Liquid-cooled G5s
 

I hope it doesn't leak ;)

Liquid-Cooled G5 Design

best,
darin

Ooooooooo.. they failed to break the 3GHz limit in a year like Stevie promised. Tsk, tsk. Dual 2.5GHz though.

Yeah, I suspect the 3 gigs will be more around the time that Tiger comes out.

Still, the liquid cooling system is probably the break needed for the next gen iMac and PowerBook designs, which may be of greater significance than the 500 mHz. :D

Well spoken C.R.A.! Though I'm really curious if they could actually squeeze one into a laptop. With the XServer get them as well?

I think the answers about miniaturization may come with the next iMac revision. We'll see.

I just bought a dual 2GHz G5 last Saturday at the Apple Store in my area. I know I have 10 days in which I can get a refund on the price drop, but I'm wondering if I should consider trading up to this new 2.5GHz G5?

That liquid cooling scares me a bit. Does anyone have any idea how reliable it might be?

You may have to wait a while to actually receive a liquid cooled G5. I don't know the exact shipping date that Apple has announced, but you know how those dates get pushed back. Do you want to give up your new G5 and not have a replacement until Fall?

Be on the lookout for the "Liquid Cooled Yellow". Grey Goose, martini shaker, and olives included! Glasses sold separately.

Waiting until Fall wouldn't be an issue because I would just use my dual 1GHz/1.5GB RAM G4. It's not like I'd be hurting while waiting (although my daughter who inherited my old G4 in replace of my very old Rev 1 beige G3 might feel some pain ;) ). I wasn't even in the market for a new computer when my husband insisted I get a G5 so we could give my daughter the G4 (she had started taking over her father's computer -- his solution was to give me a G5, let daughter use the G4 and he got his computer back :D ). Knowing that the more power you get in the beginning, the longer the overall life of the computer before it becomes woefully slow and, therefore, obsolete, I opted to buy the very best Apple offered: The dual 2GHz G5. As a side benefit, I got to be the proud owner of the fastest computer on the planet... for a whopping 2 days!

I would jump at a dual 2.5GHz G5, even if it meant waiting a few months, if it was using tried and true technology. But liquid cooled? That's a first! I wouldn't want to be one of the guinea pigs who suffer the growing pains of first generation technology. Will the cooling work? How prone is it to failure? How difficult/expensive/available would be any need repairs? Could I repair it myself? What is the life of such a cooling system -- 1 year, 3 years, 10 years?

Has anyone heard anything regarding the reliability of a liquid cooling system? I know you guys follow a lot of inside info and know about this stuff long before it hits the market. Or is this the first everyone's hearing about a liquid cooled computer?

I suspect any repairs would be covered by your warranty.

There are quite a few after-market liquid cooling systems for PCs ... and some of the smaller "boutique" PC makers offer them as BTO options on their super high end boxes. But as far as I know, this is the first time it's been offered by one of the major manufacturers.

"My computer won't work."
'What's wrong, did it crash?'
"No, I think it actually flooded!"

:)

-rob.

For 1 year only. I'm thinking of long term reliability. My G3 is 6+ years old and only now being retired.

Anyone have any ideas of the concept of a liquid cooled computer is basically solid or somewhat risky?

Looking at the admittedly simplistic diagrams, on the link posted earlier, one gets the feeling that the enclosure is going to be the same size as old G5s. Since ultimately the computer still has to dump more heat than ever before into the air flowing through the fans, the only way that can happen is if the airflow is increased (for the same size enclosure.) Hard to believe that's going to be less noisy than a G4 - and lets face it some of them are very noisy!

As for reliability well you'll need to run fans faster (more wear) or have more of them (more to go wrong.) And you've got pumps for the coolant too (extra things to go wrong.) If I remember rightly Krays were water-cooled right back in the '80s, and they had problems with keeping pumps going and going.

Then there's coolant - I would imagine they'd use some kind of non-conducting fluid but not pressurised - so that's probably a light oil. So probably no leaks. That could be quite reliable. There might be problems if Apple goes for the full "air-con" approach because that will require pressurised coolant which will leak more easily.

In general I think that bringing in cooling means that you've run into some kind of wall with regards to low heat chip production. Hopefully they'll get around it somehow. All in all, it's hard to believe that we are looking at the future. I wonder if this more "stopgap" until something else better comes along. They'll need to find something better if they are to meet demand for portable processing power which is where it's at. That is once they've sorted the batteries out - but that's another story.

Comparitively, G4s and G5s run much cooler than your Intel Prescotts and AMD Bartons, however, like any sort of overclocking, increasing FSB or voltage will increase heat for all processors.

I've built a machine that has a water cooling unit. It's rather simple to setup, the one I built had a 5.25" bay drive for temp readings and a fan speed knob. It's refridgerated inside the 5.25" bay, transfers distilled water to the processor heatsink, which then flows to an auxilliary cooler (a large heatsink with fan mount attached to case), which then travels to the video card to cool its chipset, and then back to the 5.25" bay for refridgeration.

As long as you get around 90% of the air bubbles out of the lines and make sure it is all sealed, it's a very stable, quiet way to cool and overclock. Though I would trust non-conductive oils over water in case of leakage...

Apple is listing the liquid cooling system as being enclosed with no maintenance needed. I would assume (possibly incorrectly) that this thing is filled and sealed during manufacturing. If it's going to break, it should be fairly quickly in the machine's life.

Also, Apple has put a gel inside some of the heat pipes in powerbooks and towers for a while now (this according to some of the Apple people I've talked to), just none with a pump until now.

I will never allow a Mac to be purchased without AppleCare. So I was thinking more like 3 years.

How did you move it around, impellor?

I'm very much the opposite. When I started adding up the expense of extended warranties on computers, monitors, TVs, washers/driers, lawn mowers, sewing machines, yadda, yadda, and then compared that total expense with the typical expense of repairs for the entire group, I found I came ahead by not buying extended warranties and paying for the few repairs that were needed. It seems to me that most appliances break down either the first year (which is covered by the normal warranties) or they break down long after the extended warranties have already expired. I have also found with most extended warranties, there are so many rules and fine print, they limit your choices of what to do when a repair is needed. So I have chosen to "self insure" in a sense for the last 15 years, and I have not regretted it yet.

When it comes to Macintosh computers, as my signature says, I'm now using my 6th Mac, and to date, I have never had the need to take any of my Macs into the shop for repair (knock on wood!). In fact, of the 14 computers I have owned in the last 15+ years (Mac, DOS, OS/2, and Wintel), I have only had 1 computer break down (a "backplane board" failed on my old 286 from years ago). This excludes minor repairs, such as old floppy drives that finally bit the dust after many years of use.

Having said that, I also don't go looking for trouble which is why I'm not very quick to purchase any first (or v1.0) of anything. So I think I'm going to pass on the new liquid cooled Macs for now. Once they've been around for a few years and I can see how well they perform, I will reconsider.

The work load on a cooling system can certainly be reduced by putting refridgeration and large radiators, but it's hard to do all that and squeeze into an existing enclosure with all the functionality of the original without compromising somewhere.

So out of interest how do you get rid of the heat from the drive bay? Are you really refridgerating? Or exchanging heat with a raw water supply? Which is one way of reducing the size of any radiator - but requires you live in a country with large amounts of water, like mine :) Been raining all morning.

I've looked on the Apple shop here, and given the current dollar/pound rate, there see to be very attractive deal on G5s, so who knows ... I might just buy one. Would probably stay clear of liquid cooling ones though. I'll watch the first adopters on this one.

For the future, I think it's going to be 3D microprocessors such as these proposed here or similar. Same science, better engineering:-

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-276609.html
http://www.sigda.org/Archives/Procee...ffiles/4_2.pdf

It's a matter of perspective. Some folks don't want to pay $200 to insure themselves. Some folks don't mind. As a 15 year vet of Mac computer support, I've seen hundreds, and hundreds (and hundreds, and hundreds) of Macs come though my office. I've seen enough things go wrong that I've certainly been glad that my office insists on purchasing the AppleCare warranty. IMO, it's better to pay $200 up front and never need it.

The unit actually had copper coils refridgerating the water, keeping a reservoir at a certain temperature before it was pumped out. Say it keeps the water at 40°F, incoming (warmer, already ran through) water passes into the reservoir to be cooled, and pumps already reservoired water to the stream. It stays in the reservoir until it reaches its set temperature parameter, and pumps more out (this is all in a matter of a few seconds, since it is reletively little water (2-4 cups), it cools rather quickly.

It requires power via the PSU, which needs to be pretty beefy for any type of high level cooling supplies, whether you have 8 fans or liquid nitrogen. :)

Well, I type this from my work laptop (a windows box, sigh).

Last night I was working away when I heard a very loud POP and the circuit breaker tripped. Thought it was my monitor, cause it sounded like a monstor cap blowing.

Alas after I moved my dual 2.5 G5 (liquid cooled) I found a puddle on my desk.:eek:

Took it in to an apple shop today and the PFYs (pimply faced youth) jumped up and ripped it open when I told them what had happened cause they had never had a leaking unit yet. I suppose that it is very rare is good, but why me? :confused:

Anyway, I will report back when it is fixed (oh, about a week if the parts are in Sydney - I am in Brisbane, 1000K away, but a city of about 2 million..... what, no parts here :mad: )

Are you sure all of your hamsters are accounted for? ;)

Just kidding. Wow, that sucks! I'm really sorry to hear.

So I guess it's not a "non-conductive" liquid.

Well, after telling the store that there had been a leak, I called them up two days ago and they said the power supply was shot and they were ordering one in but that they didn't think the cooling had leaked. They asked what colour it was and when I said clear, they said 'no, it is green, so that couldn't have been it'. I told them to look again.

Today they called up and said the power supply was in and they were going to install it. I said what about the cooling? They then made a not too veiled threat that 'if you keep saying there was water around, it might void your warrenty for the power supply repair'. I then told them in no uncertain terms that the only source of water (fluid) was the Mac.

About 2 hours later, I get a call and they say 'oh, the cooling was buggered, and we have to order you a new CPU unit, and by the way, the fluid is VERY toxic and do you feel any timgling where you may have touched it?' !!!

I would bet that they replaced the power supply and proceeded to run HW tests and burnt out the current CPU(s).

Anyone in Brisbane can PM me if they want to avoid this downtown shop.

Needless to say I am going to compose a letter to the management about the service staff.

Grrrr

Maybe it's too late, but here's a quote from the Apple Service Manual for PowerMac G5's:Also, here is the link to the MSDS.

The PFY should stop listening to urban legends. Glycols are rather toxic if swallowed (Ethylene glycol, in your car antifreeze, often kills pets - it tastes sweet. Somebody should put in an additive.) Getting it on your hands won't be a problem, but wash up well just on general principle :D

Surprised it's not an option. Pumped-water cooling, chilled with the building air conditioning system (or running it out the window in the winter in some climates) would be perfect for a server room. Cooler, less lint, and it wouldn't sound like a jet engine repair shop.

Thanks for the info, sounds like it is not too bad a liquid.

Cheers,

The saga continues....

Late last week I got a call and they now said the logic board was fried. Another part order from Sydney, another few days.

Wouldn't it be logical to take an overall look at the problem, since it was a cooling/powersupply problem, test with a spare power supply, see what is dead and then order all parts??? Are they going to replace all electrical parts one by one?

Today they said they were installing the logic board and would run HW test, so it should be ready tomorrow.

Why do I have this sinking feeling that they are going to say "oh, the disk drive is dead, we have to order one from Sydney.

3 bloody weeks so far....

I hope it's still covered by your warranty!

Yep, it is (with applecare as well). So far the bill is $3729.73 AUD (apple gets the bill of course).

But, the power button/USB/Firewire board at the front of the machine was very loose when I got it home, so it is back into the shop for an hour next week some time... :(

It is also a real pain how so many prefs and things screw up when the motherboard gets changed.

Are you sure that at this point in time, appropriate use of a screwdriver, while unduly shortening the drama, would be the better option for your personal sanity ?

And as a public service, make sure they get their license pulled by Apple or at the very least fire the dork who seemingly can't stop breaking machines over there...

Yeah, I may take a look, but it is pretty tight in there, and it is not immediately obvious where the screws are....

I also don't want to strip a screw and screw it completely, and have it be my fault...

Now, if someone out there with experience were to PM me and tell me it is a no brainer, I might be more inclined to give it a go. :)

Doug

Well, here we are nearly a year later, and guess what? Another CPU coolant leak! :mad:

This time I heard a sizzle sound, smelled an acrid smell, and then shut it down before I lost the power supply (and the logic board).


Needless to say I did not take it to the same shop, but to a guy who runs a one man repair outfit that is Apple certified. The Cooling system is done after 3 days, but the modem had also died (unrelated), so that part won't arrive until Monday. Looks like it should only be a week this time.... sigh.

I have never had a G5 leak on me yet. I have had probably 15 to 20 processors go bad in the last two years but never a leak.

I have read all the warnings and passed the safety questions on the apple cert for liquid leaks, but have never seen one.

In my professional opinion though, the G5 is one the poorest designed desktops from a functional repair standard, I have ever seen. We have several G5s that have hardware failure every three months here at work, and the G5 right next to it has ran for 2 years with no problems at all. I think that the G5s that have problems have them consistantly, and the ones that don't never really do. That is just the pattern I see though, so it is just my epxerience.

An advertistement? Are you guys spamming your own forums?

Hey, he's gotta pay for all this AppleCare somehow ;) :

stetner, good to hear you finally seem to have found a trustworthy service guy, at least, no more ping-pong ahead...

I'm on my second new Mac... and I bought AppleCare with both of them. I've more than gotten my money's worth out of the program: I've gone through 3 keyboards and one motherboard (an electrical storm found its way to my ethernet port... now I unplug the network during storms too).

Well, it went in on the Tuesday afternoon and was back on Monday. The only reason it wasn't back on Friday was I also wanted the modem replaced (unrelated failure, just hadn't got around to getting it fixed as I rarely use it) and it took longer for the part to come in.

That is a bit better service! :)

It now has a slightly different cooling unit, maybe I will have more luck with this one....

Happy with this repairer though.... and if anyone in Brisbane wants to know who he is PM me and I will point you his way...