Using two routers on one network
 

We have a small office network, and are using a VPN firewall/router as our main network router. Additionally, we have a small wireless router that we want to plug in and use as a wireless access point for our laptops.

The main router is connected to a network switch, and then approximately 10-12 Macs are connected via ethernet. These Macs all have perfect network and Internet access.

The secondary/wireless router is connected to the switch, and then a few Powerbooks are connected via Airport Xtreme cards. Unfortunately, while I can get to the wireless router from any laptop, no laptop can get out to the Internet.

I've attached a PDF of an OmniGraffle diagram of our setup... I'd appreciate any help in getting the wireless Macs out on the 'net.

will wireless routers act as access points if DHCP is turned off?

ok, i had to do this at my bosses house. he had a cable/dsl router and a wireless one as well.what i did was set the wireless router up as a static ip address of 192.168.1.2 and made its default gateway be 192.168.1.1 which is the other router. just set up wep and you should be fine. oh and turn off dhcp on the wireless router and let the wired router be the default dhcp server. otherwise you will get conflicts.

These specs are in the PDF, but here they are in more detail.


MAIN ROUTER:
static IP address aa.bbb.ccc.140
ISP gateway address aa.bbb.ccc.254
internal/NAT router address 192.168.0.1
IP subnet mask 255.255.255.0
DHCP on
RIP 2B, Both directions
DNS servers 206.13.28.12 and 206.13.31.12
reserved 192.168.0.2 for wireless router below

ETHERNET MACS -- plugged into network switch:
IP addresses 192.168.0.3 – 192.168.0.13
router address 192.168.0.1 (main router)
IP subnet mask 255.255.255.0
DNS servers 206.13.28.12 and 206.13.31.12

WIRELESS ROUTER -- plugged into network switch:
static IP address 192.168.0.2 (reserved address on main router)
internal/NAT router address 192.168.0.50
IP subnet mask 255.255.255.0
DHCP off
RIP 2B, Both directions
DNS servers 206.13.28.12 and 206.13.31.12

WIRELESS POWERBOOKS:
IP addresses 192.168.0.51 - 192.168.0.55
router address 192.168.0.1 (main router)
[have also tried 192.168.0.50 (wireless router)]
IP subnet mask 255.255.255.0
DNS servers 206.13.28.12 and 206.13.31.12

GS

static IP address 192.168.0.2 (reserved address on main router)
internal/NAT router address 192.168.0.50 <== should be 192.168.0.2
IP subnet mask 255.255.255.0
DHCP off
RIP 2B, Both directions
DNS servers 206.13.28.12 and 206.13.31.12

Then make sure you have it set up for the default gateway to be 192.168.0.1 and it should work properly.

I'll try that...

So, by making the wireless router's own NAT address the same as its external IP address, it looks like this effectively makes the router "bridge" to the main router... is that right?

Unfortunately, using these settings I can no longer reach the wireless router from the PowerBook... when I enter 192.168.0.2, the browser hangs and never reaches a target. Seems that there's now a conflict because the wireless router's internal and external IP addresses are both 192.168.0.2...

Duh... stupid mistake... I forgot to change one number...

OK, I can reach the wireless router from the PowerBook using Safari, so we're good there. However, I can't access the Internet. Any URL that I type in simply spins and then I get, "Safari can't open the page "www.url.com" because it can't find the server "url.com".

I also can't reach the main router from the PowerBook. When I enter 192.168.0.1, I get the same result, with error "Safari could not open the page http://192.168.0.1/" after trying for 60 seconds".

Additionally, if I use DHCP on the PowerBook, it self-assigns a number rather than getting a dynamic number from the main router (which has DHCP enabled). I have to enter a manual number, such as 192.168.0.50, to even reach the wireless router.

This would seem to indicate a problem in the setup that's preventing the two routers from communicating properly?? On second thought, that's not the case because I can get the two routers to see each other (wireless router can pull a DHCP IP address from main router and be displayed in the attached devices listing on the main router).

Any other ideas?

GS

i should have asked this earlier but is the wireless router plugged into the uplink or just regular port of the wired router? i believe i just did a straight plug from port - port from each router not using the uplink. which may be why you aren't getting a dhcp connection

The wired router has an uplink port which is plugged into a DSL modem. It has a number of downlink/regular ports, one of which is plugged into a 16-port network switch. All of the ethernet Macs are plugged into the network switch, and they work fine.

The wireless router is also plugged into the network switch, using its own uplink port (the router's, that is). The PowerBooks are wirelessly connected to the wireless router, and make a solid connection. The wireless router also makes a solid connection with the wired router (can obtain a DHCP dynamic IP from wired router, and shows up in the wired router's "attached devices" page).

The problem comes when trying to get to the wired router from a PowerBook, or out to the Internet. I'm stuck...

Thanks!
GS

Well, why should the wireless router route anything from 192.168.0.52 say to anywhere 'above' it? You have told both of your networks that they are network 192.168.0.0 So your wireless router should not route packets from the wireless side to the wire side. Therefore you are not getting to your DNS server when trying to do lookups.

Basically your network is misconfigured.

You need to either change your netmasks all around, so that 192.168.0.1 to 192.168.0.63 is on your main lan and 192.168.0.64-192.168.0.127 is on your wireless lan.

OR (much easier) switch your wireless lan to be 192.168.1.0-255

I think that there are 2 ways that this can be done. The first will put all of your wireless traffic on a separate network from your wired network and will break some things like rendezvous shared printers & iTunes sharing, but it should be easy. The second may not be supported by your wireless router (What kind is it?).

To just get it to work, you could probably
1) Reset the router to default specs.
2) Set WAN IP to DHCP or 192.168.0.2
3) Set LAN IP to something like 192.168.1.1 (different than the WAN network).
4) Plug in cable running from switch to the WAN port of the wireless router (make sure the link light comes on).

If the wireless router is setup the way most are, your router will hand out DCHP addresses on the WLAN/LAN using addresses in the range 192.168.1.2-254. You should still be able to connect to computers on the 192.168.0.0 network, but they will not be able to initiate a connection to any computers in the 192.168.1.0 network. You can verify this using ping from the network utility or terminal command line.

The other method is to "bridge" the networks together. This would be preferable although I have used some cheap wireless routers that have issues with this setup. Since most Wireless routers have a multiple port switch also, I will assume that this is true.

1) On the wireless router, turn off DHCP.
2) Set the WAN IP to anything...192.168.100.1 should work fine.
3) Set the LAN IP to 192.168.0.2
4) Plug in a cable from a LAN port to your Network Switch. You may have to use a crossover cable or uplink port on one of the switches. Just verify that you have link lights.

You should now be able to connect to the wireless router get a DHCP lease assigned from the main router's DHCP server. Verify your IP address and make sure you do and if so, everything should work. You should still be able to use printer/i
Tunes/iPhoto sharing using this method as all of the computers will be on the same network.

Just checking gsparks, but you DID plug the cable from the switch to the WAN port on the wireless router right?

Assuming you want everything on one network (regardless of how people connect to it), go back to this setup.

Router 1
IP Address: 192.168.0.1
netmask 255.255.255.0
DHCP on

Router 2
IP Address: 192.168.0.2
netmask: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.0.1
DHCP off

Because of you are manually assigning the second router, it is possible you may have to manually enter the DNS numbers that are being given to the first router automatically, and type them in to the setup of the second router. Check what they are in the Status page of Router #1.

Yes, absolutely... see previous post.


I've done exactly this, with no success, including manually populating the DNS servers in the wireless router as well as in the PowerBooks.

I'll be in the office later today to try some of the above suggestions, and report back after that.

Thx!

I've done this a couple times, and I've found it works if you do not use the WAN port on the wireless router. Rather, connect the wireless router to the wired network using one of the LAN ports on the wireless router. Then give your wireless router an LAN IP address on your wired network. That way, the wireless router will consider 192.168.0.X packets to be "local" and not try to send them through its WAN port. I've set it up a couple times this way and it works great.

Let me know if any of that isn't clear.

Problem Solved!!!
 

Thanks for all the great responses... here's the trick:

Wireless router has external IP address and internal IP address of
192.168.0.2. DHCP server is off. Subnet mask is 255.255.255.0.
Default gateway is 192.168.0.1 (wired router).

As was mentioned above a couple of times –– plug the wireless
router into the switch using one of the regular LAN ports, NOT
(repeat NOT NOT NOT) the WAN/uplink port.

All is now right with the world. The only thing that won't work
is the PowerBooks won't pull a DHCP address from the main
wired router. But, I've given them manual IP addresses, and
everything works correctly, including Internet, Rendezvous,
email, printing to network/shared printers, etc.

GS

So, in other words, you have a wireless hub, not a router.

In essence, that's what's been created... took the routing right out of that sucker...

Avoid that WAN/UPLINK port!
 

I agree with the solution.

Many long minutes (OK, a few short hours) of trial and error led me to the same place. One router works as a router (192.168.3.1, let's say) and the WiFi one works as a switch or hub (192.168.4.1, let's say).

With my LinkSys Wireless Router / WiFi Access Point BEFSR41 the only time I use the WAN/UPLINK port is for administrative access to it (changing the WEP key, &c.).

On this network, I have a print server, a VOIP interface, a Windows machine, several Macs, a Snap! server, available Ethernet ports all over the place for visitors, and a Palm Tungsten C. Each machine can see all the others (except the handheld, which can WiFi HotSync to the Windows machine, but not to any of the Macs - but that's another thread).

Houston, we have a problem...

OK, the network's running great, the wireless PBs are connected via laptop and can iChat around the office as well as get out on the 'net.

Except – the wireless PBs can't print to any of the shared USB laserprinters that are connected to the wired eMacs. None of them show up in the Printer Setup tool when "rendezvous" printing is selected.

Is there a way around this? Or are we hosed on this functionality?

GS

Printer sharing? Add printer?
 

This is doable, because I've done it (with a similar or identical network setup), and I'm no network ace.

I'm at work now, so I can't check the details, but make sure the eMac to which the printer is connected has printer sharing turned on. Then, from the wireless PowerBook, try the Add Printer function, accessible from the Printer Setup Utility.

I think there's a discussion in David Pogue's book, not with me now.

I hope this helps.

Problem solved... turns out I forgot to reset the PBs to manual IP rather than DHCP and this one particular system couldn't get out or do anything until I fixed that setting.

So, while we're at it... I need suggestions for next steps to determine why the wireless PBs can't pull a DHCP IP address from the main router, despite that everything else appears to be functioning normally.

Thx!
GS

Netmasks. It's all about the netmasks people.
 

Please don't turn your router into a hub.

Router 1 is hooked up to internet. I give it address 192.168.0.1
Its network address is 192.168.0.0, broadcast address is 192.168.0.127
Netmask: 255.255.255.128. It provides DHCP addresses in range
192.168.0.2 - 192.168.0.126.

Cable linking router 1 to router 2 is in normal port in router 1,
uplink port in router 2.

Router 2 is hooked up to router 1. I give it address 192.168.0.129
Its network address is 192.168.0.128, broadcast address is 192.168.0.255
Netmask: 255.255.255.128. It provides DHCP addresses in range
192.168.0.130 - 192.168.0.254.

Machines plugged into both machines can see the internet.

Any questions?

I have done this many times for many clients using consumer routers and third party firmware. For the most part everything has been already stated pretty clearly. I will post my common configuration that I use.

Primary Router: 192.168.1.1
DHCP server - enabled ip range 192.160.1.100 ~ 200 sub. 255.255.255.0
NAT - Enabled
SPI Firewall - enabled
SSID - name of wifi network
mode - OSPF
gateway = resolve from DHCP
DNS = resolve from DHCP
Wifi encryption = WPA2

Secondary: 192.168.1.2
DHCP - disabled
NAT - Disabled
SPI firewall - disabled
SSID - same as network
Mode - OSPF
gateway - 192.168.1.1
DNS - 192.168.1.1
wifi encryption = wpa2
*bump wifi broadcast channel up 2 channels from primary

Teritory router: 192.168.1.3
DHCP - disabled
NAT - Disabled
SPI firewall - disabled
SSID - same as network
Mode - OSPF
gateway - 192.168.1.1
DNS - 192.168.1.1
wifi encryption = wpa2
*bump wifi broadcast channel up 2 channels from secondary

I have done this set up for a few clients that have large offices and need the wifi repeated. They already had cabling ran so it was easy to just pop stuff in and go. I set it up over a year ago, and have never had a call to come back and fix it yet. I have gotten calls from them to fix other things, but never the network I set up.

Just one: Why did you bring up a three year old thread? Presumably the people who had the question either solved it or found another device...

oops i didn't even realize how old this thread was....

Thanks
 

Hey even though it's old. I found this useful!

Thanks,
Mike