The realities of switching from Windows to Mac OS
 

Or, "How to win people over to the Mac instead of driving them off."

I'm in the process of switching. Despite what Mac people have said, not because of it. And definitely despite Apple's stupid, condescending, and offensive ads that make me feel like I should only use a Mac if I'm a moron or a hippie. When someone lies to me about one thing, I distrust everything else he has to say. So I might have switched much sooner if it wasn't for all that.

1. Let's get over the "Windows crashes all the time" crap. It doesn't. I'm an IT consultant supporting hundreds of Windows XP, 2000, and 2003 machines. They don't crash. Simple as that. They run, and keep running. Patches are applied easily. Apps install easily. There are occasional problems as with any technology item, but no more than there are on the Macs. They're not perfect either. If you think they are because YOURS never crashes, you need to remember that you're just one example. I get to see hundreds of examples.

2. "Windows is ugly." Get real. For one, you can skin Windows to look like anything you want--even OS X. Secondly, all I did every time someone told me that was roll my eyes. I like eye candy, but if that's all an OS has going for it, I don't want it. Plus, I and a few million other people don't think Windows is ugly at all. OS X is prettier, sure, but that doesn't make Windows outright ugly.

3. Viruses. It's a good point, but don't harp on it too much, since good virus protection makes it a non-issue. Just make the point and move on. Same for spyware.

4. Hardware plug-and-play. It's mostly a non-issue these days since everything related to drivers has improved so much. Don't try to make arguments that applied to an OS version from five years ago. There is a small margin of favor to the Mac here; it does work out-of-the-box with many devices. Then again, ALL devices have Windows support, and some don't have Mac support at all. Touche. Since most people haven't had device problems, you lose them when you try to convince them that Windows has all these device issues--it doesn't.

5. Performance. OS X is leaner and faster than Windows. The applications and data files are THE SAME though. Net result...comparable Mac and Wintel machines perform about the same in the real world in real use. Some things which depend on pure clock ticks to do, like some pure math work, will happen faster on a Wintel due to the faster clock. Some things happen faster on the Mac due to better architecture.

6. OS X is simpler to use. Well, sorta. But here's where the user's expectations and abilities change the rules. OS X makes all of the basic and intermediate stuff very easy to do. Advanced stuff gets very complicated because it is purposely hidden from the user. Windows, on the other hand, makes it easier to do the hard stuff, generally.

The bottom line is that OS X has one distinct advantage, which nobody ever told me about:

Out of the box, it provides a more complete, rich, and attractive user experience. More apps and utilities are built in. Most things you would want to do are already there. A thousand little tiny detail things are just done better on the Mac, and put together, they add up to a big advantage. Sometimes Windows forces you to get an add-on or to take steps to accomplish something which is just *done* on the Mac.

This provides balance against the Mac's greater cost. I haven't done the numbers, but I think you'd find that you'd narrow the cost a bit when you factor in the built-in capabilities. And some silly little things like Sherlock save a lot of time, even for a very experienced computer/web power user like myself. I turn to it more often every day.

I await your flames... :cool:

I use Windows a good part of the week and am inclined to agree with most of what you say. I do think there's good data around on Macs being more trouble-free and less expensive to maintain, so that's an added plus.

As for Apple's advertising . . . hyperbole rules, Dude. ;)

If you like sherlock, check out Watson
http://www.karelia.com/watson/
It has more tools, and I (and many others) like it more than Sherlock.
Unfortunately it will not be fully supported after October 5th (it was bought by Sun and that's the date the original author is no longer allowed to use the source code). But it seems that it is now a free download, and you can still get the tools to develop your own Watson tools.

Glad to hear you're giving the Mac a try... maybe you can get some of the hundreds of Windows machines you support replaced with Macs in the future. ;-)

All I can say, is one's view depends quite a lot on what type and size of environement you're in. I won't bore anyone with the details, but I work for a very large enterprise that is predominantly Windows based and consistantly, I am glad that I work primarily with Macs.

We've got a Linux server in here now, so anything is possible. I think once some of the "I just want my machine to work easily" type users see my new Powerbook, they will consider the jump.

Oh yeah, I did forget one item on my list:

Apple hardware is "better" or "more advanced." Sorry, but the reverse is mostly true. I've had this go-round with a number of people. The absolute best Powerbook I can get (which arrives tomorrow, woohoo!) is still of lesser overall specification than my $1500 Dell I bought 9 months ago. I'm not talking about processor speeds and such, but things like LCD resolution, battery life, DVD recording speed, etc. My Dell has 1920x1200 resolution in a 15.2" screen, making the machine much smaller (though thicker). Battery life in the REAL WORLD is 4 hours and 45 minutes. The HD is faster than what I get with the top of the line Powerbook (5400 RPM, 16MB cache). I have Firewire too, though not 800, but what 800 devices are really available for the average user?

On the plus side for the Powerbook, the allow housing does make it run a lot cooler, with less fan run noise. The Mac takes less power to run, so the power adapter is MUCH smaller, and spare batteries are much smaller/lighter. The lighted keyboard is SO nice for us frequent air travelers (but the front-load CD is horrible for us).

And of course, the Mac is so pretty...

I look foward to the wide eyes I'll get from my other IT geek colleagues when they see that thing. I've never seen one at the Cisco stuff I attend, or really anywhere geeks congregate. Should be fun.

I would think that the 5400RPM HD I have in my PowerBook is the same as one in a Windows laptop.

I agree, it just didn't come with it. I'll probably swap it out, since HD speed does make a measurable difference in my daily use. Maybe spring for one of the 7200 RPM drives but smaller capacity (don't need even half of that 80GB).

Nope, definitely had to pay extra for it. 3rd party hardware that comes in Apple boxes is one of those things. Switchers (and Mac-heads) are often agog over the price differential between comparatively similar hardware. Video cards are a prime example. But it's all about supply and demand.

The great thing with current Apple hardware is that you can usually use compatible non-Apple parts. The HD and memory are great examples, as they are just standard parts. I'm surprised much of the Apple aftermarket companies still exist, since most of the parts/accessories they supply are no different from Wintel-compatible stuff.

I'm astounded that you paid extra for a hard drive that is identical in every way to that used in a PC. Just because it doesn't say "Macintosh" on the box doesn't mean you can't use it. I get so tired having to tell clients to go back to the store and purchase the peripheral I'd instructed them to purchase because a salesman insisted that it wouldn't work in a Mac.

I personally refuse to get into another Mac vs. PC debate. I grew tired of defending a superior design and platform years ago. I've been working with computers long before either existed, and never have I opened a PC and marveled at the engineering effort it took to construct the device. I've yet to install an OS into a PC and have it work perfectly and with only one restart. Too many times I've had to reinstall not just the OS, but the entire drive simply because I couldn't get past the blue screen otherwise. Yes. Virus and Spyware protection are available, but so rarely are they installed in time or updated frequently enough to avoid major problems.

Well, that's subjective. I didn't pay for it, my work did. Which is OK by me. Look at it this way, it's not like I can get a powerbook without a hard drive. And the upgrade from 60GB 4200RPM drive to an 80GB 5400RPM drive was ~$100. I definitely couldn't buy an OEM 80GB 5400RPM drive for $100. So this was really a no-brainer.

I aggreed with most of what you say and i try not to get into mud slinging contests between mac and pc because i feel that they are alot closer now then they used to be. I also use a PC alot and support people that do as well. I have no say over the machine i use at work as my main computer because of company standards and such, but i used ot have two different 98 machines and they crashed on me at least 2-3 times a day. once i went to 2k that stopped. it still crashes once in a great while but it is pretty solid. i use xp a good amount too, but it is not my main machine at work, but it does seem to be just as stable. most of the people that know me know that i am into computers alot and that i do tech support so i get asked alot what they should get. one of the most common questions is if they should get a mac or pc. of course i am biased but i do not always suggest a mac (believe it or not) i look at what they are going to be doing and what their skillset and experience is on and if they like to learn new things and the $ they want to spend and so on. It seems like the first thing that people always say about macs is how expensive they are and some that are fooled by the mhz myth say they are slow. yes the entry level ones are more expensive than a low end pc but people always forget that the low end pc usually has low end hardware and very little styling (imho). ok i could go on and on, but i am going ot stop here.

I support both platforms (and a few others) and have done so for close to 20 years now. I actively encourage my customers to use both together, since each has specific strengths and weaknesses. And they work and play better together now than ever before. As well as the third platform currently growing; the Linux folks. I happen to think diversity is a good thing.


I'm also very pleased at the restraint shown here as far as the 'platform holy wars' tactic is concerned. Keep it up. :)

The truth hurts and reality sucks if you use windows
 

Here is the reality, get use to it!!!

http://ptech.wsj.com/ptech.html

You haven't opened some of the newer mini-systems, 1U rack servers, or the latest high-end designs then. Some of them are very impressive.

But again, I don't buy computers so their insides will look pretty, and most other people don't either. Computers are about functionality, with a slight nod toward looking decent externally if they have to be visible. Their innards are irrelevant as long as they work. This again is one of those pro-Mac arguments that backfires because most people want the machine to work, not to have impressive innards.

As someone who is involved in supporting hundreds of machines, I can tell you that one of these things is true:

1. You've been doing this on cheap, garbage hardware.
2. You're using bad copies.
3. You're doing something to cause the problems.

It's as simple as that, because out of a hundred machines, I can expect maybe one or two to have a minor issue when installing any current Windows OS. I do this, I supervise it, and have to provide high level support to people who do it, and I'd be a millionaire it was as problematic as you say.

Like I said, when Mac evangelists say stuff like this to Windows users who KNOW it isn't quite that bad, then the rest of what is said is tossed out. That's really the point of my post; I'd have become a user sooner if it wasn't for all the glaring BS on this topic.

A great example of the BS hype that kept me away from Macs for a long time. Since this is obvious bull, I assume all the rest of the Mac info is too.

BTW, my very first contact with a Mac, circa 1988, was to help a graphic designer whose Mac had a virus.

CAlvarez, I do think using Windows opens one to troubles more than Macs. Having recently cleaned tons of spyware off of 36 XP machines at one place I work, I can tell you that it wasn't pretty. Not one of these users had a clue how this crap came onto their systems, and trying to explain didn't help much. So I don't think it's totally bull to say that using Windows is "asking for trouble," as trouble somehow seems to find unwitting Windows users in many, many ways. Not-taking-precautions opens the door even wider.

i problem i have with statements like "macs dont have viruses and never will and windows will always be worse" is that it is bound to not be the case. someone can and most likely will find a security hole before it is fixed and do something extremely bad with it and then the winblows (a little dig) users are going to come out with-a-guns-a-blazin!

Until that time, "Number of viruses aimed at Windows soars by more than 400%". :rolleyes:

Hopefully no one says that there will never be a Mac OS X virus. IMO, that's a pipe dream. However, even if there are 100 that appear next year, it will pale in comparison to what we've seen in the last 2 years and will see before Longoverdue ever comes out. As long as people can buy eMachines at OfficeMax, then there will be a plethora of Windows boxes eating up my bandwidth and spamming me. In this case, the overwhelming marketshare of Windows is also it's Achilles heel.

Did you read the article?
 

I have to respectfully disagree with you. In the article, he mentions how you can spend ~$170.00 to make your windows machine more secure - Like a Mac (I guess). Is this BS? I haven't spend $1.00 on mac security and it is more secure than windows, probably even if I spent the $170.00 for my windows machine.

This may not be representative of everyone, just my case:
I had my mac for a little more than a year without any security issues. I had my windows XP machine for less than a year and it has already contracted a virus that took down the entire system. If I wasn't a rational thinking person, then I would have though that the Win XP machine came shipped with the virus.

I don't think that you can write off security as easy as you are trying to do in this forum. Security is probably the number 1 issue that Microsoft is dealing with today. I base this on the fact that they are putting bounties on anyone that writes a virus that causes major economic disruptions.

thx
RLC

The author's credentials
 

How to Protect Yourself From Vandals, Viruses If You Use Windows

Info on the author. Let me know if I am missing something, but I believe that he is well recognized in his field. I also believes that he knows what he is talking about when he discusses windows. I also believe that he is like most people in that they are getting fed up with all the problems that comes with a windows machine.

http://ptech.wsj.com/walt.html

thx
RLC

CAlvarez, Your response to my post is precisely the reason I was hesitant to reply in the first place. My response was edited to extract a different meaning that could be argued. I will not argue! Squeezing a tiny motherboard into a small box is not engineering. Quality engineering produces a more reliable machine. Period. I have marveled looking inside IBM Servers. I've been impressed with Sun products. I've never been impressed with a Dell, Compaq or even an Alienware!

Yes, even more than I originally thought. First off, it doesn't even take $1 to protect Windows from viruses. Spyware protection is likewise free, though you can *choose* to pay for either (and some paid products, like Norton AV, are inferior to the free ones). Actually the easiest spyware protection is to just not use IE.

When a significant portion of the population uses Macs, then the entire Mac world will be brought to its knees with viruses and spyware, since they aren't ready. As soon as it seems profitable, it will happen. Mac OS isn't immune to this.

If people are too stupid to put virus protection on their Windows machines, then they're going to be too stupid to understand the advantages of a Mac. If they understand both, then the "advantage" isn't much of one because they'll already be running protection.

I do give you something on the spyware; that's a big issue for many people. But again, the problem is in IE, not Windows per se, plus users who willingly click on FREE! FREE! FREE! executable files and infect their own machines. The same can and will happen in Mac OS as soon as there's enough market penetration to make it profitable.

Again, my intention was not to start a holy war. Nobody's minds will be changed. I've used both, I will continue to use both, and I have my fairly rational views toward both. My point is this:

If you're going to preach Mac, try to stick to easily provable things that will get users' attention.

I agree, but you're the one that argued based on visual cues. I don't care what it looks like inside. I've seen beautiful things that have huge performance and reliability problems (Italian motorcycles, British cars...).

This is just a silly discussion and no longer worth my time.

OS X is not immune. But it would/will be a lot harder to infect an OS X machine with viruses & spyware. The need for administrator authentication for system access goes a long way in making it harder. And the openness of the lower levels of the OS makes it easier to detect and remove such (currently hypothetical) malware. The Mac community's attitude and Apple's dedication to prompt security fixes also make malware propagation much harder.

Note that the argument that OS X isn't plagued with viruses merely due to its small market share is a specious one. The Apache web server is the most common web server, yet successful attacks on web servers are far more common with the Microsoft servers that have much smaller market share.

This forum is for Mac OS X experiences, not crossplatform speculation. Knock it off.

Thank you.

CAlvarez, well said.
 

You're right about the smoke-screen of hype that surrounds the benefits of being a mac user, partly due to the crazy devotion us mac-heads (yes, me included) show to our machines.

Since I stopped using Win98 and went up to XP, I generally have a similar number of crashes as on my G4 desktop (Panther). XP is pretty stable, but its security is shocking. That can be sorted out with a free firewall (see zonealarm) and with the help of freeware supplied by www.grc.com/freepopular.htm and firewall checking https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 (a very useful resource for windows and network security).

Oh, and dont forget:
pay for some virus protection....
use firefox instead of IE
and thunderbird instead of Outlook.

And your first post hit the nail on the head - its the multitude of little things that "just work" in OSX that make the difference for me as well. Simple and intermediate things are usually all as easy as drag-and-drop, and the expert things just need a trip into UNIX, which i have enjoyed learning.

In my opinion, the following things keep me using macs:

:cool: they look great (especially the laptops and iMacs) - even on the inside, which in those beige boxes is usually a tangle of ribbon cable

:cool: (basic) security out of the box, so novice (or uncaring) users arent completely exposed

:cool: things like the dock, the ever-present menu bar, well laid out preference panes and drag-and-drop make using it easy (and INTUITIVE)

:cool: EXPOSE - i have a multibutton mouse and have my windows flying around all the time now.

:mad: on windows (95-XP) when i close the last window of an application, the app is closed. bugs the hell out of me. im so used to being able to click the close bar on Mail and the program still be running. I think this is one thing that makes PC users think they need a new computer.... they close a window then open a new file and the whole of office re-loads....

:cool: oh and did i mention expose?

Haha, it makes me insane that the Mac doesn't do that, but I may get used to it. I'm still not using it full-time, so the behavior differences are more glaring.

Say, anyone wanna buy a very nicely loaded Dell notebook...?

Two of your points:

Uptime. You learn a whole new meaning to the word when you start using Unix. I thought the same thing when i went to using OSX and FreeBSD full time about 3 years ago, back when XP had been out at least in beta for over a year, and I think it had recently hit the market.

Windows may have acceptable uptime, but Unix has RIDICULOUS uptime.

My heart broke when I had to reboot one of my mail exchangers that had an uptime of over 18 months. :(

OSX wants you to reboot for security updates, and it's not always REALLY neccessary, so yes, if you reboot every time the OS says so, your uptime won't be that high, but my uptime is usually measure in months on my desktop, and not at all unusual for it to be measured in years on my servers.

I recently had to shut down a Windows 2000 server with just under 3 years of uptime, because it was being moved to a new building. I didn't want to do it, and was going to run it on battery, until I realized the battery was too old and useless.

Uptime is great for servers, but pointless for workstations and especially notebooks.

I don't know what else to say except Where's your data? Here are real world examples
 

CAlvarez, all you are doing is talking. Where is your data? You haven't presented one piece of information to support what you are saying or what you do not want others to say. I am interested in any factual information that you have to present, but you are not providing any. I am not interested in lip service.

This will be the last factual information that I give on this topic. This is a discussion that came from a security expert that deals with these topics every day. I agree with Hayne and I agree with Jay, the security expert, on this point. Essentially that MARKET SHARE DOES NOT EQUATE TO LESS SECURITY!!! The information is FACT, not FICTION and not lip service. Here is the quote from an expert in security.

"
Of course, only time will tell, but I have a *really* hard time buying
this argument. I do not believe that the number of installations for a
given platform really has any significant bearing on the number of virii
or exploits for that platform.

**All else being equal**, this argument might work. However, in the real
world, "all else" is not equal. Platforms (OS, applications, protocols,
whatever) are very different. We can not say that OS X, Windows, Linux,
Solaris, etc... are the "same" from a security perspective except for the
number of virii for each platform. This would be far from the truth. These
platforms are all very different and each has its strengths and
weaknesses. Some are better at security than others.

All else being equal, more market share equals more security problems. Ok,
I will buy that. However, in the real world, that does not seem to hold
up. Here are some non-scientific examples:

* There are dozens of MILLIONS of non-Windows machines in the world.
However, 99.999999% (or some ridiciulous number) of all virii are only
Windows specific. If someone could write an effective UNIX virus, they
would have the potential of hitting 50+ MILLION (a conservative
number) machines. Sounds like a good sized pool of targets to me, but
there are effectively no significant UNIX virii.

* The Apache web server has well over 65% market share, while IIS has
about 20%. However, there are MANY more severe
virii/exploits/vulnerabilities in IIS than there are in Apache. Note: I am
NOT saying Apache does not have any vulnerabilities. I am simply saying
that if the market share argument were accurate in the real world, the
number of Apache exploits should be more than triple the number of IIS
exploits. This is not even close to being the case. Increased market share
does not equal decreased security.

* When we look at DNS servers, it is even better. BIND has over 80%
market share, but it does not have rampant security problems. Think of all
the havoc a little script kiddie could cause by hitting 80% of the world's
DNS servers! However, this has not happened. We do not see tons of new
BIND virii every day. Why? Increased market share does not equal decreased
security.

* Sendmail+Qmail+Postfix account for easily 80% of the world's email
servers. However, compared to Exchange, the share of security problems is
nowhere near proportional to market share. Increased market share does not
equal decreased security.

Again, only time will tell for sure. :)

~Jay"

So you see CAlvarez, in todays world, the statements you are making just don't add up.

thx
RLC

You are right, it is harder to make virii or spyware for the Mac. I've been experimenting with that, since I'm actively looking to improve security on our network. I don't think it's as simple as some of the above quotes, but I have now seen where Mac OS is better at preventing these problems.

I'm now on my third day of using a Powerbook as my primary computer. I haven't touched a Windows machine since Wednesday afternoon (well, other than our servers). So far so good. I'm still short a few apps, and I'm still pressing the wrong keys sometimes.

However, I'm shocked at how quickly I became productive on this computer. I'm even more shocked that in some applications/functions I am MORE productive than I was in Windows. Not that this machine is faster, it's not, but that I'm able to make better use of the UI and keys to work better.

This is with an external KB/mouse though. Unfortunately, the limited internal keyboard and single mouse button are slowing me down. I might get over that eventually.

i find it very annoying that windows DOES quit the software when the last window is closed, then the next time you open a picture or something you have to wait for the entire program to launch again!

Check out the utility SideTrack! This adds what I consider a cool Windows feature to the Mac's Trackpad, plus some. With this utility I have my trackpad setup so the right and bottom edges scroll Vertically and Horizontally respectively and tapping in the upper/left corner acts like a right-click. I swear by it!

I added Sidetrack a couple days ago, and it's been a huge help. I may eventually get used to that method instead of two buttons; I'm fine tuning it as I go along. So far, I've got the button to be right-click as well as a tap in the top right corner (pretty natural-feeling), and the click/drag-hold option on the pad. The vertical scroll helps with another shortcoming of the PB keyboard...no page down key. Pretty stupid. I know, fn-arrow does that, but one-handed paging is important, especially in a cramped airplane seat in coach.

I'll tell you one thing, this is by far the absolute best trackpad I've ever laid a finger on. There's nothing else like it. And the keyboard feel/ergos are top-notch.

Couple of things...

First, the touchpad. It's a Synaptics, and aside from color, identical to the ones Dell uses. Apple just has a different default acceleration setting for their trackpad. Sure is nice though, isn't it? :).

Next, the myth of a 3-year-running Win2k box... just LISTING the number of severe and exploited security holes that Win2k has had over the past 3 years that don't take effect without a reboot would be enough to make my fingers hurt. If you really had the thing running for 3 years, I'd find it close to unbelieveable that it didn't get hit by anything (Sasser or Blaster especially) and you must be one hell of a lazy admin not to patch your 2k server boxes. That said, if the machine wasn't hooked up to the 'net and wasn't doing anything except, say, serving internal web pages to a company... then I'd say whoop-dee-doo. You could have installed linux on the thing and saved your company $300.

I administer a departmental network at a University where it's a mixed environment, about 70% Macs and 30% PCs. It's absolutely true that with proper administration, WinXP/Win2k boxes can be perfectly stable and secure, but it's also true that without that administrator looking out for them, my Windows users would be in panic and turmoil in a heartbeat. I give my Mac users admin access to their machines, because I'm not worried about the security risks or the ad/junk/malware or the registry-clogging programs the user may install. I've thus far only seen one machine that needed a reinstall -- one that trashed their /Applications/Utilities folder... big problem when you can't even open .pkg files off of the OSX disks to restore them! Still, I just copied my own Utilities folder over, and voila... all was well again. The vast majority of the problems the Apple users have simply revolve around getting at windows-minded resources. File sharing and server access is probably #1 -- there are still major bugs with OSX and Win Server 2003, though finally getting great Exchange and Active Directory support were a huge help for a lot of other folks on campus (40,000 students here... it's big. I don't run M$ servers at all).

Home users have no IT support to be looking out for them, and it's for this reason that many people (particularly home users who don't know what it's like to use a well-administered Win2k/XP machine) push the Mac so strongly as a home computing platform -- you don't need anyone to be constantly patching your machine, changing firewall rules to prevent new viruses from getting in, and locking down access to the machine. The Mac home user doesn't need this support, and cite whatever reasons you may, the fact that they can go about their business without it is well worth any disadvantages I've found. (Security by obscurity is arguable, Speed vs. Price is arguable, etc... ) Consumers, rightfully so, don't care about "why," IS is what's important. The Mac IS virus, spyware, malware, adware, and popup free, it IS better equipped for consumer multimedia, and it IS less likely to require reboots.

After all that, I agree that a lot of the Mac rhetoric kept me away from OSX for a long time too... my WinXP boxes are stable, I build them cheap, and I never found Windows "hard to use" or had a real soft spot for sexy computers. The first glance I took was at someone on a powerbook configuring a smb.conf file... and from there out it was sheer love. Still, I hear you. There is too much exxagerated and untrue FUD going around... but I'd say that about politics and religion too. Any real arguable subject has its Full-Of-It, Ignorant sources (Read: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, PC Magazine, FOX News, Michael Moore... etc.) but it's YOUR responsibility to check out the claims and separate the FUD from the reality yourself. I'm glad you're among the folks who have!

I realize it's the same brand, but disbelieve the "identical" part. For one, I know that Apple has a proprietary ADB connection/circuit/whatever which handles it, not the PS/2 connection of a PC. I don't know what effect that has if any. But the fact remains that the responsiveness of the touchpad is completely different in everything, not just motion. For example, tapping is flaky on the Dell, but solid on the Appple. Same with scrolling. On the other hand, the Apple is much more sensitive, so having a finger hovering close but not touching will also make it jump. Had to re-learn my placement of the fingers that aren't using the pad. I spent hours trying to make the Dell work better, believe me, there is something very different about it. If you look at the Dell user forum, everyone complains about how horrible it is.

I didn't patch that server because the client didn't pay me to, and because of the limited access it had, I didn't feel it was a crucial issue. It's not my civic duty to apply patches for free... Fact is all ports except VPN were closed off in the firewall, and it could not get out to the world, so it was still safe even unpatched. The workstations were tied down to specific sites for net access, all of which were known safe.

Otherwise, the majority of the servers I admin have no more than a year or so of uptime, due to patching as you noted.

Mentioning home users is interesting, since now that I've been at this for a week, I still don't have working printers, scanners, and just finally got an external drive to work. And I'm a network admin (albeit, not on Macs...yet). I've hard-locked the machine twice and had it kernel-dump on me three times. Sure, that's probably normal with a new system setup, but it shows that Mac OS isn't any better at being crash-proof than any other OS.

On a brighter side...my support call to Apple this morning (regarding the problem of the VPN changing the default gateway) went very well. No solution, but I got through fast, got lots of attention, and was moved up in support levels to engineering. They are going to research it and get back to me.

Sigh...I was adding another note to this thread, left the computer for a bit, it went to sleep, and would not wake up. Had to shut it down hard (hold down the power switch). Not only lost what I was typing, but all of my VPN/dialup settings, a lot of data in Eudora, and who knows what else...

Yeah, uptime. :rolleyes:

Sorry... Apple abandoned the ADB interface since the first iMac. The trackpad connects via the USB interface the same way the Dell does. Although, I personally find Apple's accelerating process with the mouse/trackpad more natural feeling. It's all in the driver! :)

OMG! What printers are you trying to connect? OSX has built-in support for most popular USB and PS printers. It should be a breeze.

Scanners are a headache, I agree. Stay away from Epson. The drivers suck (IMO). Stick with HP. They have a great automated daemon and Twain support in Photoshop.

External FW drives are simplest if you just format the thing in Extended format. Trying to keep Windows format on a drive is asking for headaches.

It takes a lot for me to cause a kernel panic. I've never had one on my Powerbook G4. My B/W G3 desktop is another story... I've experimented with it... Boosted the bus speed to 100MHz, overclocked the processor, etc. Of course, I've caused a few panics on it... Those were my doing though. Not that of the OS. Now I've got the G4... I haven't made any hardware upgrades on it yet, so hence no Panics yet!

I think I need one of those nice red buttons that come with the HHGTTG... DON'T PANIC!

I can understand now why you started this thread, before I didn't see the point of your exercise...as a beginner, just give it time, use MacOS X for more than a year, and things will become a bit more clear for you.

I wouldn't consider that normal for any system... those are usually the red flags that something is wrong and needs attention. I've never experienced that many problems on my systems, and only systems where either (a) the hardware was having problems or (b) the user was messing with things they shouldn't have been messing with have ever given me those types of issues. I take care of around 50 Macs running either 10.2 or 10.3, a little less than half those users are home users, and if that was normal my phone would be ringing off the hook.

Well, this old PowerBook Wallstreet of mine is constantly in use (24/7), and I haven't had any problems with it the last two years since moving from Rhapsody 5.6 to Mac OS X 10.2. The last time I restarted it was to take it with me to see a client to show them the work on their site. That was a little over 114 days ago... or at least my uptime currently has my system at:

• 1:25AM up 114 days, 1:25, 3 users, load averages: 0.52, 0.51, 0.32

which was when I started it up last.

Hard-lockups and kernel panics are anything but normal... even for new systems. You might want to have that looked into. Unless you are doing things you shouldn't be doing, those aren't good signs for the health of your system.

My guess... and it is only a guess... is that you are fighting your system. You've posted quite a lot and it sure looks like you are trying to force your Mac to be a Windows system. One of the first things I learned when working with other operating systems is that if you try to make them what they are not, they tend not to work as well. I don't treat my Suns and SGIs like Macs because they aren't Macs. It is nice that you are a Windows Admin... but it sounds like you are totally new to Macs and you have already started trying to do things that may be considered... well, questionable.

When giving advice to Windows users on Macs (and I hate giving Windows users advice because they usually don't take it anyway), I tell them to give the system a chance for a few weeks. Learn how the system works. Learn why things on a Mac work the way they do before you go hacking away to make it more Windows like.

Your Mac is trying to tell you something... you might want to listen.

There are reports of problems like this with AlPBs. It started to hapen with mine after 10.3.5 (or one of the recent security updates). There are similar reports on MacFixIt and Apple's Discussion boards.

I keep seeing uptimes of 45-66 days for some of my users. Not too shabby, coming from OS9.

I don't think I've done much to make this more Windows-like. I've loaded things to make my life easier and to make the machine work more like I need it to. Things like Sidetrack to deal with multiple pointing devices (one left-handed) should not be too much to ask. Everything I've loaded has actually been something recommended here.

The last thing I want is an expensive, incompatible Windows clone; I'm using this machine to try something different. However I do expect it to be able to accomplish all the same TASKS I can do in Windows, even if it looks and feels different. So far it does not. I've tried to add a lot of hardware with varying success, like kernel dumps on plugging in a USB HD. I've actually resisted loading anything extra to make the machine more Windows-like, and while I love the Mac GUI, it could use a few little features.

In summary, based on my experience, a Mac is no more friendly or reliable than any Windows computer. Maybe it is if you simply keep it like you bought it and add few peripherals. Once you want it to do a lot of work, you're back to the same issues any other computer has. Same as Windows.

You are implying that those of us that don't have problems with our Macs aren't doing any work? I am quite offended by this.

Lots of people recommend software that works for them but that doesn't mean that it won't exhibit problems on your machine which may have a different combination of hardware & software.
To take Sidetrack as an example - doesn't that install a kernel extension? All 3rd-party kernel extensions are the first things you should suspect when experiencing kernel panics. It may work for most people but still have latent bugs when used in certain circumstances.

Often the panic.log (under /Library/Logs) will show some indication of what might be the cause of the kernel panic in its list of the active kernel extensions.

If you experience kernel panics, you should disconnect all peripherals and remove all 3rd-party kernel extensions and see if that solves the problem. Then add them back in one at a time.

As I've said elsewhere, I recommend extreme reluctance to installing anything that has system-wide effects - especially if it involves a kernel extension. Adapt to the system as it is instead of trying to make it the way you want it to be.

I agree with hayne here. I found SideTrack to render both an iBook and a PowerBook (both running Panther) extremely unstable. Once I traced the problem to SideTrack, I've not had kernel panix since. IMO, SideTrack is a great idea, but it's still a work in progress and has a long way to go.

No, I'm not. I said a "lot" of work, but realize I'm not being clear. My computer and my Pocket PC contain my entire life. Nothing exists without being in one or both of those. I have no paper files whatsoever, no paper calendar, nothing outside the computer. Both business and personal. No stamps, no newspapers, really nothing non-electronic. I spend 10 hours a day at it or more, since nearly everything about my job requires it, and because my personal life is similarly managed on it.

So...I'm not the user that takes a PowerBook and uses it sitting at the kitchen table with basic software and maybe just a printer attached. I need automated scanning abilities, multi-tray printing, extreme portability since I travel frequently, multiple backup systems since my entire life is in there, multiple pointing/keyboard devices to relieve strain and due to arthritis, and much more. I've got two USB hubs filled up and a drive on the FW port.

Without things like Sidetrack, I don't know of a way to have my left and right-handed pointing devices. So without it I'm forced to work the way the computer tells me to work, rather than telling the computer to work the way I need to. I think you'd agree that's unacceptable, especially when there's a physical, medical reason.

This certainly is not Apple bashing, but it should be noted that all of these things were very easy to accomplish on my Windows PC. Should I go back? Maybe, but I do love the GUI so much, plus the power of the Unix CLI. There is so much about Mac OS that feels so "together" and comfortable to me, which is why I keep fighting to make it work for me. As far as peripherals, it's got a ways to go for people like me.

I appreciate everyone's help here. I'm really not trying to be combative. The original point of this post is that Mac OS isn't quite as perfect as some people like to say, but it does have some very strong advantages. My goal is to make it work perfectly to me, and then recommend it to people I work with where it is appropriate (I see lots of people who would love it).

And to clarify that...I realize lots of people do serious work on it, that was just an extreme example. But the recurring them around my issues seems to be that I'm asking too much of it or doing too much to it.

I can understand your annoyance at the lack of peripherals. But this is not entirely Apple's fault. Many vendors just don't see $$$ when they thing of providing support for Macs. All they see is $$$, coupled with typical misinformation that those who don't know a lot about the Mac OS.

Your experience according to what you told us..."I'm now on my third day of using a Powerbook as my primary computer"...you need to give yourself and your Mac a bit more time to get to know each other...


I believe most people know this already. No machine is perfect...don't tell me you were looking, searching for the perfect machine? Most of these forums are about problems you encounter while running an Apple Computer and the probable solutions that can be implemented.

I read your posts and I can see you have special needs, so by all means, if all your life is in a computer and you feel more comfortable in a PC, please don't give it up, just go for it...

.

I certainly don't blame Apple. I realize its the vendors that are primarily responsible for supporting the OS. From the user perspective though, none of that matters.

The PowerBook has been my primary computer for a week now. I've been a casual Mac user for a very long time, but didn't do much with them other than goof around. Hence, I never tried to make it work as a primary platform that I use for many hours per day. I've probably put 30 hours into just working on the machine and doing research in this past week. I'll give it more time, but meanwhile I have to also do work, and need things like printers.

I do want to make this work, evidenced by the fact that I sold my perfectly good (and 8 month old) Wintel notebook. It's just frustrating sometimes.

Yes, I can read 'between the lines' your frustration, expectation and jugdement, and it could be that at the moment, you're asking too much from your Mac. Will talk about your problems with a macintosh user friend of mine also with special needs and see if he has any ideas for you.

My 2 cents (well, 0.037 CDN :)
 

It is with great interest and amusement that I have read the posts in this thread. I can’t believe that after over 20 years, they still sound the same. As this fall marks the 20 year anniversary of my first Macintosh purchase – a cute little beige 512K, external 400K floppy drive and an ImageWriter printer, all for the “paltry” price of 3,695.00CDN, plus tax– please bear with me as I add my 2 cents.

That little 512K was used to run an agricultural supply business (yes, it WAS fertilizer! … so there! ) for 5 years and it never failed me once. Subsequent to that, I had an office product and computer retail business where I sold both Macs and PCs. As anyone else who has can attest, it was always a difficult sell to get the Macs out the door, with the price differential at the time. In my empirical observations, it was always a different sort of person who would go with the Mac; not mainstream, shall we say. During this time, I graduated from the Plus to the SE20 to the ‘awesome’ Mac II – in living colour! – and the crowning glory of a dual monitor installation; 21” main and 13” aux. Alas, the release of Windows 3.1 was the final straw. With it came, what most mainstream people thought, was the primary benefit of the Mac – point-and-click – with a reasonable interface.

I have gone on to do many other things, but a majority were computer-related in some shape or form, including a recent 4 month stint as a “technical support engineer” (?) in a call centre supporting HP-Compaq systems. Well, the “great unwashed masses” haven’t gotten any better; just more of them – and faster, due to, in part, the proliferation of fast, cheap systems and the internet. But I do still have most of my hair.

What I am trying to get across, I suppose, is that there always was, and always will be the ‘great debate between, or over, these to systems, or in any other area where there is a choice. This one’s better for this, that one’s better for that, ad infinitum. But for me, anyway – and it is why I am now going back to the Mac – it has always boiled down to just one word: cool! And if you don’t believe that ‘cool’ is a good enough reason to buy one thing over another, well, hmmm …any of you here in advertising?

Thanks for your patience in letting me ramble on.

Lyle – a soon-to-be 20” iMac-G5 owner!…cool, man!

My "great debate" goes back even farther. Let's set the Wayback Machine to 1979, my first year of high school. I took on the task of building the Heathkit H8 microcomputer and H19 terminal which the school had bought the year before. "Build" at that time meant thousands of discrete components.

After a couple months I had a working computer with 4k of static RAM, a cassette tape for the OS and programs, a non-grapical 80x24 display, and a 110 baud acoustical modem. Once the OS and BASIC interpreter were loaded up, I had 3.1k of memory left to program in.

Then the Apple arrived one day... Rather glorious in a sense, with full graphics and gobs of memory. I think 16k, or something phenomenal like that. It also had a 5.25" disk drive that held huge amounts of information, retrievable instantly (compared to a cassette tape). I remember writing a Space Invaders clone for it, which was fun to play, but I really didn't like it as a computing platform. I still stuck with the Heathkit machine for "real work." I'd retire to the Apple when I wanted to goof off or play a game (other than Adventure, if you remember that game).

And that pretty much has been my relationship with Apples until last week. Other than many years ago when I got a Newton, and was forced to use the Macs in the computer store just to load apps on it, until they made a Windows sync program.

I still have a Quadra 650AV and a PPC 9100AV at home.

I work 30 hours a week for a market research company. We've used Apple as an example of how not to market. I'm still embarassed to walk down the Apple aisle in stores, because I don't want to be "one of those people." The ones I see in the commercials I mean. And I most certainly don't want to be a poddie.

This thread is starting to ramble again. There used to be an actual topic at some point.


The Coat Room is a few doors below. :p

I think you should start taking this into account as a real possibility.

You are severely handicapped in this endeavor. You see yourself as a Super Computer guy and have continuously displayed distain for Mac users and the Mac way of computing. With all that, there is no way you are going to be able to put yourself in the proper mind set for the task at hand. You are just really not open to new ways of doing things.

I suggest you read your own posts in this forum. You are a Windows user. Windows is on your mind all the time. It is how you see computing.

Honestly, I don't see you getting past this. You take far too much pride in your Windows experience to let yourself be what you really are on a Macintosh... a completely inexperienced user. Your system is displaying issues that are real signs that something is going wrong... but I'll bet that you would never stoop to the level of asking someone in your local Mac community to help.

I'm not sure why you bought a Mac. But I think you need to start taking a real strong look at the possibility that you are not... and may never be, a Mac user.

With all the issues you are having (far more than any normal user or switcher I've come across), you'll never get to the point of finding out what is truly special about the Mac platform. You'll always see it as not working quite right, and that will cloud everything else.

Some Mac users feel we need every person we can get to save the platform. Personally, I think people should use what works best for them. You, in my opinion, are a true Windows user. And I have met tons of people just like you that I would never suggest a Mac to. But there are some people that thrive with the freedom that the Mac environment offers. Some have never even heard of Macs or have had people like you tell them that you can't do real work on a Mac. Those people I think should be given the time and energy to help them find what works best for them. And yes, I have -shudder- converted a few people to Windows.

Please... please, if you are not going to give this platform a fair chance, just save yourself the anguish and go back to Windows. I honestly think, for you, this is the best course of action.


:rolleyes:

I'm guessing that, as I'm a Mac user (one of those people), you are going to disregard this. Keep in mind that you are asking these questions of yourself too... which means it is coming from a Windows user whose opinion you respect above all others. ;)

You see me that way. I don't. And the only disdain I have for Mac users is for the image marketed to me by Apple. I've learned real Mac users aren't that.

I'm already there. Why do you think I keep trying to make it work?

Freedom?!? Now you've got me curious. Freedom from what? Peripherals that just plug in and work? Freedom from buying just anything at any store and having it just plug in and get to work? There are a lot of things I like about Mac OS, but there is no freedom. Apple has deigned how you will work, and by god, that's all you need. If you needed more, Apple would have given it to you.

That's rather arrogant and offensive. What do you think I'm doing here? How many times do you think I've been at the local Apple stores and have you any idea whether I've joined the local MUG, been to a meeting, or tried to educate myself? I thought I'd made it clear in most of my writing that I have very little clue on Mac OS, and I'm hear to learn. A lot, in a short time, so I can actually get some work done.

I don't believe anyone could be more committed to switching than I am. I've spent well over $3k to replace a perfectly good computer with one that still doesn't do everything I need. Some people would call that stupid. Come to think of it, I hear it at home every day, but she likes Linux and Windows, so what does she know...

Hey RacerX, lets not get personal here! CALverez is only being honest about what appears to be a very frustrating first week as a mac user.

CAlverez - sao is a regular and experienced poster here, so it might be an idea to see what he can dig up. It sounds like you are experiencing the most annoying bit of the mac world - lack of peripherals with good support.

From this thread it seems that we have been of at least some help: identifying SideTrack as the most likely source of your kernal panics. Your first stop might be to remove it and see if the panics stop. If they do, at least you will know what needs your attention. You might have to find an alternative (either software or hardware) or get in touch with the Sidetrack people and give them 'feedback'.

Re: printers, if you cant get the default apple drivers to run them, try the gimp-print option, which covers many more printers (albeit with maybe limited support, ie no watermarking etc). If that still doesnt work, you might have to swap them. Again, the most annoying bit of mac-world is peripheral compatability.

Truly, that pretty much covers it. And unfortunately it looks like I'm one of a handful of people who take document imaging seriously, and I'm the only one using a Mac... I simply can't find a product for that (software/hardware both). But now I'm running an old version of PaperPort in Classic so I can get by. I had forgotten how much nicer OS X is over the old stuff, visually.

I thought Sao had some ideas, and I was going to try removing Sidetrack. Now I can't make it fail again at will, so I can't make a solid controlled comparison. It's like it has chilled out and stopped having problems.

Definitely. For whatever it's worth, or may be interesting to others. I've found it useful when Mac users have told me about switching to Windows. And the original intent was to give people ideas on what to tell Windows users so they'll have an open mind regarding OS X. Not necessarily to "sell" it, but at least not to turn them off.

hmm, "document imaging" - what do you mean by that?? I took a trip to the PaperPort web site (PC only!) and think i might be seeing what you are needing - a tight integration between laptop and tablet PC for all of your electronic documents. Shame there isnt an OSX version.

Next time you get kernal panics, check out the log file (/Library/Logs) and send it to the SideTrack developer. You are using beta software, after all!

good luck

I thought we covered this already.

.

CAlvarez,

Hope some of the following info can help...

------------------

--Have you tried the Fujitsu ScanSnap fi-5110EOX?

"It is the best (probably the only) high speed scanner that works with OS X. The ScanSnap is sheet fed - small footprint on the desktop. It has ADF for up to 50 sheets. It scans in full color, and scans both sides of the page at the same time. It is incredibly fast, and scans to perfect PDF's".

You can use it in MacOS X, although Fujitsu doesn't admit it's OS X compatible (the scanner is not TWAIN, but will run in OS X using the software provided by Fujutsu). You can download the Scansnap manager for Macintosh from:

http://scansnap.fujitsu.com/jp/downl...10eox.html#mac

It's in Japanese but it will work as-is, without any configuring. It will scan duplex if the document is printed on both sides. It will use preview to show the final scanned document, you can then print to pdf. If you run the scansnap manager, the first tab has a drop down menu where you can either choose preview or adobe to show the final scans. The second tab is where you can designate your scans to be saved. For only front side scan of a doc with print on both sides, check the third tab in the scansnap manager, and the bottom drop down menu. The button on the bottom of the second tab is how you want the file names to appear. It wont matter if you change the format of the file name because it will be in japanese anyway. The third tab is where you can set the scan quality. The tabs are self explanatory. The third, fourth and fifth tabs are also self explanatory.

-------------------

--Have you tried WorkingPapers X 2.2.1 ?

"WorkingPapers lets you scan in business documents and color photos using many of today's leading scanners".

http://www.dominionsw.com/products.html

Suggested scanners:
http://www.dominionsw.com/suggested.html

For example, you could try as an alternative WorkingPapers with the Systec TravelScan 464 as a replacement for PaperPort with Visioneer StrobePro, which is not supported on OS X.

-------------------

--To do full-page scans of documents while on the go, it would be interesting to follow the developement of "DocuPen":

http://www.docupen.com/

From The 'FAQs':
"Is the DocuPen compatible with MACs?
The DocuPen handheld scanner is currently hardware compatible with MACs, However, the current version of the bundled software does not include the MAC driver support. We are currently working to developing the MAC drivers. Once released, current PC users will have access to the new MAC drivers free of cost. Also, please sign up for Planon's E-newsletter to receive news of when the MAC version will be released first hand".

-------------------

--Emulation
http://manila.mems.rice.edu/behr/activities/paperport

"For those dark days when booting into OS 9 is not an option, I also have the Strobe Pro USB scanner, which, in limited experiments, functioned correctly within Windows 2K, within VirtualPC 5.0.4, within Mac OS X 10.2.3. One needs to "capture" the device in the VirtualPC USB control panel, and I found it necessary to cycle the power to the scanner (read remove and replace the power cord) before it was accessible from Windows. In a clear case of negative progress, the Strobe Pro is twice as slow in black and white scans as the Strobe, possibly due to limitations of USB compared to SCSI interface. I wouldn't be surprised if the newest Strobe XP100 was even slower, due to a USB-powered transport mechanism".

------------------

Some other places to check:

Visigo™ A4 Mac
http://www.ambir.com/product.asp?item=PS464M

Morena 6.1 - Image Acquisition Framework for Java™ Platform overview
http://www.gnome.sk/Twain/jtp.html

iView MediaPro 2.6 -PDF management or any image management in general-
http://www.iview-multimedia.com/

PaperPort Preservation Society - A nonaligned home for PaperPort Mac Users.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paperp...vationsociety/
In the "Files" of the "Members Only" section, you can download and try "PaperPort Viewer 5.6 OS X".

Haystack
http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/index.html

-------------------

.

Good work, Sao!

You've also reminded me why I gave up on Visioneer and the PaperPort scanner somewhere around 1999: the proprietary file format and the need to install 'PaperPort Viewer' on every system that needed to access the data. :rolleyes:

Carlos: are they still doing that in the Windows version you're using or have they adopted a more portable format like PDF, PNG, TIFF or even RTF yet? If they have there's all sorts of things a person can do to access the files.

What I mean is that I don't have a single paper file in my home or office at all. None. I haven't for about five or six years. It's all in my laptop.

Sao, good finds, and thanks for your efforts. I'd seen a couple of those, but some are new and promising. The Fujitsu scanner is simply above my price range and rather large. I've actually sold that unit to clients for high-volume work, but I simply scan a few pages per day. I have the TravelScan 464, but it just won't work at all. Not recognized. Could be a defective one. I also have a TravelScan Pro, and found that to be very flaky at best on the Windows machine, so I'm suspicious of everything from that manufacturer.

PaperPort moved to PDF scanning many years ago. No more proprietary viewer. It's very, very nice. You stick a sheet in the scanner, even without running the software first, and it just takes it and goes. You can file it, or just let the system OCR it, which adds every word on the page into a fully searchable index with fuzzy logic to make up for mis-recognized characters. Extremely effective. The speed and ease is perfect for someone like me who is very lazy(COUGH) time-efficient, I mean.

I'm playing with their ancient version for OS 9, and it works perfectly, but is simply ugly and clunky to use. A reasonable temporary solution so I'm not dead in the water, and I can keep researching with a little less panic.

Yes, I used it in Hong Kong on my old 8500 till 1997, then I moved briefly to South America so I still must have it in storage over there. :)

.

I'm just going to skip the whole bit on IT arrogance and try to help out...

First off, Sidetrack. Wonderful program, but it's shaky -- It causes my 15" not to wake from sleep sometimes. Completely unacceptable. There are other alternatives out there, including older versions of Sidetrack. That said, being a Windows pro you should know what to do when your system is having severe crashes -- go back to square one, and install things one item at a time until you find out what's causing the glitch. If you've had the thing 3 days, you're relatively new to the mac, and you're already installing kernel-level modules, it's no wonder you're having issues.

That said, I hear your complaints about OSX and many enterprise-level tasks. While almost any peripheral device "works" with OSX, not all that many work WELL with it. You almost have to buy devices that are made for OSX, and I'm always hesitant to invest in expensive peripherals after watching how many went unsupported from OS9 --> OSX for months or years... or still.

There are some things that seem a little ridiculous -- I've never had trouble with any USB hard drives, any printers (yes, you may have to go get drivers from the manufacturer or use cups -- tough shizzle), or any sort of kernel panic problems -- aside from my Sidetrack/Wake From Sleep issue, I've never had my Powerbook kernel panic on me, and of the roughly 50 Macs that are around at work, I have yet to see one kernel panic except one with a dead HD.

Do what any professional would do -- step back, and take it one problem at a time. Aside from gaming, there's almost nothing your Mac can't do.

Good advice of course. On the 3 days thing, I bought a PB a little over a week ago to be my primary computer in place of a Dell laptop; I have had Macs for a lot longer, but just never used them seriously. They were for games, video, and goofing around. So I have some exposure, just not as much as the Wintel platform.

I haven't gone backwards in my installations because I haven't been able to readily recreate the problem. So I can't test reliably until I know I can make it fail reliably.

My point about crashes and problems is not to bash the platform, but to say that really it can have problems just like any other. Windows is nice and stable if you leave it alone too. Add system extensions, and any machine can have some issues.

Right now I'm actually zeroing in on reproducing the lockups; they seem related to unplugging the external monitor, believe it or not. I thought it was related to sleep since I often do both together (pull off the external devices, close it, and carry it to a meeting or home, etc).

It's certainly true that an OSX Mac is not the end-all be-all of computers as it's sometimes evangelized here as being, though it seems that it's only the folks who also use Windows that seem to have a handle on that. The Mac platform certainly can have problems, and it's sometimes even harder to track down useful help, in that 90% of the advice given on "Mac Help" forums is "Go repair your drive permissions."

That said, those problems are, from my experience, about ten times more common with Windows systems, and they're also about ten times harder to track down. You'll also probably wake up one day realizing that you haven't reformatted your Mac in 6 months, and it still works perfectly... and once you see people's home Macs that haven't been reformatted in 4 or 5 years, you'll be even more impressed at how well they still work compared to Windows machines in that category.

My PowerTower Pro hasn't been reformatted in 6 years. Last reformat was for a new drive. This computer has been through 6 OS's (8, 8.5, 9, X (1,2 & 3) without reformat.

My Blue and White, hadn't been reformatted in 2 years. Carbon Copied the previous drive to new drive after first 2 years.

My Powerbook 12", 800MHz hasn't been reformatted in 1.75 years (since new).

I just got the G4 a couple of months ago, but exchanged the drives directly from the G3. No reformat. Of course, the G3 got a G4's drive with a new format.

While I have no qualms with installing OS's clean, I rarely see a reason to reformat.

Heh, I've blown up and reformatted my Macs far more often than that, but usually it's because I want a newer OS or did something to kill it (they were always toys to experiment on). I've never kept my primary computer for more than 2 years, with 12-14 months being more typical, so one install of Windows or Mac OS will certainly take care of that ownership time. I had to laugh when the guy tried to sell me the 3-year warranty...by then I'll be on my third notebook already...

The "format every 6 months" is another one of the Windows myths. We've got around 55 machines here still reliably Windows 98 every day without any attention. Same with some of the Pentium 300-class machines that have been on XP for many years without any repairs.

The random lockups and crashes on the PowerBook seem to have randomly stopped... I didn't do anything to fix it, just added more and more software and extensions.

I've never re-formatted to upgrade any version of Mac OS. In fact, on my Pismo, I've installed every upgrade/update (25 and counting!) of Mac OS X over previous versions with no problem. Performance is very good (OK . . . waiting for G5 Powerbooks ;)).

I didn't mean to say it was necessary, just like it's not necessary with Windows. I did it that way since the machines were all just for playing around, so there was no need to save anything on them. And like I said, I was often abusing them, so having clean machines was better.

The second a PowerBook with a high-resolution screen becomes available, I'm dumping this one. I believe that will be sooner rather than later, so I can't imagine I'll even go a year on this one. So I guess I'll get to learn how data migration across Macs works...

If it weren't for Windows........
 

I work in a large national call center where we provide technical support for customers using broadband internet services. I can say from personal experience that of all the calls that come in for technical assistance, approximately 98% of those calls are from Windows users. I can also say that a large percentage of the issues deal with hardware conflicts and viruses and or spyware complications. The fact that fewer than 2% of the calls come from Mac users does not mean there are necessarly fewer of us out there; just fewer experiencing any issues (not that the Mac isn't prone to having its own set of problems). But, from where I sit, if it weren't for the majority of Windows users, us Mac users would be out of a job.

The statistics are a bit off there though. All of the Mac Users I know, call me before resorting to a Tech Support number. If I don't have the answer, I likely know a Mac user that will. They've learned that it saves them a lot of time and bother from likely non-Mac tech support people. Most Mac users don't like being told it must be a flaw with the Mac that something doesn't work.

</lurk>

hi, I work with an awful lot of macs, and a ton of mac laptops and I just thought I'd throw out a quick point.

Most of the kernal panics I've seen on laptops (and several desktops) are tied to plugging and unplugging devices, and some of it is sort of expected, when you look back at what you may have done.

We all flub a plug in or out once in a while and I've noticed that many of the laptops may CLAIM hot switching plug-n-play but it's still an awfully good idea to remember a few things:

1 - (no brainer) make sure the device being removed isn't activley being used.

2 - Never feel around the plug with the plug to get it in. (this isn't the drive-in it's, well, more technical and the tolerances are less. :)

3 - If you've added third party (or fourth, in some cases) software for a piece of hardware, don't be too surprised if it wsn't written smart enough to deal with a "hot swap". Sometimes a sleep, or shutdown isn't a bad idea even tho we "shouldn't have to".

We all know this stuff is all "supposed" to work. But a little extra and analysis care can save you a few hours of scratching your head or even worse, hours of a repair techs time and your money.

And I have had a multitude of probs with video out ports on iBooks acting oddly, and they have had a recall out now for some of these issues. see:

http://www.apple.com/support/ibook/faq/

My wife makes me put $1.00 in a jar everytime I say "it should work".

Just my 2 cents,

Harry

OOoooo.. I hope my wife never thinks of that.

I've experienced some "panics" when feeling around with the plug and it starts to go into the wrong place.

"It should work." Hey, isn't that one of those lines that are part of a Microsoft joke...?

The devices on the USB chain don't have drivers other than what's built in, so I haven't looked at that. It appears that unplugging the external monitor is what's killing the machine. Well, sort of. It seems like it's still partially alive. I unplug the external monitor, both screens go black, but the machine is apparently running. Plug the external back in, and I can mouse around over there, but since the main screen is still black I can't do anything. My only option is to turn it off hard by holding down the power switch.

No, I don't have any special video drivers, hacks, etc.

Yup. I called support for one of my most-hated junk brands (Belkin) regarding a router. He asks what OS I'm using, and I say that right now I'm on a Mac, but... He cuts me off before I can say I've tried it from various Windows machines, to tell me that they can't support Mac, it must be the problem. The issue is TCP/IP routing to a VPN server, which is the same from Mac/Win/Unix/whatever. Idiots.

Hey,

Might try a Powerbook screen reset, (<cmd>-R at startup) but I get the feeling that you don't want (or need) a restart.

Good quickie on startup ( and other) key shortcuts is:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75459

Also that is sort of sounding like the issue they are issuing new motherboards for.. Might want to persue it.

My personal iBook did that same sort of thing with a "TV" style monitor hooked up to that oddball 1/8" jack. They did the motherboard for me on it, even though it wasn't exactly the problem described.

I personally think it's flaky solder on the connectors. But I wouldn't know, because opening the iBook might have voided it's recall..... ;)

Harry

Didn't think much about the recall since the machine is so new (two weeks), but I guess I should check it out.

Yeah, avoiding a restart would be good. It has resulted in data loss. Now I just plan for the crash by closing all apps, which is hardly the ideal solution for a notebook that gets moved about regularly.

I'll peruse the hotkeys link and see if I can figure out how to make the screen turn back on or at least gracefully shut down the machine.

Your point 6) is what kills the Mac for me. I bought a 12" PB as soon as the 1.33GHz models came out as my first ever Mac, and it's the worst $1600+tax I ever wasted.

Sure the Mac is pretty, and it makes a great internet terminal, but it is totally useless for what I consider the realities of computing.

For example, there was my recent post here about the KVM that won't work with the Mac because it needs the user to press scroll-lock twice to switch the active computer. I got to dig deep in to resource editors and data/resource forks thanks to apple, and it's horribly designed, everything about it carefully set up to make it a pain in the ass to do anything. There's a lot of cool stuff in those resources, but it's such a pain to get at that it's just not worth doing, so most people don't.

I put a CD-R in the drive, the mac said it didn't recognize it. I quick click on okay, and I'm stuck...no icon to drag to the trash to eject it, the eject option in the menu greyed out, and even logging out and back in didn't help. After about an hour I found the eject option in iTunes did work. That is just so much simpler and easier to use than putting a lousy eject button on the drive, isn't it?

What's kind of interesting is that help requests like the KVM don't get much in the way of replies in this kind of forum. I've seen things like press esc-s (but with no explaination of what it does, and it does nothingon my machine), or ctrl-F14 (my PB keyboard doesn't have an F14, should I buy a $70 keyboard from apple just to find out it also does nothing? -- there's also no explaination of just how that should help).

It seems like even die-hard Mac experts don't know much beyond the basics, because the Mac has nothing beyond basics in any practical way.

John; here's a thought, based on the result of a 15 second Google search:

Try a different vendor for your KVM switch. It looks like there's a few to choose from. :rolleyes:


edit- I've seen my share of hardware that XP breaks as well, usually because of USB driver issues, or sometimes the lack of a digital signature on the driver. There is no such thing as 100% hardware compatibility, and USB devices are particularly touchy.

Wow... now that is the way to spin something. I read that thread and got the idea that it didn't work because the product wasn't designed to support Macs.

The physical eject button works for me if my systems don't recognize a CD. If fact I had a client's system not recognize one of my CDs today... pressed the eject button and out it popped.

You were asking for help with a product that doesn't support Macs... what type of replies did you want? Even Mac users of average skill sets know to make sure something works with their system before putting money down.

You made a rookie mistake, did you really want everyone jumping in pointing it out. I mean basically you did the hardware equivalent of buying a Windows program and asking why it doesn't run on your Mac.

The KVM is just a switch, all it has to do is intercept certain keystrokes and change which computer is selected. How can this *not* be Mac compatible unless the Mac is doing something unexpected?

So where exactly is the physical CD eject button on the current model of 12" powerbooks?

To what extent are you supposed to go to make sure it is Mac compatible? It says "supports all computers" on the package. They even make a PS/2 version that specifically mentions it works with Macs if you use a PS/2 -> USB adapter, and the PS/2 model also uses the scroll lock to swap.

So obviously you can't trust the packaging...do you spend hours searching websites, maybe even asking on forums like this? All that extra effort does contribute to the Mac being harder to use because of the extra work in researching. I know Mac hardware is more expensive, and I'm not complaining about that, but I notice the cheapest KVM in the link Craig provided is $90 + cables, and the one I got was $37 including cables. It's the same basic switch, why are you willing to pay more than 3 times the price?

Shortly after I bought the notebook, I also wanted to get a video input device for my notebook to use the LCD screen as a TV and use the whole system as a PVR. I went to the Mac store, and they suggested a $300 "PVR" unit, even though it uses the notebooks HD and CPU for storage and video processing. So what exactly am I getting for $300. When I commented on that, he suggested a $800 digital video camera with a passthrough. There are dozens of PC-only composite->USB adapters in the $50-100 price range. Why is it so much more for exactly the same device with Mac drivers?

-----

It's amusing that you didn't comment at all on my main reason for my post. Which is Apple deliberatly makes it a pain in the ass to do anything non-trivial with a Mac. Can I take that to mean you do agree with that?

Buy one that is Mac-compatible, or simply uses a button on the device. Also do note that some non-Mac computers have problems with some KVM devices too. I've got a Belkin (really, I need to remember not to buy anything from that junk brand) which simply won't work with Tyan Transport servers. Who should I blame for that one?

Um...you do realize that on a Wintel machine the eject button on the drive is still just a REQUEST to open, just like the one on an Apple...? The OS or an app can still refuse it. One thing the Mac does lack is the manual forced eject hole where you can stick in a paperclip (they used to have that). I'm guessing that's because Apple does go on the incorrect assumption that their OS is perfect, so you would never need to do something so crude.

I'm not going to argue that point, other than to note that you don't even know the basics: Don't buy incompatible hardware.

No you can't, and yes, that's been my solution, to ask. It's a pain, I agree. Can you blame Apple? They didn't make it. Also you have to learn to read between the lines, unfortunately, because "works with any computer" is often used by Windows-centric people who don't know anything else exists.

The Mac takes a lot more effort to use. Mac users will claim the opposite, and that may be true for very basic out-of-the-box users. When you try to get advanced, and do a lot of things with a lot of software and hardware, it gets complicated.

I've recently switched, and you can see some of my posts here where I express frustration. I tried not to rant though, and stay on point. All computers are a compromise. I don't think a perfect one exists at any price. I mean, a Cray isn't real user-friendly, and the frindliest computer I've used, an Amiga, isn't very useful any more. It's all compromises, and if you didn't find the compromises acceptable on the Mac side, that's why there are choices out there.

Since the thread doesn't seem to contain much in the way of Mac OS X experience content any more, it's going to the Coat Room now.

By the way, the method to eject a stuck removable disc (or disk) on a Macintosh is to reboot and hold down the mouse button (that would be the left mouse button, for those who have more than one ;) ).

Okay... :rolleyes:

Lift up your right hand, extend the index finger on that hand, move it to the upper most right corner of the keyboard... see the button there in the corner... press the button.

I haven't seen a new PowerBook in awhile, but I'm pretty sure Apple is still putting a sticker on new systems to let people know that that button is there.

You can take it any way you want, but I would point out that your record on making assumptions hasn't been all that great so far. You might want to learn from that experience.

Just a thought. ;)




I think everyone has gotten burned by Belkin at one time or another. It is to the point that I cringe every time I see a client with any of their products. They just don't have a good track record.

I have switched from windows to mac. Finally!
 

Most people switch from windows to mac at home. I challenge everyone with a mac to switch from windows to mac at work!!!.

I have always used my G4 powerbook at home and I never used it to work. For the 1st time, I am exclusively using my mac at work on a windows network systems. After about 1 week, everything is working ok. I am using my DVI connector to plug into the large display that I have at work. While I am using the large CRT display, the lid on my powerbook is closed; I guess that running it this way is ok. The company that I work at has wireless service that I also use to connect to the network. In addition, I setup VPN so that I can login remotely. I am using a standard dell keyboard and its not that bad. The windows key on the dell is similar to the command key on an apple keyboard. I am also using my Kensington wireless mouse. My boss and I have ichat set up to communicate with one another while we are in the plant since he uses a powerbook too. All in all, this is a very positive experience.

The only thing that I don't like, but I can live with, is that I am force to use Entourage since outlook is the default here on the windows machine. I am not able to receive invites from people in outlook using ical. I can import events into ical, but the notes will not transfer. Entourage will not use my address book. How do I get entourage to use my address book? I think in the end, I think that I can use to Entourage.

Other than that, I am glad that I made the switch. What took me so long? I challenge every one who has a mac to go to work and ask their boss if they can work on their macs to be more productive. This is another way to get corporations to see the power and efficiency of a macintosh.

thx
RLC

I am quite offended by this.

John, you can always sell the machine
 

John Ashby, if you want to get rid of your powerbook, I will be glad to buy it from you for $500.00 assuming that it is still in a good shape. That way you only lose $1100.00 but gain your peace of mind back.

If you don't want to sell it for $500.00, you can always put it on ebay and see what you can get for it.

If it is still in the trial out period, you can take it back and get your money back minus the restocking fee.

If you are this dissatified with your mac, then you are probably better off in the windows worlds. Macs are not for everyone.


thx
RLC

This is completely untrue.
Many things are different on Macs but usually for a good reason - e.g. to provide a better user experience for the majority of users. Apple is not deliberately making it harder to do whatever it was that you were referring to as "non-trivial".

I have no idea what the problem was with your KVM switch. But such things are used by an incredibly small percentage of users and so Apple may have decided (for example) to change the behaviour of the CapsLock key so that it improved its main function (shift lock) at the expense of incompatibility with some brands of KVM switch.
And the reason why some other brands of KVM switches are much more than the $37 you paid is perhaps that those other vendors put more R&D effort into perfecting their switch and making it compatible with more keyboards.

It just warms my cockles when a Windows user tries switching to the Mac platform and immediately start posting to all the Mac forums, "Why can't I do everything I did in Windows on a Mac in exactly the same fashion I did it in Windows?"

My answer? Because you're not using Windows! I've never expected Windows to do everything I can do on the Mac, and I've never been surprised.

Complaints about Apple's Resource Fork system is just silly. PC's had no capabilities even approaching the resource fork until Win98 pretty much copied it with the DLL files. Nowadays, Macs hardly even use them anymore, but instead use Resources for the program within the package... Hmmm... Just like Unix! PC users, I guess expect the "simplicity" of the Registry...

Any KVM maker that depends on a keyboard light signal that has never been used, is just asking for trouble. That Scroll Lock light, while it had a use on IBM Terminals, never was really implemented on a PC in DOS or Windows. Macs just got rid of it. Why would anyone expect it to be there? It's just stupid for a USB KVM to expect that specific signal to do it's switching, except that it would be an easy solution to a lazy engineer.

Wow. :eek:

I find the UNIX underlying MacOSX to be a very advanced piece of software:
:)- in terms of its stability (win XP is very nice for this too..)
:)- security (win XP is a joke in this category)
:)- easy to configure for beginners (well laid out system preferences and secure out-of-the-box)
:)- powerful advanced configurations (just edit a simple text file to configure windows file sharing, apache web server, printer sharing etc... even the 'client' version of OSX can be run 24/7 as a very powerful file/network/printer server)
:)- it is open-source, so that lots of geeks (;)) around the world are actually contributing to it by testing and re-writing it. this gives a high rate of consumer confidence.

Ive been using OSX since 10.1, and have really enjoyed learning UNIX.

Alternative to KVM hardware switch....?
 

Or how about, dont use one at all?

By using VNC, you can do this with software. Install "OSXVNC" on the machine that you want to control (or a VNC server for linux / windows) and then run "OSx2X" on the mac with the keyboard and mouse.

As long as your machines are networked (B-wireless connection is fine) then you can control up to 4 other machines using the mouse and keyboard connected to your mac running osx2x.

Its a nice way to work... and no hardware required.

Check out the osx2x web site osx2x website for the download, and see their online help for a description on how to get it working.

I'm very sorry if you didn't get the answer you expected to your post, but please consider that we are all volunteers with limited time, day jobs, etc. The people that I see coming again and again to help answer questions in the forums put in their own time and effort and do it completely out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm very grateful to them and amazed with the depth and quality of their answers. I've learned an enormous amount from them.

.

Why do you think I got my PowerBook? I'm an IP network (Cisco) and Windows server guy. I now use only my PowerBook to do my job. Of course, I don't have a boss to answer to really (not in detail anyway, as long as things work, I'm left alone). Nobody has particularly noticed that I'm using a Mac. I thought for sure whipping out a huge notebook with a big lighted Apple on the back of the screen would raise eyebrows at a meeting, but nobody has taken note. Of course, this means that nobody has had issues with the documents and mail/task/calendar items we all share. In other words, I co-exist seemlessly.

I'm planning to surreptitiously slip in a few old iMacs and see what happens when I put them on people's desks. I'll start with the least computer-savvy who probably won't even notice it's that different.

I gotta award you a few cajone points here, CAlvarez. I worked with a guy about a year ago at a financial company who was supposed to be the "Cisco Expert" on networking, and he's been a huge problem with the company's IT infastructure from the day I got there until the day I quit. Why? Because he simply would NOT look into anything he wasn't familiar with. Know what he said to me when I brought my snazzy powerbook to work? "You can't get company email with that, it doesn't have outlook. How do you call a machine with no PS2 ports or Serial ports full featured?" and other obviously uninformed garbage. The guy insisted on running the oldest, strangest VPN software I've ever seen, and insisted on the most senseless ideas I've ever heard (We don't need another Active Directory server, we'll just use the VPN tunnel to the other office and use theirs... mind you, both offices had nothing faster than a T1 for about 75 employees each).

Cheers to you for living on the edge, and for having the guts to try something different that might work out better. That is, after all, the only way to know!

I've had to deal with a few of those, one on a current project. "We don't need an expensive Cisco router, I bought a used computer for $60 and we'll just run free firewall software on it...Cisco commands are too hard to learn..."

Of course, I'm getting a little ribbing from a few people now since my PB now needs to have the OS reinstalled and I've only had it for a few weeks...

Yep... then a part craps out in the cheapo PC, the whole company network goes down, and your firewall is a pants-down sort of operation... wow, that was worth not having to learn anything... or not.

Just make sure they're around to see what reinstalling the OS is like with OSX, it'll be sure to make their jaws drop :). What, full resolution and driver support for even bluetooth input devices when running the OS installer? You betcha.

Anyways, enjoy, and don't let it get you down that it'll take you a few tries to get as comfortable and functional on your new powerbook as you were on your PC... once you figure out "how you like it" you'll be the one laughing.

It was a no-brainer to get the owner to figure out the difference between a cobbled-up firewall and a purpose-built firewall. It was then that she layed down the law and said I have the final authority on EVERYTHING. Makes it easy. Too many chiefs makes for a pain in the butt.

It's fun living in a household with a devout Mac-hater, and switching completely to Mac OS. The guys at the Apple store already know us, and affectionately call her my "sarcastic sidekick." She was impressed with the ease and cleanliness of the OS reinstall, though it should be noted that on GOOD hardware, the same is usually true with Windows XP. Apple has the advantage because they control the hardware, but if you buy only what is on the MS compatibility list (huge), then you typically have the same easy experience.

The UI is what I really like. She now has loaded skins on XP to mimic the OS X UI, and it works very well. But while it looks like OS X, the functionality isn't as nice. It should be possible to remap keys and such to nearly function like OS X, but that's a lot of trouble to avoid actually buying a Mac.