Thanks Chris, I have just begun to look it over. Yes, it looks very good. Thanks for the redirect!

Have read a few more pages. What a great site for seeing the differences!! Very thorough.

Oh, most defintately. Or administrator who must create multiple user defaults or multiple client machines with all the same setting defaults.

My point exactly! The less I have to handhold them, the better. I always tell them, buy a MAC!

See, this is the difference between Apple and M$. M$ will create 12 different OSes to fit the target user, while Apple will create 2. This creates a real challenge for Apple, one for which they have done very well. I think the trick is to have a central preference manager (with an Apple Default setting) that is accessible to all users. Mom and pop will not know it is there, and will not care. I will know it is there, and I will be glad and use it.

Thanks for the provocative post

JayBee,

I can see your thought process on that long post, so I feel I need to clarify my attitude regarding Apple and their GUI.

Yes, I would trust them to be in charge of the GUI, after all, it's their baby. But when they changed the entire way you work going from the OS9 environment to OSX, they made a crucial mistake, that is, making you radically change the way you work. People depend on Macintosh to be consistent and moving cold turkey was very difficult to many businesses. I know, I watched our 40 machine Graphics department deal with the change. Yes, relax and get used to it. But much of that getting-used-to business cost us alot of money in lost productivity.

OK, the dock is a clean utility that just works. Granted. But it should not be an intrical part of the interface or work environment, it should be what it is, a utility, one that can be turned off. Yes, for mom and pop it is a godsend and I always set it up for them to use. For me, its lost real estate, even with auto-hide (it pops its head up when I cursor near it working on something).

Here is where Apple got it very very right... customize menu. This tells me, "User, you know what you need to work effectively." I just want a few things, another may want all of them, another may want none. Everyone is happy because the user dictates the environment.

Here is where Apple has missed it...
Trash Can in the Dock. You cannot undock it, it moves when you try to throw something away. As you start or stop an application, it shifts. This tells me, "User, you have no choice unless you hack it. Get used to it. Buy a utility if you don't like it. Use a key shortcut. Find a way around it."

I hope you can see my point. If I am setting up for grandma to send email to family, I can taylor the OS to be super-simple. If a Switcher comes along and misses a feature from Windows, I would like the Mac OS to say, don't pine, here it is. If I am setting up my Mac as a home Jukebox, I would like the interface to look like black anodized aluminum with bright blue lettering with gray hilight. OSX has the potential to do all these and more.

Part of the reason I love my caller ID!

When I look at it, Microsoft has two OSs too. DOS and NT and in reality, they really only have one - IE.

One thing I notice with the people at work, even after they were upgraded to XP (before being downgraded to 2000 'cause XP Pro for some reason couldn't handle the network strain???) - they chose to move back to the 2K/98 look - so yes that option is something that is lacking... but with all the flavors, 98SE, ME, 2K, XP Home, XP Professional, and now even Malaysian Longhorn when that call comes in to me to fix something (mom, pop, friend) I have to figure out which OS they are using (cause they don't know - it just came with the machine), which commands still work to fix the problem and where things were put again.

XP is a prime example of this. I still walk into the bosses office and can't find half his stuff, menu bars etc, not because he wanted to move them to some obscure place within the app, but because he accidentally clicked something and it went away.

The more people write about things they want - the more people come out of the woodwork and work on something to make it happen --- and it is done without annoying malicious programs added onto it. I usually ask a lot more questions then I give answers to, but even I was happy when I was able to make something to help someone out. This and other places like it are great places to find these things - and get honest reviews of them before you test them out on your machine.

Wow - that was long. Sorry about that.

No apologies necessary, I'm not the emperor in Amadeus saying, "It is a marvelous work, it just had... well, too many notes."
I think I should clarify. Yes, they really have two. But I would call those "underpinnings". Such as the underpinnings of OS7-9 were relatively the same and OSX is UNIX. I was thinking more "topside" such as OSX and OSX Server.

But your point is taken and is right-on the money.

right, after a yummy sip of coffee, he's back for a concise comment about OS design philosophies:

Apple : "what do we need?"
MicroSoft : "what can we add?"

I think this is the fundamental difference. I don't know which is better, but I know which I prefer. I'm a firm believer that the vendor should concentrate on making the OS as stable and usable as possible, and that all forms of customisation should ideally be left to third parties.

This is just my take on it though. I'm not anti choice, but I want to be able to chose the choice, if you know what I mean? ;)

One reflects efficiency while the other leads to bloatware. If Apple adds nothing new to OS10.4 except snappier response and more preferences for the way we work, I would shovel out ANOTHER $130.

I found a very good example of what I am talking about in this MacOSXHints article.

(see bottom of article)

O.K. everything I wanted to say about the original post has pretty much been said, so I see no reason to rehash.

There is one thing though that I don't understand, and (I confess I only 'scanned' through a majority of the posts) I haven't seen covered yet.

What do you mean by "Insecure Fast User Switching"?

Everytime you switch users, you have to enter a Password.... how is this insecure?

No, I use Fast Switching with my family where I do not need passwords. This allows extremely quick switches from user to user. Unfortuately, they did not secure the admin side so that there is a password for fiddling with the system. I am also vulnerable to outside fiddling as well.

Secure Fast User Switching would be (to me) to login with password the first time you switch users or when you log back in from a logout. Any admin routines would require the password. Any access from the outside would require the password. In other words, everything requires the password except for changing from user to user. This, of course, can be turned on or off by the individual user via the user preferences.

See?

I'm not sure I understand your list either, maybe it's because I'm not very familiar with XP (don't use it a whole lot, only to test websites really):

* As far as I know you can create a default folder view, just set it to "All Windows" and that's your new default.

* Trash Can in the Dock: I don't see it as a Mom and Pop issue at all. I agree that you may not like it and would like to change it, but that is more of a personal annoyance. There are several hints with dealing with it however, personally i'd just make a symlink if it bothers you.

* I don't understand why you want more preferences. Can you back up "but limits a users ability to use his machine properly" with some examples? I would argue that it's a bad thing for XP to have that many prefs, they're just confusing and fairly useless; so much so they force you to use condescending Wizards.

* "Up one hierarchal step menu button", not sure what that means. Could you clarify?

I think he wants a button in the Finder's toolbar that takes him not BACK, but UP one directory.

. . . How about a menu button that goes one more and shows you a complete hierarchy? You can click it and snap up to the location you want.

www.mikey-san.net/finder_hierarchy.jpg

Nope :)

I'm not really sure what you're wanting here? So you want a secure system without any passwords? If I understand correctly (and I clearly don't ;) ), you've got a system in which nobody has passwords, but you want some sort of password protection?

My solution would be to create an "Admin" user with a password, and create all other users as non-admin users without passwords. If someone has to authenticate, they can use the commonly known Admin username/password. However, if you're running OS X with un-locked Admin users, you're just asking for trouble if you connect to the net.

What's your IP address anyway? :P

Seriously, though, I don't see how this is really a "fast user switching" issue. Could you clarify, as this sounds interesting.

How did I miss that path addition? You just made my day!

My two cents
 

Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out (I don't have time to read every reply), but there is a way to go up one hierarchal step from the folder you are in. Command-click on the title of the window to get a hierarchal drop-down list. I admit it's obscure and a bit non-intuative to someone who hasn't worked with Macs for a long time. Just wanted to share.

As for your other items, most aren't issues for me personally, but I do agree with your frustration about preference files laying around for apps I tested once and then got rid of. I think preferences, global and personal, should be part of the app's bundle. That way, when you throw it in the trash (yes, on the Dock), it takes all of it's files with it. I realize there's some logistical issues with this idea, but the fact is, humans made these computers, so humans are responsible for these logistical issues. :-)

Re: My two cents
 

Man, I'm just turning into the naysayer of the group ;)

Anyway, I think this would bring up a whole load of bad karma. This doesn't make me or my users responsible for the logistics, it makes my computer and the app's programmers responsible.

For example, what happens if my prefs get corrupted? At the moment, I can just trash or remove my prefs from my Library, and see if that does the trick. If you embed prefs in the app, that becomes dangerous inconsistent.

Not only that, but if my prefs are screwed just now, I don't affect anybody else's ability to use the app. If my wife wants to log in and use Mail, my screwy prefs have nothing to do with it. Works for her, not for me till I fix it.

If my prefs were somehow "global", then boom - my screwed prefs screw ALL USERS over. This is bad, and I like the way Apple are keeping user level stuff like prefs at a user level in the OS.

Oh, and before anyone thinks I'm getting all "OS X is perfect, leave it alone!" here, I've got to say that Mail's new Panther-style method of picking send-from email addresses has to be the worst thing on any system EVER!

:)

Second that, JayBee. When things that should rightfully be global prefs get put into Userspace things like this happen, all too easily.

The converse would be equally confusing.

Re: Re: My two cents
 

I agree. Ooops. I mean I agree with the rest of your post. ':)'

At any rate, the preferences files left behind are usually very small and it does not matter if they are there or not. Many times you can tell what preference file goes with what application by the name of the preference file (usually has a name like the application name or like that of the developer). Just throw them away as you throw away the application.

With folder actions and labels it is now easy to keep track of the preference files of applications which you are testing. Before you install an application, enable folder actions and add the folder action "add - new item alert.scpt" found in "/Library/Scripts/Folder\ Action\ Scripts". Now start the appplication and play with it. When it creates preference files/folders, the folder action will warn you and ask you if you want to see the new files. If you say "Yes" then it will open a Finder window and show them to you, highlighted. While they are still highlighted, assign them a label, say blue. You might leave a file somewhere telling yourself what color each trial application's preference files have been labelled, but that should be no problem if you use one such file for all your trial applications. Anyway, when you throw out the application, you can easily toss its preferences at the same time.

Actually I have to disagree with the preferences issue. Right now I just checked and I have almost 350 items in my Preferences Folder, the folder uses up 50MB.

Although one could script something up to guess if the prefs belong to an application that is installed. I say guess because even though some are terribly intuitive:

Youpi Key.plist
com.apple.finder.plist
or even
Beholder Preferences

Some are less than intuitive, for example I have:
ACE2Cache
User Data... <insert strange string of characters>

However, I'm not sure what the best way of solving the issue would be. I would definitely not change the separation of /Library/Preferences and ~/Library/Preferences.

There used to be Spring Cleaning by Aladdin, they probably still make it. It might solve it by guessing and having a database of known prefs.

v

Edit: WhatSize to the rescue (pick of the week a little while ago). Found an old Opera pref folder (with cache) plus other hogs, now down to a more reasonable 15MB.

Clarification for Everyone Here...
 

Just to avoid alot of individual posts, I want to address some of the individual good points here.

First, JayBee...
Man, I'm just turning into the naysayer of the group
Oh hardly, this is all part of the arguement/adjust/suggestion process. If you think that more preferences are a problem, which they could be, then say on! The corrupted file problem is indeed an issue, and I think that Apple should fix this first. I say FIX it, not LIMIT it as the problem solver. So, speak on, I dig your input. (more on this issue later) (:

vonleigh...
As far as I know you can create a default folder view, just set it to "All Windows" and that's your new default.
This has never EVER worked as you describe. Everything is determined by the notorious .ds_store file. Read this article for way loads of information. As an example, create all your settings in list view. Now make a new folder. Is it in list view? No. If you go to other folders with no .ds_store file, does it display in list view? No. Put in a CD burned from a PC, does it display in list view? No. In XP, what you apply in the global option, is applied everywhere except where you have dictated "This window only".

Trash Can in the Dock
The trash can has become a symbol for the OS dictating how the user should work and not visa verse. You should not have to hack to have the interface work the way you feel it should. Its not the Trash Can, it's what it represents.

I don't understand why you want more preferences
OSX is trying to be simple for the new user, yet detailed for the advanced power user. Preferences allow the power user to shape the OS to fit his/her needs, requirements or ways of working. It also says, "User, you are in control, not the OS." Example, how about a slider bar that sets how fast the interface animations run. Me? I would set it so fast that you barely see them. Others may find the animations useful feedback. I can think of 50 such little helps. They are there if you need them, ignore them if you do not care. I thought of a great example. Everyone is raving about DragThing, and for good reason. You can customize your menus to the wazoo. Is this good or bad? I think it is very good, even though I use, probably 10% of the settings. Color and textures? Nah. Transparency? Yes! Drawer action? Nah, Tabs? Well maybe, let's try it. Don't want it? Shut it off. Dock should be this way. For now, it is on whether you like it or not.

Mikey-San...
How about a menu button that goes one more and shows you a complete hierarchy?
Sarcasm aside, let me clarify this new buttons action.
Click the the button, and you go up one hierarchal level.
Click and hold the button, and the hierarchal path shows up and you can move and release back as far as you wish.
Yes, I know about the Path button.

JayBee...
I'm not really sure what you're wanting here? So you want a secure system without any passwords?
No, passwords are great and necessary. I just don't want to have to use a password when switching from user to user within my own home. However, any changes to the system (installing a program, login etc.) would require a password. Your admin user idea is very helpful. I will explore that this weekend.

jecwobble...
I think preferences, global and personal, should be part of the app's bundle.
I have always thought that too, jecwobble. But JayBee is correct on some of the issue involved. I suggested a utility to Apple as well as here called Preference Manager. You use this to list all applications with preference files. You can quarantine one if your application is crashing and restore it if it was not the problem. You will also see, in red, those applications that are no longer installed. For example, the original iMovie preferences are still in my Library folder gathering dust. This should be a good solution for vonleigh's inquiry. He is right, there needs to be a more elegant solution.

Now to conclude (stimulating guys!--thanks!)...
There are hacks and scripts for us advanced users. I would like to see OSX improve so that 1) hacks and work arounds are not necessary. 2) an easier way to solve problems for the novice without digging into the Library. The best and most important solution, fix problems that corrupt the preference files. This is a tall order, so, provide a preference manager that makes it easy to houseclean and troubleshoot.