Windows XP vs OSX
 

The features that I am looking for are found in Windows XP but not OSX. So my wishlist is reflected here.

Windows XP vs. OSX

Some of your items are taken care of with Panther
The remove program utility is not relevant to OS X, it doesn't splat files all over the registry (there isn't one)
Graphed CPU and memory are in Panther.
System Restore is fairly simple in OS X (not to the degree as Windows (usually don't need a multi level restore in OS X )
trash has too many alternatives to worry about getting at the trash (a Mac will right click to the trash, too)

Trash:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...31030180408755

Text-based CPU and Memory without graphing.
Activity Monitor

Default is set to "Icon" view. Must set each new folder individually.
Open your HD, choose your view and then choose this for all windows... works for me

System icons are set. Must pay for hack to change icons.

What system icons do you speak of? I have been able to change icons for all things I have wanted to without a problem.
http://www.resexcellence.com/archive_icons_01/

System Restore
Never seen it work on a Windows machine...
now regedit /restore used to work in Win98 and ME about 25% of the time, but they seemed to have replaced that.
Might I recommend
http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html and make a backup schedule.

Can change colors (dark for studio use) as well as font size (large for poor eyesight).
Universal Access

Now these don't solve all of your requests, but there are probably a lot more. This is also not to tell you that you are wrong - but to show you there are ways to do what you are asking for ---- all free and so far, no haxies...

Re: Windows XP vs OSX
 

Take also a look here: MacWindows the Web Site for Macintosh-Windows Integration
(I didn't read your article yet!)

Leo

Clarifications
 

Thanks Schwartze! Just a few clarifications...

Trash:
Yes, there is a way to hack it, but this should be easy for mom and pop. The user should be the one to decide where items reside. The trash should be undockable as well as completely moveable.

Text-based CPU and Memory without graphing. Activity Monitor
My bad, I was looking at Jaguar at the time. I will remove this from my list. Thanks!

Default is set to "Icon" view. Must set each new folder individually.
Open your HD, choose your view and then choose this for all windows... works for me
This is does not work for me, and it should not have to be that difficult to figure out for mom and pop.

System icons are set. Must pay for hack to change icons.
What system icons do you speak of?
Regular file icons, yes, but not system icons such as Favorites, Applications, etc.

System Restore
Never seen it work on a Windows machine...
I had an update do horrible harm on my WinXP machine. I was able to restore it to the state it was at the day before. Very nice.

Can change colors (dark for studio use) as well as font size (large for poor eyesight).
Universal Access
I was using poor eyesight as an example. I'm really talking about just being able to dictate the font that I want to use, not what OS demands that I use.

Both you and Schwartze provided some good comments and directions, so I rewrote my list. I removed the CPU and Memory process viewer because of the Activity monitor in Panther (I was looking at Jaguar at the time).

However, I would disagree with you regarding the Trash Can. I am thinking in terms of the average mom and pop user. A keystroke deletion goes counter to what the GUI is about. I can tell grandma that if she wants to delete a file, just drag it to the trash can.

OSX tells the user how he/she is to use the trash can. It should be that the user tells the OS how he/she wants to use the trash. Keep it in the dock? Fine. Drag it out of the Dock onto the desktop? Fine too. Place it in the menu? Wonderful! Yes, we can hack it to do such things, but the point is to make it easy for the new user. It needs to be part of the OS that EVERYTHING is moveable, menu-able, dockable and undockable.

If you put the trash on the desktop, it can be hidden by a folder (and expose fixes that, too), but the trash in the dock is always available. I disagree that the location of the trash would be a serious issue for 'Mom and Pop'. How about merely saying "The trash is always available to you in the Dock" (The Dock can be moved most anywhere around the edge of the desktop, and can be 'pinned' so the trash would always be in a chosen location)

Many system preferences aren't always a good thing.

I just spent half an hour searching through Outlook's multitude of preferences (email options, advanced email options, other options with email options, and so on). Why so long? Because there was something I was looking for ('mark as read' for the preview pane) and couldn't find it.

(I should note that I was a Windows user before I used Macs, so it's not an unfamiliarity thing)

But this is the only entry I'll put in the thread. Yes, there's always going to be something that someone is unhappy about with any OS. Choose which one suits you best and go with it.

At least you had the option to do something. With no preferences, you have to love it or lump it. If there was a program called iThemes that had hundreds of preference choices, and you never ever use it. No problem! But without it, the way I work is dictated by Apple.

Trash in the Dock is diametrically opposed to the new Panther environment philosophy, that is "The user dictates the OS, not the other way around." This was the purpose of the left had menu, and I agree, it allows the user more control. The trash can is stuck, unless you hack it, and that is just plain wrong. Give the user control as much as possible.

I may be mistaken here, but I don't think looking through a boatload of preferences will be any easier to the hypothetical 'Mom & Pop' than learning to choose 'Move to Trash' from the Finder's File Menu.

And of course you have options: buy Windows; use Linux or NetBSD, stay in OS 9. I think to some extent this dictation business is self-imposed.

Also remember

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

if you really wish something changed.

I'm glad you found some of the things useful and I can see and understand your frustration for the "average mom and pop"... I will even add the "boss" to that list.

I have found out a few things as of late (with both Mac and Windows).
1. Most people who get computers just really want to look at porn and steal music, so if you can show then how to do that, they are happy

2. Mom and Pop usually call son or daughter to set up the machine, so... if there is something they want, you end up doing it for them (Trash Can on the Desktop would be a good example)

3. Mom and Pop usually stick with the defaults because they are either afraid to break the machine or are tired of being yelled at by their child for calling them at all hours when the mom or pop can now easily find the porn, download and print out the Daily Racing Form, but can not for the life of them find the big volume key on their Compaq laptop (no... that story wasn't personal ;) )

When people like you (and this is meant is a good way - really) who like to tinker with the machine to get it to look and feel as you like, there are ways to do it as you have found some of them here.

Good luck on setting up that holiday machine!

No, that is not what I meant for that point. I believe that the way the Mac operates needs to be in control of the user. This is why we have an Activity Monitor, this is why we have a command line. Will mom and pop use these? No. Will I? Yes. I want the option to use it if it is there, and ignore it if I do not care.

No, I do not want those OS platforms for many reasons. I think I have some valid points. Why should I state my wishlist items if I am only told to move to another platform?

I do... weekly. I just mention it here to spread my opinion. Perhaps someone will agree and add to my voice and talk to Apple as well.

If anyone's interested in duking out this whole Mac/Windows thing on a grander scale, check out xvsxp.com.

It's a great site!

a holy grail and an albatross. perhaps useful as an ultimate goal, but consider that a lack of consistent interface is a nightmare to support at the help desk. having more than two or three ways to accomplish something can become a bit of a quagmire.

some reasonable alternatives are available. and, if you think about it, drag & drop was okay at one time, but power-keys are much less work. (i haven't drag'd anything to the trash in years since the invention of the cmd-backspace whisk-broom.)

if there are too many knobs, switches, levers, dials added to the interface, it might as well become MS Windows with it's dubious featuritis.

2¢

OK, now that makes sense. I think it would depend alot on the preferences. If there was a centralized program that did nothing but maintained user preferences with a pulldown menu "Apple Default", then the Help Desk would always have the base on which to work. If it clears up the problem, then a preference setting is doing the damage.

As it stands now, users are hacking the OS to accomplish their preferred way of doing things. Now the Help Desk has a bigger problem on their hands.

So, my question for Apple would be, who would you rather have controlling the user environment? The user via Apple's preference panel, or third party hack jobs?

Thanks for your two cents.

Regardless of what customizability Apple might build into the GUI, users will find some reason to tweak, twaddle and hack beyond THAT feature set.

well, if you have hacked your rig, and you call apple about it, their job is easiest of all. "We don't support <insert 3rd-party hack here>. Restore your installation to how it was before your hack. [click]"

Both Rusto and Merv...

Ahh, true on both counts. sigh...

Just to reinforce what has been said... or possibly flog a dead horse ;)

Mom and Pop don't really care about their computers. They don't want to customise it, they want it to work. I have yet to see any Mom and Pop team pick up any variant of Windows as quickly as they've picked up OS X.

I don't want to turn this into a "which is better" thing, but a LOT of it is to do with the fact that OS X does its thing and shuts up, and doesn't expect the user to want to (or, really, HAVE to) go in and tailor the system to the way they want it.

The Dock is a great example. There are a LOT of people out there who hate it, who want rid of it, who do just about everything they can think of to lose it and replace it. I know - I was one.

The thing is, if you just relax and use it for a while, it kinda disappears. I found that all the replacements I used needed waaay too much maintenance. The Dock just does its thang, and if you use it without trying to force it to do something it wasn't designed for, then it's a beautifully clean solution to a problem.

Basically, OS X hides away a whole load of "options" because, for Mom and Pop, they don't need to be confused by them. If I explained to them that they can have the trash in three or four different locations, but they're all the SAME THING, not three or four different things, that would confuse the issue. Maybe not for someone like us who understands the idea of a single object having multiple access points like links, aliases, shortcuts etc, but for Mom and Pop, they want one thing to BE one thing.

The beauty and truth of OS X is that, once you stop trying to fight it, and once you stop being pissed off about it insisting that it knows best and not letting you change stuff, you realise that, for a LOT of things, OS X does actually know best.

In answer to the idea about who should be in charge of the GUI, I'd pick a team of the finest HCI experts in the world over my lame ass any day ;)

Thanks Chris, I have just begun to look it over. Yes, it looks very good. Thanks for the redirect!

Have read a few more pages. What a great site for seeing the differences!! Very thorough.

Oh, most defintately. Or administrator who must create multiple user defaults or multiple client machines with all the same setting defaults.

My point exactly! The less I have to handhold them, the better. I always tell them, buy a MAC!

See, this is the difference between Apple and M$. M$ will create 12 different OSes to fit the target user, while Apple will create 2. This creates a real challenge for Apple, one for which they have done very well. I think the trick is to have a central preference manager (with an Apple Default setting) that is accessible to all users. Mom and pop will not know it is there, and will not care. I will know it is there, and I will be glad and use it.

Thanks for the provocative post

JayBee,

I can see your thought process on that long post, so I feel I need to clarify my attitude regarding Apple and their GUI.

Yes, I would trust them to be in charge of the GUI, after all, it's their baby. But when they changed the entire way you work going from the OS9 environment to OSX, they made a crucial mistake, that is, making you radically change the way you work. People depend on Macintosh to be consistent and moving cold turkey was very difficult to many businesses. I know, I watched our 40 machine Graphics department deal with the change. Yes, relax and get used to it. But much of that getting-used-to business cost us alot of money in lost productivity.

OK, the dock is a clean utility that just works. Granted. But it should not be an intrical part of the interface or work environment, it should be what it is, a utility, one that can be turned off. Yes, for mom and pop it is a godsend and I always set it up for them to use. For me, its lost real estate, even with auto-hide (it pops its head up when I cursor near it working on something).

Here is where Apple got it very very right... customize menu. This tells me, "User, you know what you need to work effectively." I just want a few things, another may want all of them, another may want none. Everyone is happy because the user dictates the environment.

Here is where Apple has missed it...
Trash Can in the Dock. You cannot undock it, it moves when you try to throw something away. As you start or stop an application, it shifts. This tells me, "User, you have no choice unless you hack it. Get used to it. Buy a utility if you don't like it. Use a key shortcut. Find a way around it."

I hope you can see my point. If I am setting up for grandma to send email to family, I can taylor the OS to be super-simple. If a Switcher comes along and misses a feature from Windows, I would like the Mac OS to say, don't pine, here it is. If I am setting up my Mac as a home Jukebox, I would like the interface to look like black anodized aluminum with bright blue lettering with gray hilight. OSX has the potential to do all these and more.

Part of the reason I love my caller ID!

When I look at it, Microsoft has two OSs too. DOS and NT and in reality, they really only have one - IE.

One thing I notice with the people at work, even after they were upgraded to XP (before being downgraded to 2000 'cause XP Pro for some reason couldn't handle the network strain???) - they chose to move back to the 2K/98 look - so yes that option is something that is lacking... but with all the flavors, 98SE, ME, 2K, XP Home, XP Professional, and now even Malaysian Longhorn when that call comes in to me to fix something (mom, pop, friend) I have to figure out which OS they are using (cause they don't know - it just came with the machine), which commands still work to fix the problem and where things were put again.

XP is a prime example of this. I still walk into the bosses office and can't find half his stuff, menu bars etc, not because he wanted to move them to some obscure place within the app, but because he accidentally clicked something and it went away.

The more people write about things they want - the more people come out of the woodwork and work on something to make it happen --- and it is done without annoying malicious programs added onto it. I usually ask a lot more questions then I give answers to, but even I was happy when I was able to make something to help someone out. This and other places like it are great places to find these things - and get honest reviews of them before you test them out on your machine.

Wow - that was long. Sorry about that.

No apologies necessary, I'm not the emperor in Amadeus saying, "It is a marvelous work, it just had... well, too many notes."
I think I should clarify. Yes, they really have two. But I would call those "underpinnings". Such as the underpinnings of OS7-9 were relatively the same and OSX is UNIX. I was thinking more "topside" such as OSX and OSX Server.

But your point is taken and is right-on the money.

right, after a yummy sip of coffee, he's back for a concise comment about OS design philosophies:

Apple : "what do we need?"
MicroSoft : "what can we add?"

I think this is the fundamental difference. I don't know which is better, but I know which I prefer. I'm a firm believer that the vendor should concentrate on making the OS as stable and usable as possible, and that all forms of customisation should ideally be left to third parties.

This is just my take on it though. I'm not anti choice, but I want to be able to chose the choice, if you know what I mean? ;)

One reflects efficiency while the other leads to bloatware. If Apple adds nothing new to OS10.4 except snappier response and more preferences for the way we work, I would shovel out ANOTHER $130.

I found a very good example of what I am talking about in this MacOSXHints article.

(see bottom of article)

O.K. everything I wanted to say about the original post has pretty much been said, so I see no reason to rehash.

There is one thing though that I don't understand, and (I confess I only 'scanned' through a majority of the posts) I haven't seen covered yet.

What do you mean by "Insecure Fast User Switching"?

Everytime you switch users, you have to enter a Password.... how is this insecure?

No, I use Fast Switching with my family where I do not need passwords. This allows extremely quick switches from user to user. Unfortuately, they did not secure the admin side so that there is a password for fiddling with the system. I am also vulnerable to outside fiddling as well.

Secure Fast User Switching would be (to me) to login with password the first time you switch users or when you log back in from a logout. Any admin routines would require the password. Any access from the outside would require the password. In other words, everything requires the password except for changing from user to user. This, of course, can be turned on or off by the individual user via the user preferences.

See?

I'm not sure I understand your list either, maybe it's because I'm not very familiar with XP (don't use it a whole lot, only to test websites really):

* As far as I know you can create a default folder view, just set it to "All Windows" and that's your new default.

* Trash Can in the Dock: I don't see it as a Mom and Pop issue at all. I agree that you may not like it and would like to change it, but that is more of a personal annoyance. There are several hints with dealing with it however, personally i'd just make a symlink if it bothers you.

* I don't understand why you want more preferences. Can you back up "but limits a users ability to use his machine properly" with some examples? I would argue that it's a bad thing for XP to have that many prefs, they're just confusing and fairly useless; so much so they force you to use condescending Wizards.

* "Up one hierarchal step menu button", not sure what that means. Could you clarify?

I think he wants a button in the Finder's toolbar that takes him not BACK, but UP one directory.

. . . How about a menu button that goes one more and shows you a complete hierarchy? You can click it and snap up to the location you want.

www.mikey-san.net/finder_hierarchy.jpg

Nope :)

I'm not really sure what you're wanting here? So you want a secure system without any passwords? If I understand correctly (and I clearly don't ;) ), you've got a system in which nobody has passwords, but you want some sort of password protection?

My solution would be to create an "Admin" user with a password, and create all other users as non-admin users without passwords. If someone has to authenticate, they can use the commonly known Admin username/password. However, if you're running OS X with un-locked Admin users, you're just asking for trouble if you connect to the net.

What's your IP address anyway? :P

Seriously, though, I don't see how this is really a "fast user switching" issue. Could you clarify, as this sounds interesting.

How did I miss that path addition? You just made my day!

My two cents
 

Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out (I don't have time to read every reply), but there is a way to go up one hierarchal step from the folder you are in. Command-click on the title of the window to get a hierarchal drop-down list. I admit it's obscure and a bit non-intuative to someone who hasn't worked with Macs for a long time. Just wanted to share.

As for your other items, most aren't issues for me personally, but I do agree with your frustration about preference files laying around for apps I tested once and then got rid of. I think preferences, global and personal, should be part of the app's bundle. That way, when you throw it in the trash (yes, on the Dock), it takes all of it's files with it. I realize there's some logistical issues with this idea, but the fact is, humans made these computers, so humans are responsible for these logistical issues. :-)

Re: My two cents
 

Man, I'm just turning into the naysayer of the group ;)

Anyway, I think this would bring up a whole load of bad karma. This doesn't make me or my users responsible for the logistics, it makes my computer and the app's programmers responsible.

For example, what happens if my prefs get corrupted? At the moment, I can just trash or remove my prefs from my Library, and see if that does the trick. If you embed prefs in the app, that becomes dangerous inconsistent.

Not only that, but if my prefs are screwed just now, I don't affect anybody else's ability to use the app. If my wife wants to log in and use Mail, my screwy prefs have nothing to do with it. Works for her, not for me till I fix it.

If my prefs were somehow "global", then boom - my screwed prefs screw ALL USERS over. This is bad, and I like the way Apple are keeping user level stuff like prefs at a user level in the OS.

Oh, and before anyone thinks I'm getting all "OS X is perfect, leave it alone!" here, I've got to say that Mail's new Panther-style method of picking send-from email addresses has to be the worst thing on any system EVER!

:)

Second that, JayBee. When things that should rightfully be global prefs get put into Userspace things like this happen, all too easily.

The converse would be equally confusing.

Re: Re: My two cents
 

I agree. Ooops. I mean I agree with the rest of your post. ':)'

At any rate, the preferences files left behind are usually very small and it does not matter if they are there or not. Many times you can tell what preference file goes with what application by the name of the preference file (usually has a name like the application name or like that of the developer). Just throw them away as you throw away the application.

With folder actions and labels it is now easy to keep track of the preference files of applications which you are testing. Before you install an application, enable folder actions and add the folder action "add - new item alert.scpt" found in "/Library/Scripts/Folder\ Action\ Scripts". Now start the appplication and play with it. When it creates preference files/folders, the folder action will warn you and ask you if you want to see the new files. If you say "Yes" then it will open a Finder window and show them to you, highlighted. While they are still highlighted, assign them a label, say blue. You might leave a file somewhere telling yourself what color each trial application's preference files have been labelled, but that should be no problem if you use one such file for all your trial applications. Anyway, when you throw out the application, you can easily toss its preferences at the same time.

Actually I have to disagree with the preferences issue. Right now I just checked and I have almost 350 items in my Preferences Folder, the folder uses up 50MB.

Although one could script something up to guess if the prefs belong to an application that is installed. I say guess because even though some are terribly intuitive:

Youpi Key.plist
com.apple.finder.plist
or even
Beholder Preferences

Some are less than intuitive, for example I have:
ACE2Cache
User Data... <insert strange string of characters>

However, I'm not sure what the best way of solving the issue would be. I would definitely not change the separation of /Library/Preferences and ~/Library/Preferences.

There used to be Spring Cleaning by Aladdin, they probably still make it. It might solve it by guessing and having a database of known prefs.

v

Edit: WhatSize to the rescue (pick of the week a little while ago). Found an old Opera pref folder (with cache) plus other hogs, now down to a more reasonable 15MB.

Clarification for Everyone Here...
 

Just to avoid alot of individual posts, I want to address some of the individual good points here.

First, JayBee...
Man, I'm just turning into the naysayer of the group
Oh hardly, this is all part of the arguement/adjust/suggestion process. If you think that more preferences are a problem, which they could be, then say on! The corrupted file problem is indeed an issue, and I think that Apple should fix this first. I say FIX it, not LIMIT it as the problem solver. So, speak on, I dig your input. (more on this issue later) (:

vonleigh...
As far as I know you can create a default folder view, just set it to "All Windows" and that's your new default.
This has never EVER worked as you describe. Everything is determined by the notorious .ds_store file. Read this article for way loads of information. As an example, create all your settings in list view. Now make a new folder. Is it in list view? No. If you go to other folders with no .ds_store file, does it display in list view? No. Put in a CD burned from a PC, does it display in list view? No. In XP, what you apply in the global option, is applied everywhere except where you have dictated "This window only".

Trash Can in the Dock
The trash can has become a symbol for the OS dictating how the user should work and not visa verse. You should not have to hack to have the interface work the way you feel it should. Its not the Trash Can, it's what it represents.

I don't understand why you want more preferences
OSX is trying to be simple for the new user, yet detailed for the advanced power user. Preferences allow the power user to shape the OS to fit his/her needs, requirements or ways of working. It also says, "User, you are in control, not the OS." Example, how about a slider bar that sets how fast the interface animations run. Me? I would set it so fast that you barely see them. Others may find the animations useful feedback. I can think of 50 such little helps. They are there if you need them, ignore them if you do not care. I thought of a great example. Everyone is raving about DragThing, and for good reason. You can customize your menus to the wazoo. Is this good or bad? I think it is very good, even though I use, probably 10% of the settings. Color and textures? Nah. Transparency? Yes! Drawer action? Nah, Tabs? Well maybe, let's try it. Don't want it? Shut it off. Dock should be this way. For now, it is on whether you like it or not.

Mikey-San...
How about a menu button that goes one more and shows you a complete hierarchy?
Sarcasm aside, let me clarify this new buttons action.
Click the the button, and you go up one hierarchal level.
Click and hold the button, and the hierarchal path shows up and you can move and release back as far as you wish.
Yes, I know about the Path button.

JayBee...
I'm not really sure what you're wanting here? So you want a secure system without any passwords?
No, passwords are great and necessary. I just don't want to have to use a password when switching from user to user within my own home. However, any changes to the system (installing a program, login etc.) would require a password. Your admin user idea is very helpful. I will explore that this weekend.

jecwobble...
I think preferences, global and personal, should be part of the app's bundle.
I have always thought that too, jecwobble. But JayBee is correct on some of the issue involved. I suggested a utility to Apple as well as here called Preference Manager. You use this to list all applications with preference files. You can quarantine one if your application is crashing and restore it if it was not the problem. You will also see, in red, those applications that are no longer installed. For example, the original iMovie preferences are still in my Library folder gathering dust. This should be a good solution for vonleigh's inquiry. He is right, there needs to be a more elegant solution.

Now to conclude (stimulating guys!--thanks!)...
There are hacks and scripts for us advanced users. I would like to see OSX improve so that 1) hacks and work arounds are not necessary. 2) an easier way to solve problems for the novice without digging into the Library. The best and most important solution, fix problems that corrupt the preference files. This is a tall order, so, provide a preference manager that makes it easy to houseclean and troubleshoot.

You're right...I dismissed that without thinking carefully. However, cache files (most likely to be taking up significant room) are an easy and well marked place to look for and kill. That brings to mind another incompleteness in my post: to look in

~/Library/Caches/
~/Library/ApplicationSupport

for additional folders and files related to an application which one has tried.

Once the cattle are out of the barn, it is rather difficult to try and find unnecessary items. However, if one planned in advance (as per my previous post), then accumulating useless preferences would not be a big problem. One really would not need to place the two above folders under the same folder action because application data in these folders *is* well named. Upon trashing an application, one would only need to trash obvious items from the above two folders, and labeled items from the ~/Library/Preferences/ folder. If I am correct, AppleScript does not yet support labels, but when it does, this could be automated a little.

Perhaps a better answer is that Apple should include in its guidelines to developers that
(1) include a file listing what the application and its installer installed, and where;
(2) each application follow a natural naming scheme for its preferences files;
and perhaps even:
(3) each application include a menu item which would delete all preferences, cache, etc for that application. For something like Stuffit which installs things in system locations, there could be another menu item which removes these as well. (Of course, then watch someone select these by accident).



I hesitate to go so far as to request an uninstaller; in OS X this issue is not so complicated as it is in the window's world and I'd hate to make it sound so.

I hesitate to go so far as to request an uninstaller; in OS X this issue is not so complicated as it is in the window's world and I'd hate to make it sound so.
I just noticed that Tinkertool has an uninstaller.

I wonder. Would it be possible to put some kind of teather or thread that when you throw an application in the trash it pulls the various library files with it?

Good points. I think it could be as simple as:

1. Asking developers that if they're going to use more than one pref, etc. they put it in a folder (this applies also to application support). And that the pref and/or folder be named appropriately.

2. To have applications use the .bom file. Or if they don't have an installer, that they put the file in ~/Library/Receipts on first run.

That way there's no need for an additional place to store " (1) include a file listing what the application and its installer installed, and where;" when bom files fit this nicely.


v

What leads you to believe that developers and 3rd party Installer vendors have not already been asked to do this? Or that they will pay any more attention if asked again?

Some of both the largest and smallest developer (including Apple themselves) break the suggested guidelines all the time. Just like the largest and smallest (including Microsoft themselves) break the suggested Windows guidelines all the time.

Unfortunately just one is enough to start screwing things up. :(

That is true, in the end they're just guidelines. But I'm pretty sure the bom isn't a guideline (maybe if you use installer.app).

v

Hi schneb - flattery will get you everywhere ;)

Just a quickie (haven't they all been?!

"You should not have to hack to have the interface work the way you feel it should"

Hrm. I can't agree with you without qualification there. Define "the way you feel it should", or better, replace it with "the way I feel it should" ;)

Seriously, though, there's a limit. The point I've found with OS X is that there ARE "prefs" for power users - you refer to them as "hacks". We're agreed that Mom and Pop don't need or want most of the stuff we're talking about, so why should the prefs be Mom and Pop friendly?

To take the symbol of the trash as an example. You're not a Mom and Pop user, so you'll be comfortable following simple "power user" instructions. Open Terminal, type "ln -s .Trash Desktop/Trash". Copy and paste whatever icon you like on to the new alias. Good to go.

Is this "Apple Intuitive"? No. Should there be a way to do it without having to go through this procedure? Possibly, as there seem to be enough people with this issue to warrant the ability to drag the Trash alias off the Dock.

However, this is at best a borderline case, and illustrates my point - the prefs ARE there generally speaking. The user IS in control of their system, whether they know it or not. However, comparing the two routes, we have two options - scare the user with a myriad options, or hide those options.

Believe it or not, many "normal" users feel the opposite of you - they feel that more options put the computer in charge, as the computer bombards them with handholding queries every step of the way - Windows Wizards are a major symptom of this, with Apple's ideal install method (Drag app to Applications) makes the Wizards look both arcane and archaic. I would stick my neck out and sweepingly say that "most" Mom and Pop users feel empowered, not entrapped, by a distinct lack of options. They feel like they can get on with telling the computer what they want done and have the computer work for them, not the other way round.

What you seem to be suggesting is that this be thrown away and that Apple provide every conceivable option as a click box somewhere. Why? There ARE ways to do most of what you're suggesting, and if they're hacks then so be it - that's what you're suggesting - hacking the system.

Anyway, rant on :)

Oh, and best of luck with the admin/users idea. Hope it makes sense? If you need any pointers let me know and I'll see what I can do!

I don't check private messages very often, so if you send me one let me know on one of the multi-threads ;)

Thanks Jaybee, stimulating as always. And your comments have spurred me to recode my preferences concern and rewrite it thus...

Rather than more preferences to set or disable, my answer would be to adjust the OS around my way of working. Let me explain this with our favorite example--the Trash Can.

Currently, the Trash Can is pinned to the Dock. Without using the hack you provided in your post, there it stays.

What I would like to see with this and a few other items in OSX, is for the Trash Can to be an application in the Utilities folder. By default, it is in the Dock. But you can unlock it by cntrl-click and poof it.
Now you have no Trash Can, but you can move it from the Utilities folder and place it on the desktop or place it as an icon in left menu or the customize menu, or locked back in the dock.
It does more, it also does not officially delete, rather it pretends to delete*. You can also do a security zero-bit delete as a cntrl-menu option as well as selected volume deletion.

So now the Trash Can has become an uber-can that is under my control. This to me makes a smarter OS and really shines a GUI. No additional preferences needed, just more control for the user without command-line hacks.


*This may need clarification. Back in the OS9 days, there was this great utitlity that made your trash can act exactly as it always did. However, it only pretened to empty, even displaying available space opened on the hard drive. But the files were there unaltered in case you made a booboo. It was a great utility. In the case of needed space, this new application idea would write over older files first (all in the background of course, you would never see this)

Was I the only one that thought of "oh I looove trash! I love it because it's trash!". That was the best app of all times. Anyway, sorry for the OT.

v

schneb ---

I was at Barns and Nobles today browsing the magazines and there was an article in Mac Tech about building your own Preference Panes using Project Builder.

Was a bit over my head - but while sitting there looking through the magazines I thought of this thread and though you might be interested.

Interesting, thanks, I will look for it. The website did not offer it... yet. But thanks for thinking of me regarding this issue and discussion.