. Saving time and aggravation every day. And the confidence the saw would do its part, so all you had to do was let yourself go and focus on severing that that tiny mark with 4 lb chunk of steel with 100 razor sharp teeth spinning at 2 miles a second a fraction of an inch away from your thumb every single time you stepped up to it. Safety? Security? Its a Zen thing ... something like what makes (made?) a Mac a Mac.

http://www.glsdesigns.com/5_perfection.html

mm hmm .. there are some things I miss ... but I'll get this thing in shape one way or another.

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=30433