video card for quicksilver
 

I've been struggling with trying to run two monitors on a Radeon 7000 for at least a year now and I'm fed up. With Panther 10.3.5 and a 2001 quicksilver 733, 1500 ram, life just ain't sweet. THe monitors both work, but things become so slow even taking a sample with the clone tool in photoshop requires a slight pause. In fact, i thought for a long time i had bad ram (still sometimes think that!). Anyway, my question has perhaps two parts: 1) Which card is going to give me enough ram to power both monitors with quick refresh -i've been looking at Radeon 9000 and 9800 but don't understand the difference besides the 200 dollar difference. Bear in mind that this is not for gaming but my whole computer has been a dog while waiting for screen to redraw).
2) the second part of the question: can i later move this card to a G5 and avoid having to spend another $400 or so bucks to buy a high end card with the G5? I see that the 9800 Pro Special Edition says for G5 only -is that true? I would spend the extra bucks if i knew that in 6 months it didn't all go to waste on buying a G5. Incidentally, my quicksilver has 4 PCI slots AND 1 AGP slot and i have two CRT monitors, one 19 Lacie and an old 13 power computing(?!).
Tanks alought, S

The 9800 is well worth the extra money for you over the 9000. Don't get the 9800 Special Edition--yes that really is only for the G5s, and it will also get confusing attaching all the adapters to get the Special Edition working with your two CRTs.

Also don't get an OEM 9800 Pro on ebay or similar.

You want the 9800 Pro (Retail Box) Mac Edition with 128 MB of memory. This card is compatible with your QS and also with the PowerMac G5. It will work with your two CRTs. It has plenty of memory for your purposes. It is fast.

Trevor

Thanks Trevor for the reply. I figured more money probably meant better performance...unfortunately. Incidentally, if you have time to reply and the inkling, is it possible for a slow video card to seemingly wreak havoc with your system, to the point you want to chuck the whole thing out the window? Can the video card go into overload where it just sort of stops and you have broken squares of images scattered about the desktop? I've had that experience and am hoping it is the card...
thanks, S

That wouldn't be due to a slow video card, although it could be due to a failing video card or a problem with a video card driver. But no matter how slow, a video card that is working properly will not have broken squares of images.

Trevor

thank you
 

thanks Trevor. I'm going to go for it and i'll reply in about 3 weeks to tell you the results (i'm going to be away from the comp for awhile). Your help is greatly appreciated....
S

Also one thing to mention... The Radeon 7000 not only has a smaller amount of memory, but it also does not have the same bandwith as newer cards do. Also, the memory is slower and the gpu much less performant. I've actually had faster results on a G3 with a Radeon PCI card, with one screen in the card and one in the original monitor connect than with a G4 with one Radeon card with both monitors plugged in. The simple reason for this is that I was using two separate GPUs, one for each monitor... They did not need to be very powerfull, just to have one monitor for one gpu... But new cards such as the Radeon 9800 have sufficient power to run both those monitors a the same time since it was actually meant to run this way.

good to know!
 

Actually, i just downloaded the new drivers for Radeon (just to be sure I had the right one) and hooked up again the second monitor (and reinstalled the Radeon 7000 which i had taken out. In doing so, it suddenly occured to me that i always had my main monitor hooked up to the original card that came with the computer and the smaller one that i use for palettes hooked up to the Radeon 7000. THat doesn't seem right.... So I now hooked up the 19" to the Radeon and the 13" to the original card. Things seem snappier although i just did this 5 minutes ago -could be an illusion. But in so thinking, what happens with a 9800? Do i hook up both monitors to the 9800 or the big monitor to the 9800 and the little one to the original card? Or do i not even use the original card and leave the 7000 in and use that for the little monitor? Geeeez so many questions. Can you take out the original card? Should you? Remember my main point is to have two monitors for work flow, one for palettes and one for the image.

AS i type right now, it sure seems a lot snapper..... As far as the broken up images I talked about before, as the screen redraws, it redraws in square section, somtimes freezing with only half the new screen withdrawn and all the squares overlapping, or it appears without the text.... Maybe it won't do that anymore....

My advice wqould be to try out the different ways of connecting both monitors as I have no G4 or Radeon 9800 to test this on :D

Remove the original card (you'll have to to plug in the 9800, it's in the only AGP slot) and hook both monitors up to the 9800. Unplug the 7000 as well, unless you want four monitors. And if you do want 4 monitors, you'd be better off replacing the 7000 with a Radeon 9200 PCI. The 7000 is just not a very fast card. As Raven says, the original Radeon PCI card is a better card, it just doesn't support two monitors from one card like the 7000 does.

Yes, you should remove the original card. Sell it on ebay or something. Also sell your 7000. Between the two cards, your 9800 just got a bunch cheaper. :) Of course, if one of your cards is having issues, you should mention that when you sell it.

Trevor

interesting news
 

Hooking up both cards to the 7000? I never did that and don't see how... I left the original card where it was and added the 7000. I have one monitor on the original and the other on the 7000. Unless there is an adaptor, there doesn't seem to be a way to hook up the two monitors on the 7000. There is another port, but i don't recognize the plug, it does not fit the monitor. You say the original card is better than the 7000, however, as I said above, I've switched the way I had the monitors hooked up, putting the main on the 7000 and the palette monitor on the original and things seem a lot snapper.
So I can sell these things on ebay, eh? I never would have thought, since technology goes out of date so quick. I'm not really sure if it's having issues. Can't imagine how much I'd take in with this ad: "old, crappy, video card for mac, probably busted, best offer."

one last question before i buy
 

Just to make sure before I plop down my hard-earned pay: will I notice a difference between the 9000 and the 9800 in my dual monitor set-up in graphic design work? I'd like the best i can get but not if that best is something that i will never use. I don't really have any experience with various video cards therefore am not sure how the improvement will manifest itself other than the idea that it is "faster."

No, you can hook up both monitors to the 7000. The 7000 IS a card, it doesn't make sense to hook cards to it.

The Radeon 7000 should have one VGA output, one DVI output, and one TV output (S-video and composite). You can hook up two displays to those three outputs. If you have two VGA monitors, for example, a DVI to VGA adapter is inexpensive and will allow you to hook up both monitors.

However, I'm not advising that. The 7000 is a slow card.

Oh, most definitely.

Well, if you want to sell it you'll have to come up with some better ad copy than THAT. :)

Read the following articles:
1. (probably most relevant to your question): ATI Radeon 9800 Pro: killer graphics for the rest of us?
http://www.barefeats.com/image04/r98-cin.gif

2. The ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Special 256MB Mac Edition versus Other Radeon Graphics Cards

3. ATI Radeon 9800 Pro

4. Dual G5 2GHz with Radeon 9600 vs 9800 compared to MDD G4 Dual 1.25GHz w/9800

5. ATI Radeon 9800 Pro: Quake3 and UT2003 at 1600x1200

Trevor

you're right, I meant "monitor" not "card"
 

...please excuse my mistake. Indeed, it was the monitors I was talking about hooking up, not the cards. As they say, I may be dumb but I'm not stupid. REally appreciate your time, Trevor, thanks. This was a rocking reply and I am definitely convinced after reading that article about the 9800 Pro: I'm running right out and buying a Pentium 4.

It's very difficult to read emotions from a posting, without benefit of things like vocal tone and body language, so I'm not sure if I offended you, or if you are joking, or what, but...

1. Your mistake was understandable. The only reason I corrected it was because it was possible you really thought that you had to hook cards up to the Radeon 7000, and I wanted to make it clear that you didn't. But don't sweat it--no criticism was intended. In fact, in the early days of 3D video cards, you DID have to hook cards up to other cards. It was rather weird.

2. In my opinion it would be unfortunate for you if you bought a Pentium 4, especially if you did it based on the articles I linked above. There's a lot more in the equation than just raw speed, and I maintain that you will get far less done using Windows than you will using Mac OS X.

Trevor

shoot I was kidding!
 

Sorry man, I was completely kidding. I reread my post and you're right, it easily could be thought that I was offended and the post was sarcastic. It wasn't. Except for the part about buying a Pentium, that was indeed a joke. I wasn't offended at all and I really do appreciate your help. It is easy to do stupid things with the computer and I have done them so it is always best to be overly exact with the posts if possible, as you were.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
THe only thing that I'm now thinking about, or that I have been thinking about but keep going back and forth, is buying a new G5. With the things I want to add to my Quicksilver to bring it up to speed (Mercury processor upgrade 1.4 MHz-$479, Radeon 9800 -$350, DVD superdrive $100, digital audio card $100, additional internal hard drive 250gig -$250) I'm looking at spending a good chunk of money, over a grand. The price of the lowest G5 is $1500. Of course, I think it would be imperative to have at least 2 gigs of ram so that would up the price. And then the hard drive is only 80gigs and the video card is not the Radeon 9800 (unless you pay $350 extra) so I will still be short on memory and possibly a slow video and I will still spend at least 2 grand. Of course, the comp in general will be (I assume) a lot stronger and faster so maybe worth it. I was thinking of opting initially for the high-end G5 but then balked at the $4000 price tag (with memory additions etc...). But then I realized that my upgrades would cost nearly the price of the low-end G5.... You get the idea. What do you think?

Hmmm. There's too many variables there for me to give very good advice, but here's a few things to keep in mind when you make the decision:

* You can sell your Quicksilver to offset some of the cost of the G5

* There are a bunch of differences between the OEM (i.e. Apple-supplied) Radeon 9800 and the Retail Radeon 9800. Since you are connecting your computer to CRTs, which presumably use the VGA interface, the Retail Radeon 9800 Pro is the one you want (not a Special Edition, nor an OEM 9800). The Retail Radeon 9800 Pro supports hookup to two CRTs right out of the box--it has one VGA output, and an adapter to go from it's DVI output to another CRT. If you get another version of the 9800, you are going to have to buy adapters (I think two adapters, although maybe only one? depending on what adapters are bundled).

* BTW, I paid only $289 for a retail Radeon 9800 Pro--check out http://dealmac.com and http://dealsontheweb.com for good prices on various Mac items

* If you are making money from your graphic design, you may be best served by buying the high-end G5 instead of the single 1.8. Time saved should directly translate to money in pocket, I would think.

* If you do get a G5 and are not sure how soon you will be able to buy another video card, the Radeon 9600 (for only $50 additional) is far better than the nVidia Geforce FX 5200. I would avoid the FX 5200 at all costs unless you're just buying it to instantly replace it, say with a 9800.

Well, that's a few items to think about. Good luck with your decision!

Trevor

Oh, one other random thought...

If you upgrade your G4 now rather than jumping to a G5, you can upgrade things one at a time, instead of all at once. In other words, improve your video card, then after a big job, improve your processor, then after another job, upgrade your optical drive, etc....

Oh, and one more... the 2001 Quicksilver doesn't support a 250 GB drive on it's internal ATA bus--you are limited to 137 GB/ 128 GB (depending on whether you count GB in binary or decimal--in practical terms the biggest drive you can use on that bus is 120 GB), so upgrading the QS would require you either to only get 120 GB drive, or else buy an ATA card and hook the drive(s) to that.

Trevor

good points
 

I did read that i can use a drive bigger than 120 by using a patch by Intech if I remember the name correctly. It was something i read about on the OWC site. I still have not decided what to do. I'm going to visit the apple store in the next few days and try to run the machines through their paces. If they blow me out of the water that might sway me. what machine do you work on incidentally?

The Intech driver has some limitations you should keep in mind.

At home, I use a PowerMac G4 (originally a Sawtooth G4/400, upgraded to a G4/1.4 GHz single). My work computer is a PowerBook G4 15" 1 GHz.

Trevor

Chiming in late here, but I managed to pick up a Geforce 4 Ti 4600 for my Quicksilver a little over a year ago. I'm using dual displays (17" Studio Display, and 17" CRT) comfortably. You might be able to find one on eBay cheaply, but you'll need two adapters (DVI > VGA, ADC > VGA).

some layman info
 

Yesterday i found some info on videocards that i really like, I think it was a review in Macaddict. They mentioned changing the orientation of a photo in photoshop from horizontal to vertical, stating that it was faster with a Radeon 9800 than with the standard video card that comes with the lower end G5 (don't remember the name of the card) specifically because of the video card. Now that was info that I could really relate to, not tech stuff. I never thought that spinning a photo was taxing for the video card, thought it was more a CPU function. so much to learn. It's hard to know if a video card is going to cut the mustard. At least if you buy the most expensive you know that you are (for the most part) getting the fastest one. Otherwise it seems like a gamble and if you lose you're out some time and money.
What could one sell a 2001 733 quicksilver for with 1500 ram if anyone cares to answer? $500? $750? I have no idea.

It would go for around $800 USD on ebay.

Trevor

thanks Trevor
 

and Bedouin. Tonight I'm leaning toward a G5. I'll report back about what I decide, for what it's worth.
thanks, S

Anyone knows about a problem with G4 733 QS working with an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro Mac & PC Edition?

I've read about it and I want to buy one but I'm not so sure....

Before buying, verify that that card will work in a 4x AGP slot, such as the one in your QS. The OEM ATI Radeon 9600 Pros that originally shipped in PowerMac G5s do not, and need to be modified to work in a 4x slot: http://www.techseekers.net/modules.p...wcontent&id=71

I'm not positive about the Mac&PC Edition, but it should say on the packaging whether it works in a 4x AGP.

Trevor

Trevor,

Well, I checked the specs and it said that works with AGP 4x and 8x.

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...mac/specs.html

But, I don't remember in what forum I've read that a user said that doesn't work on G4 733 QS ..... and why it doesn't work?

If the specs say that it works on an AGP 4X, then it should work on your Quicksilver just fine. Either the person on the forum got a bad card, and incorrectly attributes it to an incompatibility, or more likely they have a Radeon 9600 Pro OEM (not the Mac and PC version that you are looking at), and the OEM version of this card does not work on an AGP 4X slot without modification.

Trevor

I take a look on techseekers link that you posted and OEM version really needs some modification because the AGP 3.0 Slot.

How can I check my AGP slot configuration? There's an application for that?

Are you asking how to verify that your Quicksilver really has an AGP 4X slot like I said it does?

If so, you can check Apple's website for the Quicksilver 2001's specs. They are here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43106 Look on page 2 under "Graphics support", where it says "One of the following graphics cards, installed in a dedicated AGP 4X graphics slot:"

Or are you saying that you're not sure that you really have a Quicksilver 2001?

Trevor

Trevor,

I have a Quicksilver 2001 !! I'm sure about that! ;)
What I want to know it information about the slot, like volt, etc....

Well, I found the user review that I read about the Radeon 9600 Mac & PC edition.....

Look at this:

Let me save you people some trouble.
1). This card does work on pc's.
2) Apple Computer has pulled it from the Apple Store
3) It does NOT work on G4 towers with the exception of the "MIRROR-DOOR Models ONLY! "
4) ATI tech support acknowledged to me that they where only able to get the card to run on a MIRROR-DOOR MODEL G4 and nothing else, yet it continues to be marketed for "AGP G4 Towers". There are no AGP cards currently manufactured for the G4 Tower. THe only card which works at this time is the Radeon 9200 (PCI). If you need an AGP card you MUST go to eBay for it. Please Believe me on this...I learned the hard way and want to save you the hassles that I went through. :-)

Hi, I found the answer.... I think that everybody NEEDS to know that!

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...estionID=21888


737-21888: No Display using Radeon 9600 PRO PC & MAC Edition in the "Quicksilver", "Quicksilver 2002" and "Digital Audio" Power Mac G4 models



The information in this article applies to the following configurations:
Radeon® 9600 PRO PC & MAC Edition
"Quicksilver" Power Mac G4 model
"Quicksilver 2002" Power Mac G4 model
"Digital Audio" Power Mac G4 model
The Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition is not compatible with the "Quicksilver", "Quicksilver 2002" or the "Digital Audio" PowerMac G4. If a Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition board is installed in one of these systems the result is a blank display.

Despite ATI's tech document, there are some reports on the web about people successfully installing the Radeon 9600 Mac & PC edition on a Quicksilver. For example: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/sep05/092205.html
In any event, the forum posting is definitely incorrect when claiming "There are no AGP cards currently manufactured for the G4 Tower. THe only card which works at this time is the Radeon 9200 (PCI)."

The Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition is currently being manufactured, is an AGP card, and works just fine in a Quicksilver. And it's a better card than the Radeon 9600.

Trevor

this is very late in the conversation, but I thought I would add it in. I never buy mac edition video cards, they are just over priced. I buy the PC version and flash the bios with a mac rom. I have successfully done this with GeForce 4 and Radeon cards in the past. It is kind of a lengthy process but I explain how it is done in this thread here:

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showth...ht=flash+video

It does require access to a PC, but in the long run you can get video cards way cheaper. I have a G4 MDD, a G4 Cube, a B&W G3, and a G4 gigabitE all with flashed cards (these are ones I have done and they still work, but I don't own the machine) and they all still run.

The cube was the hardest one, since the cube takes a specific sized AGP card to be able to be bolted down to the case. My remedy was to zip tie it, and it worked.

Hi tlarkin,

My understanding is that this is not always as easy as you make it sound. For example, the Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition has a larger flash memory chip than it's Wintel counterparts, and so reflashing a PC version of the 9800 Pro first requires PCB soldering of a replacement flash chip--beyond the abilities of many people. If anyone is interested in directions for doing that, they can be found here: http://www.techseekers.net/modules.p...wcontent&id=72

If you know of an easier way to reflash a Radeon 9800, though, please let us know.

Trevor

I did make some mention about certain revisions of cards may differ. I found this quote on that same article you posted...

I never once ran into that problem with the radeon 7k. I have flashed probably over 15 of them in the past couple years. The radeon 7000 came out at a time where Quartz Etreme was just coming out and was a very viable upgrade for older macs that wanted to upgrade to Panther. There have been probably over 15 to 20 companies that manufacture that card besides ATI. I always went with the cheapest one and it always worked. Also, I noticed that the english was either from the UK or from Aus, hence the way they spelled realised (vs realized). Which brings up another aspect. European chips are manufactured differently than US chips. I have worked with Eurosoft diagnostics and European hardware and it is designed differently than it's US counter-parts. There are tons of minor differences.

So, yes you are correct that could happen, but at the same time, it could just work. More than likely my guess is that the mac edition and the PC edition cards in that arcticle are not from the same release.

You make a good point though I need to point out myself. you have to do this at your own risk, you do run the risk of ruining the card itself. I have never once ruined a card (*knocks on wood*) but there have been people who have. Whether it was because of error on their behalf or just a plain incompatability with the rom I have no idea.

For me it is no big deal b/c I flash the firmware on devices all the time and am totally used to it.

Thanks for the further information.

So, have you ever reflashed a Radeon 9800 Pro?

Trevor

yes I have and i totally typed a bunch of stuff in and then accidently closed out the window when I did the wrong mouse gesture....:mad:

okay i will rewrite this then...

Yes, I have flashed 9800s successfully out of the box with out soldering chips onto it. When i look at flashing a higher end card, i look at a company that makes a series of cards like the Hercules 3D prophet line, the Evga line, or of the likes (diamond makes a line, mad dog does, so on and so forth).

These companies tend to make video cards a certain way. They manufacture the card the complete same way and then firmware profile the extra features out. For example, EVga made a line of Gefore 6800 cards: the 6800, 6800GT, and the 6800GT Ultra. All of which are the same phsyical card minus one major difference. The firmware (bios) disables some pipelines and features which can be enabled again using for lack of a better term, a hack. So you can buy a vanilla 6800 and use a hack to open up all the pipelines and slightly overclock it to make it a 6800GT Ultra, and there is like a 250 to 300 dollar price difference in those cards !!!

Check out the riva tuner

So picking a card from a line like this may be the best bet, but again since it was like 2 to 2.5 yrs ago I can't remember exactly what brand of cards I flashed - sorry :(

Here is a quote from an arctile I found searching the internet trying to remember some stuff, but did have some relevance...

It is way cheaper for a manufacturer to make one card and then hardware profile the bells and whistles out via firmware, and it is now also a common practice.

**EDIT** here is the source of the quoted info above

http://mapage.noos.fr/campahunta/oth...convertEN.html