In fact, mT is already a legend which surpasses explanation. :D

Which sort of misinformation do you prefer? :)


Most of my Mac customer requests: How do I get (some application) to do this thing I want?

Most of my PC customer requests: My computer's not working. Fix it.

From both: I'm on a trip. Why can't I send email? Fix it.


Editor's note: some literary license employed...

heh heh. You gotta hand it to CAlvarez, he sure starts some lively threads around here.

The information about the price vs. hardware and what the limitations of the PC hardware are is wildly inaccurate. I wouldn't know where to start making points, since I didn't find anything I'd call completely true.

The eMac makes a fantastic attempt at matching Wintel pricing. I've recommended it to quite a number of people. However, most Wintel machines in that price range are better-featured than the eMac. But on the other hand, most people don't need those features. What they do need is a machine that does everything they want right out of the box, and that's what I try to stress to people. The hardware argument is invalid; you can buy more hardware for less money on Intel/AMD platforms any day.

The challenge for those of us trying to advise users on the best solution rather than the one *we* like is to learn which things will be of value to an individual, including things that the person doesn't know exist or that he will need in the future. What a lot of people end up doing is pushing glitzy features that the user doesn't need and/or doesn't understand. "The Mac has Firewire 800 and the PC has no Firewire at all" is completely irrelevant to the person who wants to write documents all day and nothing more.

I guess that's why combining a consultancy with a hardware (or software) sales business can create a conflict of interest. ;)


By the way, does 'more hardware' or 'cheaper hardware' equate to 'better hardware' in your experience?

I agree on the conflict, which is why I don't "sell" hardware. I may do the purchasing on behalf of others, but I get paid by the hour to do the shopping, with no profit on the hardware. They either pay direct or pre-pay the actual costs. It troubles me greatly to see people getting sold on things primarily based on what a vendor sells or makes profit from. I deal via Insight and Newegg, which means I can get absolutely anything, and with no profit built in the customer knows I have no hidden motives.

I've found only a marginal corelation between price/quantity/quality really. These days any of the mainline PC components are very good, unless you get into the truly cheap stuff. Apple of course always has solid quality. One of the things I tell people often is that you KNOW what you are getting if you buy Apple, Sun, HP, IBM (not recommended, but you do get consistency), and a few others. With off-the-shelf hardware you either buy exactly what I tell you, or pay by the hour when the excrement hits the air oscillation device...

Buying HP is the closest comparison I know of to buying Apple. They are consistent in hardware, and offer equally-good support. I would never recommend Dell, Gateway, or the other off-brand machines in comparison with Apple and the other main brands. You can save about $200 if you buy a low-end HP as compared to an eMac, but you'll pay more once you add the software that Apple includes, not to mention the time to get it installed. And especially not to mention the time spent if it doesn't work, and while most of the time it does work fine, I have to nod toward Apple for having a near-perfect bundle.

Want to make your IT guy insane? Buy 25 machines that are specified "the same" but end up having little differences in hardware and driver sets. That's what I see from Dell, Gateway, and many others. Apple, HP, IBM, Compaq, etc stay the same within any given model line.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought you did. Your approach is very similar to most of the other independent consultants I know.

The "more/cheaper" vs. "better" thing was a bit of a trick question, of course. "More" and "cheaper" are things which are, at least in part, quantifiable. "Better" is a qualitative judgment which is really only meaningful after having some real experience with the various items being weighed.

It seems to me that people like the one described way back at the start of this thread really only have experience with Apple products of the past, which compared to PCs of the present, sure aren't 'better.' And I was a contented user of System 7 for many years.

So how does a company like Apple give people a chance to get some experience with the current product family? You got it - brick and mortar Apple Stores, in all sizes, shapes, and eventually, locations. That's the one strategy which may actually work to overcome the years of Apple's marketing neglect. And, unlike, say, Gateway for example, people may discover a product which is 'better' and not merely which commodity item is 'more' or 'cheaper,' as the mainstream PC market has pretty much sunk to these days, Alienware notwithstanding. Or, they may not.

OK, enough philosophizing for now. ;)

No implication taken, just figured you were opening it for discussion. I used to sell and consult, and while I tried hard to stay objective, I found that customers didn't feel completely comfortable. Since I stopped, I find that I get nearly zero objection to my recommendations.

You're right on the Apple stores, and they sure made them pretty. I may not have made the full switch without one where I could feel, touch, and ask. I may still just be using the iMac to play around on, though honestly, I was doing more and more "real work" on it just because I liked the interface. I send a lot of people to the stores to look.

Another fantastic move is having a low-cost machine. I think they can push it further into low cost to get newbies interested. Right now when I tell people to consider a Mac I have to try to justify the price difference. If it was less, it would be easier.

What do they need to do next? Stop price-fixing. It nearly kept me from buying the PowerBook. You have to go to gray sources to get better than retail pricing. I try to buy local, but not when the out-the-door price is $2900 vs. $2445. I felt insulted that retailers had that much extra margin. The internet sources are only "gray" because of Apple's price-fixing contract, not because they are shady or unreliable, so I continue to refer people there to buy the product.

You'd think after so many years of failing to sell an arguably superior product they'd learn something about trying to keep too much control on the market.

Here's something interesting... I'm finding that people in the tech field are moving towards Apple products too, albeit slowly and with some fear. Even people like me who support and work in a Windows world. At a trade show last week I had three people who develop/support Windows products ask me about the PowerBook, and said they planned to follow up with a visit to an Apple store.

I don't think there is as much of a margin as you think there is for the official Apple retailers. Here's an excerpt from a SiliconValley.com story (April 2004) relating to complaints from authorized Apple retailers:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/sil...ey/8500793.htm

So, it seems that at that time, the authorized retailers were making a profit of $330 on that PB. If grey-market dealers sell it for less, there must be a reason - e.g. that it is a refurbished unit, etc.

You are correct that resellers' profit margins are slim to none. How do I know? I worked at one for 2+ years as a salesman and technician. The silicon valley article, at the time, was exactly correct in the pricing for the 17" powerbook and how much official independent resellers paid.

It truly is a sad time for the independent apple reseller business.

It aint necessarily so...
 

Be careful to note that you are perhaps doing all this from an American perspective.

Outside of the States Apple charges a hefty premium on their machines and so restricts the user's options that modifying and adding to them really blows out prices badly.

On top of that if you don't like what Apple is offering you still have to buy it and throw it away. Things like Modem, keyboard and mouse. Cards that actually support mutiple monitors but Apple deliberately cripples to just offer mirroring on low end Macs. Low spec RAM that occupies one of 2 slots and has to be removed to upgrade. All this punishes the Mac customer.

PC users will say, quite rightly, that the great advantage of PCs is that you can get very good machines built to order for less than buying from the big name dealers. That is how I got my excellent PC after finally being totally exasperated at Apple's tardiness with OSX and lack performance.

Also PCs offer great opportunities for bargain hunting for peripherals etc which you hardly ever see for Macs. I've got some great cards, scanners, graphics tablets, keyboards etc for the PC. Since lots of hardware has to have unique drivers for the Mac, or just is physically incompatible, we still get stuck with a fat bill for official Mac upgrades or take the chance that it just doesn't work.

Lets not embarass Apple by asking how the "better built" Mac has such a miserably short warranty (my PC has 3 years) and such expensive AppleCare.

When I mentioned all this to an Apple employee, he justified Apple's pricing with; "Well on BMWs the tyres are extra!" I said he was buying his BMW with my money and if I switched to PCs maybe I could afford a BMW. Didn't like that at all.

I think it's safe to guess that most people post from the perspective they are most familiar with. I don't think it would be practical to qualify it in every post.

My perspective, from the U.S. but also based on a little time spent in and dealing with Europe (both the UK and the continent) while my wife's mother was a pianist there for two decades, is that most things were more expensive there than in the U.S., and generally harder to come by. Which makes sense given the population density and also to some degree the VAT structure.

There are exceptions of course, for example in the area of cameras and personal electronics there was a lot of direct importing from the Asian manufacturing locations, which helped keep the prices manageable. I doubt that Apple will ever be able to compete with that on price.

I certainly have heard horror stories about Apple dealerships in Europe. I wonder if a stronger direct presence via the Apple Stores will do anything to ease that in the future?



edit- by the way, here in Frostbite Falls we find it easier to glean a person's perspective when they actually put useful information in their profiles. :p

Now there is an argument: the comparison between like-price machines rather than comparing the price it takes to improve a cheaper slug up to specs similar to the (e)Mac. The previous fuzzy "That excerpt is nearly 100% inaccurate. This sort of misinformation is what keeps people away from Macs when they realize they've been lied to." just appeared to be hand-waving and so was not of much use. I started a reply to it earlier and by the time I finished, this later response of yours was there and so I deleted my original request for a better argument. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I had heard a little of that before, but I wasn't aware that it was prohibative. I wonder why Apple does that. My post was not intended to be a blanket answer, I am just rankled by hearing old recycled arguments like cost and software availability (how many versions of hangman do you need) and so I wanted to input a bit of re-examining. BTW, I'm not denying the greater actual software availability in some categories, just that it is not a meaningful argument for most people.

I never did like those BMW comparisons that have shown up in the past several years with regard to Apple vs Microsoft. I think these odd comparisons of niche players were spawned in desperation by the continual business media reports of Apple's imminent demise. However, talking about the tires being extra is going too far.

Hmmm. There's certainly a huge buzz here in the UK about the new London Apple Store (and the prospective Birmingham one too). But I can't help wondering about the Authorised Apple Retailers in my region - three of them have gone out of business in the last two years because of increasing overheads & low margins. Let's hope that the Apple Stores don't tread on the toes of the existing AARs.....

CAlvarez: Well, for that matter, "The PC has a 2 GHz processor and a 360 gig hard disk and a gig of RAM, and the used eBay Performa going for $50 only has a 180 MHz CPU and 64 MB of RAM and a 2 gig HD" is pretty close to irrelevant if all you're doing is word processing. Any computer faster than a Quadra is overkill for writing letters and reports. Nevertheless most people buy far more computer than they need.

Meanwhile, all things legitimately considered, FireWire is a good thing for the average consumer to have in their computer because of digital cameras and camcorders and whatnot. The person who doesn't use one today might end up with one within the next couple years.

I agree with that too. If people honestly just need basics, and I know plenty of those, then I recommend not spending money for things they'll never use. Therefore I recommend used PCs, older iMacs, or the Lindows machines from Wal-mart ($200 for a 1GHz Celeron).

Firewire sounds like a great idea, but it's quickly becoming irrelevant with the advent of USB 2. Yes, I know Firewire is still superior to USB 2, but consumers don't, and thus all consumer-grade video camera makers are moving to that since it's cheap and ubiquitous.

The pricing is something I can't figure out. I'm sure there can't be a huge margin, but the fact remains that reliable internet dealers are selling the top of the line PB for many hundreds less than Apple and the local retailers. Like I said, I try to buy local, but...

PowerBook, $2799
Tax, $223.92
Total, $3022.92

Internet price, $2399
Overnight shipping, $46
Total, $2445

Today the price is down to $2335. How can they afford to do it? I don't know, but mine was factory sealed, and when I call Apple they don't have any issues with the serial number. I ordered at 3pm on a Tuesday and had it at 10am on Wednesday. All the clients I've referred to them are happy with their Mac buys.

They do - and they will.

Here's the perspective from Australia.

US Apple Store
G5 Dual 2.5Ghz US$2999 = A$3999
PBook 17" Super US$2799 = A$3732
iPod photo 60Gb US$599 =A$799
(at conservative A$ = US$0.75)

Australian Apple Store
G5 Dual 2.5Ghz A$5299 Difference = A$1300
PBook 17" Super A$4499 Difference = A$767
iPod photo 60Gb US$949 Difference = A$150

If Apple is a truly global player let me buy from the Apple USA website and I'll happily pay for the freight myself.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of the iLife features of Macs are not available to Australians and iTune Store is still over the horizon. Whilst we have no Apple stores here yet, Apple has forbidden its AppleCentre retailers here from even adopting the Apple Store layouts.


NB A$ is currently trading at close to US$0.76.
The Australian price includes a 10% GST refundable if claimed by a business, otherwise not.

Love it.

It's amazing today how people get so hung up on MHz and HD size... it's this need to have bigger, faster, better all the time. I just switched over an entire law office (mind you, law firms live in the PC world) to the Mac platform. They understood that for word processing, email & web, and a few other minor applications, it wasn't necessary to spend thousands of dollars for each machine. They bought entry level iMacs (with a little extra RAM) and were able to afford a new machine for every single employee. Now all the office computers run beautifully, rarely (if ever) crash, and are still WAY more powerful than what anyone needs...

That's a large discrepancy, no doubt about it. I'd take the trip instead too.