Advice Needed for Fsck Operation
 

I'm struggling with an unmountable, unrepairable (via Disk Utility) internal hard drive. My PowerBook G4 is currently booted and running from an external drive connected by FW. DiskWarrior has been able to successfully rebuild the internal drive's directory, but gives no option to replace the damaged directory on the internal drive. The hardware tests I've run indicate no mechanical problems with the internal drive.

I have read that many people have had success with the" fsck_hfs -r" Terminal command for drives that are not repairable by Disk Utility/DiskWarrior and/or have become unmountable. In some cases, it seems this command might need to be run multiple times, but then results in successful repair and mounting. I would like to give this a try, short of my seemingly last resort of having to do a full system reinstall or even an archive and install.

So, here are my questions:

1. My unmounted internal drive is identified as "disk2s3". So, would I open Terminal and type in "fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3" (without the quotation marks)?

2. My internal drive is already unmounted (actually, unmountable), so that shouldn't be a problem, right?

3. Since my startup drive is my external drive, could I just run the Terminal command by opening up Terminal without having to restart the computer (e.g., in Single User Mode)?

4. Is there any downside to trying this Terminal command? All of my files, folders, and applications on the internal drive appear to be intact as I can see from the DiskWarrior rebuild. I do have everything backed up on another external drive, but I don't want to make an already bad situation worse.

5. Is there anything else via Terminal that I should try instead of or in addition to the "fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3" command?

Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated, especially since I am pretty much clueless when it comes to Terminal (but I can follow instructions really well). Thank you for any help...

The button to replace the directory is on the bottom right of the report. For example, see below:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6030/...18913396da.jpg

DiskWarrior is far more capable than fsck and Disk Utility > Repair Disk (which use the same underlying code).

Because fsck uses the same underlying code as Disk Utility > Repair Disk, the only potential difference is that fsck is usually run while in single user mode from the hard drive, whereas Disk Utility is typically run from CD/DVD. But overall, I find it extremely doubtful that fsck could be successful after Disk Utility > Repair Disk has failed, since they are running the same program. And it is completely contrary to my personal experience that fsck would be successful when DiskWarrior has failed. DiskWarrior is far more capable and robust and complete than fsck.

Yes, sometimes fsck needs to be run multiple times. This is also true of Disk Utility > Repair Disk.

Really, I think your best bet is to use DiskWarrior. There's a manual for it included on the DiskWarrior CD/DVD for more advanced subjects.

Trevor

It's unlikely that fsck will help, when Disk Warrior does not.

Your hard drive may simply be failing, and therefore may need to be replaced.

You have another thread, where you were ready to try to find a Leopard installer disk, AND, that's likely something that you will STILL need, regardless of the outcome of the fsck.

The reason I say that, is that multiple issues in the disk directory may leave the system software with some file corruption, and an OS X reinstall will be the fix for that.
So, here's my advice (For what it's worth...)
Boot to your backup hard drive, or to a Leopard installer DVD, whichever you can boot to.
Erase your internal hard drive using Disk Utility.
Reinstall Leopard, or do a restore through Disk Utility, restoring your backup hard drive to your erased internal hard drive. That will only work, if your external backup is bootable. If it is NOT bootable, then you will need to reinstall Leopard, using your Leopard installer DVD.
Do you see a pattern here?
That pattern is: you need to get a Leopard installer DVD.

Hi Trevor,

Thank you very much for responding.

<<The button to replace the directory is on the bottom right of the report.>>

Yes, the "replace" button has always been there for me in the lower right of my DW report window, but it is greyed out and, therefore, I am given no option to replace the rebuilt directory. I can only preview it and see all of my data looking just like my internal drive used to look when it was mounted and accessible.

<<...fsck is usually run while in single user mode from the hard drive...>>

I understand, but couldn't fsck be run just by opening the Terminal application if the command(s) are being applied to a drive that is not the startup drive that is running the computer?

<<But overall, I find it extremely doubtful that fsck could be successful after Disk Utility > Repair Disk has failed...>>

You're probably right, but the reason I posed this possibility here is that I've read about quite a few people who have had similar problems to mine (unsuccessful repair via DU, DW couldn't replace a rebuilt directory, and/or drive became unmounted and wouldn't remount), but found success with the fsck command I'm wondering about.

Would there be any harm in trying "fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3" or is there something else via Terminal that I can try in order to get my drive repaired or, at least, mounted? I do know that, after my internal drive became unmounted after a computer freeze, the drive's info panel in DU indicated that Owners Enabled had somehow switched from "Yes" to "No" (for whatever that may be worth) and the drive became impossible to mount.

<<Really, I think your best bet is to use DiskWarrior. There's a manual for it included on the DiskWarrior CD/DVD for more advanced subjects.>>

Well, I've tried DiskWarrior several times and it has worked beautifully except for being unable to replace the rebuilt directory. I've read where people have actually manually replaced the contents of the preview disk onto the damaged drive, but I can't do that either because my internal drive is stuck in an unmounted state. Yes, I have read through the entire DW manual more than once trying to find a possible solution (and I've also spoken with Alsoft Tech Support), but have come up empty handed. It's like a Catch-22...every time I come close to solving the problem, I hit a brick wall.

Does the report give any explanation of why you can't replace? Like, for example, a note that there is not enough space on your hard drive to replace?

Yes, it most definitely can. I was commenting on typical usage that might explain a difference in outcome between Disk Utility > Repair Disk and fsck.

But of course, what you're talking about is fully possible. That said, if you are booted to a fully functioning hard drive with a working installation of OS X, and you compare running Disk Utility > Repair Disk with running fsck from the command line, there's no difference in code or environment, so should be no difference in result. The two are just presented differently.

I don't personally believe that there will be any harm, no. There are a lot of unknowns here, and certainly other people may have a different and completely valid opinion on this question.

You can certainly try the mount command. You will need to mount it before running fsck on the volume, since you mention that it's not yet mounted. Run man mount for the manual.

Can we see the text of the DiskWarrior report?

Trevor

Hi DeltaMac,

<<It's unlikely that fsck will help, when Disk Warrior does not.>>

From you and Trevor, I now get that fsck is unlikely to help, but I am trying to figure out if it's even worth a try without doing any damage. I am trying to keep my internal drive as intact as possible. The only way I can see the contents of the drive is when I run DW...it's all there. I mean, if I try a fsck repair, other than being informed that the disk cannot be repaired, what's the worst that can happen?

<<You have another thread, where you were ready to try to find a Leopard installer disk, AND, that's likely something that you will STILL need, regardless of the outcome of the fsck.>>

Yes, a replacement set of Leopard installer disks have been ordered from Apple, but it's still probably going to be several weeks before I will have the option to reinstall the system from the Leopard disk if necessary.

<<Boot to your backup hard drive, or to a Leopard installer DVD, whichever you can boot to.>>

The only bootable drive I have right now is my Tiger external drive (and, of course, the Tiger install disks). The external drive that has my Leopard backup is not bootable. You and I discussed creating a partition on the other thread, but I mentioned that I was hesitant to do anything to the backup external drive right now since it is my only backup.

<<That pattern is: you need to get a Leopard installer DVD.>>

Agreed, but I am trying to find a solution sooner than 2-3 weeks from now when the disk(s) finally arrive. If I can get my internal drive mounted and repaired, I will have a bootable Leopard drive (and can also create a backup from there).

Thanks for all of your input and very worthwhile advice...I really do appreciate it.

Hi Trevor,

<<Does the report give any explanation of why you can't replace?>>

I don't have the report right in front of me, but the reason given for not being able to replace the directory pointed to a hardware issue. However, after speaking with Alsoft and going through a number of different checks and tests, it seems that the hardware aspect of the drive was not the issue, but that the drive needed to be repaired due to a node structure problem.

<<...if you are booted to a fully functioning hard drive with a working installation of OS X, and you compare running Disk Utility > Repair Disk with running fsck from the command line, there's no difference in code or environment, so should be no difference in result.>>

What you're saying makes absolute sense to me. My knowledge level with fsck and Terminal commands is close to zero, but it sounds as if DU is like an automatic transmission and fsck is like a stick shift for the same engine. The comments I had read from users who found success with fsck when DU wouldn't work made me think the two functions were different in terms of potential outcome and prompted me to get some fsck guidance here.

<<You can certainly try the mount command. You will need to mount it before running fsck on the volume, since you mention that it's not yet mounted. Run man mount for the manual.>>

If I need to have a mounted volume before running fsck, then fsck is not an option. The internal drive volume (Mac HD 10.5) will not mount via DU (it's just gone from the desktop entirely). I'm not sure what you mean by "run man mount for the manual". I did try "diskutil mount /dev/disk2s3" last week and got this message: "Volume /dev/disk2s3 mounted", but the drive was still not showing up on the desktop and was showing as being unmounted in DU. When I've tried to use the "Mount Me" app, it recognizes the volume Mac HD 10.5 and indicates that mounting was successful, yet the volume remains unmounted. Seems strange, doesn't it? Is there another Terminal command I should be using to try to mount the internal drive?

<<Can we see the text of the DiskWarrior report?>>

Sure...I assume you mean the entire report with all of the directory repairs that were made. I will see if I still have the copy of the report from last week's run. Otherwise, I will have to rerun DW which can take a while, but I'll supply the report as soon as I can.

Before I tackle the DiskWarrior report that's been requested by Trevor, I decided to try "fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3" to see what would happen. Here's what happened in Terminal:

Janessdba$ fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3
Can't open /dev/rdisk2s3: Permission denied

1. Is there anything I can type (cut/paste) to get past the permission issue with this command?

2. Does the permission reference have anything to do with Owners Enabled changing from "Yes" to "No" on the unmountable internal drive and, if so, is there a Terminal command to change Owners Enabled back to "Yes" for that drive? Owners Enabled is "Yes" for my two external drives that are connected by FW cables.

3. Why did "disk2s3" input get changed to "rdisk2s3" in the results?

4. Is there any Terminal command that will mount the internal Mac HD 10.5 volume that is/was part of the disk2s3 drive? I've seen references to variations of the following, but have no idea if this command is even remotely correct:
/System/Library/Filesystems/hfs.fs/hfs.util -m /dev/disk2s3
For what it's worth, I think I had turned journaling off manually in Disk Utility at some point related to running Disk Warrior (at the suggestion of Alsoft Tech)...don't know if that would make a difference for mounting.

Thank you for any input on the above and I'll be back soon with the Disk Warrior report.

You can also try a sudo, adding that to the beginning of the command.
sudo will ask for a password, which will NOT be visible as you type it, so just type it in, and press enter after typing in your password.
(sudo promotes an admin user temporarily to root, or superuser)

<<You can also try a sudo, adding that to the beginning of the command.>>

So, does that mean that I would type "sudo fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3" (without the quotation marks)? I want to make sure I'm entering the correct command...again, I'm pretty much at the cut and paste level with Terminal. Also, do you think the permission denied message would have anything to do with the Owners Enabled "No" situation? Just curious...

I'm currently trying to pull the DiskWarrior report and had another quick question which I'll add while I'm here. Since you are clearly very knowledgeable about systems, would you have any clue about this...

I remember when I looked at the DW preview disk about a week ago, I did see two strange folders in the finder window of that disk. One folder was named "Net" and the other one was "Home". Both folders were empty. Would you happen to know where this folders came from and where they belong within the system?

I know I'm probably looking at an eventual Leopard reinstall, but I really would like to try anything I can to get my internal drive repaired and mounted via Terminal/fssk, then with the possibility of being able to somehow replace the directories with the successful rebuild on the Disk Warrior disk. Being unable to access my Leopard programs and related work has been crippling and the prospect of waiting several more weeks for my Leopard disks to arrive is a dismal thought.

Thank you again for all of your kind help and input.

The "net" and "Home" folders are normal folders, and, for most Macs, are empty.
Those folders are usually hidden, but sometimes are made visible.
They are just two of more than 10 hidden folders on your system, that may be visible under certain conditions.
And - probably not relevant to your issue.

Yes, you are showing a correct usage for the sudo command.
The use of the "sudo" will either allow the rest of the command to run, or you may still get a "permission denied", because you still have a file system issue (and your "unmountable" hard drive may still be unmountable).
I hope the fsck does help you - but don't be completely surprised that you still need a more involved fix.

I mean that in your Terminal, type the command

man mount

This will allow you to see the manual page for the mount command.

Trevor

Hi Delta Mac,

Thank you for your "sudo" suggestion...much appreciated. I entered that new command and the good news is that 1) the process got a bit further along than in Disk Repair and 2) Terminal did recognize that the disk2s3 was connected to my troubled Mac HD 10.5 volume. So, evidently, that fsck command was able to run on the unmounted disk.

The bad news (I guess) is that the problem seems to be an invalid node structure. I looked around a bit while Terminal was running and there are recommendations about how to try to correct node structure problems via Terminal. One suggestion I saw to repair invalid node structure errors was to enter the fsck command "/sbin/fsck_hfs -yprd /dev/2s3", but that's way beyond my scope to be able to have any idea what that would do. Maybe you or someone can suggest another fsck approach that might be worth trying. Does an invalid node structure error always mean a system reinstall? Anyway, here's what the Terminal spit out:

Janessdba$ sudo fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3
Password:
** /dev/rdisk2s3
** Checking HFS Plus volume.
** Checking Extents Overflow file.
** Checking Catalog file.
** Rebuilding Catalog B-tree.
Invalid node structure
(4, 15924)
** The volume Mac HD 10.5 could not be repaired.

HI Trevor,

<<I mean that in your Terminal, type the command

man mount

This will allow you to see the manual page for the mount command.>>

Alright, now I understand...I would just type "man mount" (without quotes) and that will bring up instructions with the actual command I would type in for my internal drive. I appreciate your patience with my Terminal guestions...I'm obviously at a very basic level and want to make sure I'm doing the right thing and also not putting my other 2 working drives in jeopardy. Thanks again.

Try running Disk Warrior again, using DWs "scavenge" mode.
Here's how (and why): http://www.macworld.com/article/1052...skwarrior.html

Hi Trevor,

Well, I guess I didn't fully understand "man mount"" since it doesn't really give specific commands, but provides a synopsis and description of the current state of affairs. That said, I don't have the faintest idea about what to do with the information that was provided. The only thing that is somewhat clear to me is that my 3 drives are listed under synopsis and the middle one is probably the internal drive (since the other two are noted by "external type"). Here are the results of "man mount":

MOUNT(8) BSD System Manager's Manual MOUNT(8)

NAME
mount -- mount file systems

SYNOPSIS
mount [-adfruvw] [-t ufs | lfs | external_type]
mount [-dfruvw] special | node
mount [-dfruvw] [-o options] [-t ufs | lfs | external_type] special node

DESCRIPTION
The mount command calls the mount(2) system call to prepare and graft a
special device or the remote node (rhost:path) on to the file system tree
at the point node. If either special or node are not provided, the
appropriate information is taken from the fstab(5) file.

The system maintains a list of currently mounted file systems. If no
arguments are given to mount, this list is printed.

The options are as follows:

-a All the filesystems described in fstab(5) are mounted. Excep-
tions are those marked as ``noauto'' or are excluded by the -t

Man Mount does not show anything about your own Mac, it's simply a man page. You could call it an info page about the Mount command, showing the various options that can be used with the Mount command.

The items in "man mount" SYNOPSIS are not YOUR drives, but just examples of how the mount command might be organized.
You can scroll down (using your arrow keys) to show the 2 or 3 more screens of more info about the Mount command options.

Let's break down the command that someone suggested to you.

/sbin/fsck_hfs is just the full path to fsck_hfs. Assuming that this version of fsck_hfs is the first one in your path, then there is no difference between running this with the full path vs. without the path. If you have a different fsck_hfs installed on your computer, then using the path will (in this case) make sure that it is the one installed in the Apple location that gets executed.

-yprd

These are the flags you set for the command. Or to say it another way, this allows you to tell the command what options you want it to use. To know the meaning of these options, you look at the manual for fsck_hfs, which you can get with the command man fsck_hfs. Run that, and you will see that
/dev/2s3

You should actually use /dev/disk2s3 assuming that your problematic volume is still at that location.

I think that DeltaMac's suggestion of using scavenge mode in DiskWarrior is a better one than continuing to attempt to use fsck_hfs

Trevor

Hi DeltaMac,

<<The items in "man mount" SYNOPSIS are not YOUR drives, but just examples of how the mount command might be organized.>>

Well, that should give you an idea of what I (don't) know...but I am trying. I saw 2 external drives and another drive listed at the top of the Terminal screen and thought those were my drives.

I get it now...Terminal comes equipped with built-in manuals that explain different options and rationales for actions, etc. That's good stuff and I didn't know all that was in there. The challenge for me is that I would have to take a class to understand what it all means (which I might actually do), but for right now, I need some help and suggestions to try to fix an urgent and perplexing problem that may have a savior within Terminal.

<<You can scroll down (using your arrow keys) to show the 2 or 3 more screens of more info about the Mount command options.>>

Thank you for letting me know. The first time I ran "mount man", I apparently only got a partial result which is what I posted above. I just ran it again and got a fuller list of options. Now, having read through all of the interesting information and different options, I have no idea as to what specific command(s) might help me to mount the Mac HD 10.5 volume from the internal drive disk2s3. That's why I think I could really use a cut/paste suggestion or two to try. As mentioned in a post above, the only command I was able to find earlier that looked to be somewhat applicable was "diskutil mount /dev/disk2s3" and that came back telling me the disk was mounted which it was/is not. I'm guessing that command is basically the same thing as clicking the mount button in Disk Utility.

I did read about scavenge mode in the DW manual before I first ran the application, but I'll certainly read the MacWorld article from the link you provided. It was my understanding that the scavenge mode would be useful in retrieving difficult files when the regular rebuild mode was unable to do that. Having DW recover files and rebuild the directories from my internal drive didn't seem to be a problem, but I'll definitely look into that further. Thanks again.

1.) It's my belief that if Disk Warrior can't fix it, then nothing else will--at least, that's been my experience with DW since it first appeared in 1998.

2.) It's also been my experience that while (by definition) an Invalid node structure error represents a software problem, it more often than not indicates an impending hard drive failure. (Although it does occasionally reflect a bad RAM chip.) The negative results from your hardware testing are not absolute indications of the drive being in good health, only that there was no discernible issue at the time of the test. Again in my experience, a drive that fails the hardware test will soon cease to function altogether, likely in a matter of hours, not days, so it's not reliably diagnostic that's it's both passed the tests and remained partially functional until now.

3.) In any event, the only possible cure for a stubborn Invalid node structure's presence which refuses to succumb to DW's suite of services is a full reformat (not erasure) of the drive. You'll be better off, I think, scavenging for retrievable data and transferring it to a reliable storage medium rather than continuing in your attempts to restore the drive to working status. If the drive is failing, it's likely you have a finite--albeit indeterminate--amount of time until it ceases to run altogether. Keeping its spin time to a minimum seems prudent. Besides, if it's not failing, no harm will be done.

4.) If you do succeed in restoring the drive to a working state through a reformat, I would advise you not to trust it.

Hi Trevor,

<<Let's break down the command that someone suggested to you.>>

Thank you very much for your helpful explanation of "/sbin/fsck_hfs -yprd /dev/disk2s3" (which I actually understood). The fsck command suggestion for potential repair of invalid node structure actually came from this post I had read and it seemed potentially viable:
techierambles.blogspot.com/2008/12/repair-disk-errors-like-invalid-node.html

I did run the /sbin/fsck_hfs command and it returned results with a bit more information, but with the same invalid node structure result as the sudo fsck_hfs -r /dev/disk2s3 command I had run earlier:

Janessdba$ sudo /sbin/fsck_hfs -yprd /dev/disk2s3
Password:
/dev/rdisk2s3: starting
** Checking HFS Plus volume.
** Checking Extents Overflow file.
** Checking Catalog file.
** Rebuilding Catalog B-tree.
hfs_UNswap_BTNode: invalid node height (1)
hfs_swap_BTNode: offsets 59 and 60 out of order (0x1F2E, 0x0000)
Invalid node structure
(4, 15924)
** The volume Mac HD 10.5 could not be repaired.
volume type is pure HFS+
primary MDB is at block 0 0x00
alternate MDB is at block 0 0x00
primary VHB is at block 2 0x02
alternate VHB is at block 234179422 0xdf54b5e
sector size = 512 0x200
VolumeObject flags = 0x07
total sectors for volume = 234179424 0xdf54b60
total sectors for embedded volume = 0 0x00

<<I think that DeltaMac's suggestion of using scavenge mode in DiskWarrior is a better one than continuing to attempt to use fsck_hfs>>

I think you and DeltaMac are probably both right. I understand DW scavenge mode and how it might help do a more thorough rebuild, but what I don't understand is how a more complete directory DW rebuild via scavenge mode could be migrated to my damaged drive where the regular DW rebuilt directory/disk could not execute a replacement action. Of course, it's probably worth a try.

I will provide a copy of the DW report from last week and you, DeltaMac, and anyone else can take a look at that to see what DW was already able to do. Again, although the full report indicated a hard drive problem which prevented the "replace" option, Alsoft Tech support advised that it was quite possible that the problem was not hardware related and that notion was (possibly) confirmed by non-problematic hardware tests that were run and the invalid node structure conclusion from the fsck Terminal operations.

Hi Ambrose,

All good points that you have made and thank you for your input.

<<In any event, the only possible cure for a stubborn Invalid node structure's presence which refuses to succumb to DW's suite of services is a full reformat (not erasure) of the drive.>>

Disk Warrior was able to successfully rebuild the directory of my internal drive, but was simply not able to execute the replacement. I am not able to reformat the drive for another several weeks because I am waiting for a set of replacement system disks from Apple (my Leopard disk is cracked and non-accessible) and since I'm running a PPC PowerBook G4, my options are rather limited..

<<You'll be better off, I think, scavenging for retrievable data and transferring it to a reliable storage medium rather than continuing in your attempts to restore the drive to working status.>>

My apps and data are all backed up on another drive...my problem is that my Leopard system on the internal hard drive can't be accessed and I can't get to the apps and files there, so I am in a pickle until the system disks arrive or I can get the internal drive repaired and mounted. I am currently running on Tiger on an external drive that literally has 1.5 GB of available space left.

<<Keeping its spin time to a minimum seems prudent.>>

How would I have any control over spin time if I can't access the drive? It's in an unmounted state.

One reason to limit "spin time":
The hard drive may be approaching end-of-life, so one way to HASTEN that demise is to keep trying new methods to "repair" the existing hard drive, and its directory.

Hi Delta Mac,

<<One reason to limit "spin time":
The hard drive may be approaching end-of-life, so one way to HASTEN that demise is to keep trying new methods to "repair" the existing hard drive, and its directory.>>

This makes good sense, especially since I hadn't thought about repair attempts in terms of putting a hard drive through a workout and affecting its "spin time". The message I had gleaned from my original read about trying a fsck approach to repair a difficult situation was that it made sense to keep trying the fsck command over and over again. One poster said he or she had tried the fsck command around 20 times before it eventually worked...another said it took countless tries for about an hour until the disk was repaired and advised to keep trying. Your comment sounds more logical to me. I think I will only try DiskWarrior in scavenge mode once before I give up and resort to a reformat or reinstall in a couple of weeks.

When I put my ear down to my keyboard near the trackpad over the internal drive, it is very quiet, so maybe that's a good sign. The internal drive that came with this replacement PowerBook may have always had some kind of problem. My impression was that the Leopard OS that had been installed from the computer store's server was never running quite right. I have a temperature monitor in my menubar and I have always found it curious that the Tiger external drive typically produces a temp readout 35-40 degrees cooler than what the internal Leopard drive usually yielded. I'm not sure what this means, but the internal drive was always running around 145 degrees when booted from Leopard (not to mention the constant spinning beachballs, frequent freezes, and just plain slowness overall).

It's true that repeatedly invoking fsck--either from the command line or via Disk Utility--will sometimes repair a seemingly irresolute fault in a drive's HFS logic structure.* Be that as it may, we do not know just how truly successful these repairs were, and I would be willing to bet that in some, if not most, of these cases, the drive subsequently failed after not too much of an interval. As for Disk Warrior's announcement of a successful directory rebuild, the replacement directory exists only in RAM until it is written to disk, which DW is unable to do because of the underlying invalid node error. The event is not a frustrating partial victory; it is a symptom of a more serious problem than a rebuilt directory can relieve.

I would say your internal drive's running temperature is worth some attention. I recall that the Fujitsu 2080AT was the OEM supplied unit for (at least some of) the PB G4s, and from visiting the Fujitsu site just now, I learned that they specify 55°C (about 130°F) as that particular model's maximum operating temperature. Heat is the second biggest killer of electronics (after dirty power), and running 10% over the manufacturer's maximum allowable temperature would definitely result in intermittent episodes of degraded performance, not to mention premature failure.

It may well be you have a different drive, but even if its max spec is for, say, 70°C, you'd still be running on the high side. Considering its vintage, it can hardly be called premature to have a PB G4's drive go bad, but high temperatures certainly didn't do it any good. I'll mention as an aside that I've found external hard drives do run cooler than internal laptop drives, and I assume this has to do with their more spacious enclosures, better ventilation from larger fans, and the absence of heat-producing processors and graphics cards.

It is indeed a good sign that the drive is running quietly, but only in the sense that it's a sign of impending doom when you do hear something. On the three occasions I've heard "the click of death" come from a hard drive, only once before it died did I have enough time to pull off the files that hadn't been included in my most recent backup.

* (It's worth noting that in any case, even for a problem which is apparently resolved on the first attempt, it's essential to continue repeating the repair process until the response indicates not just that the drive was successfully repaired, but that no problems were found. The system is unable to disclose an incomplete repair process, something that is not uncommon, for the good reason that one issue may need to be resolved before another one emerges from hiding and can be dealt with.

Although ambrose has some facts OK, the operating temp is mis-guided, as he presents it.
There's a large difference between the ambient temp, and the temp measured in actual use from the hard drive itself.
If you are booted to ANOTHER hard drive, especially an external, then the internal would normally be infrequently active (if at all) and would not generate much more heat than the rest of the case. When booted to that internal drive, the typical hard drive would be almost continually active, and could get quite warm as a result, depending on brand, model, and age to some degree.
Heat, by itself, has been shown to NOT be a major factor in the lifetime of a hard drive. Google discovered this when evaluating its own server farm for various factors, including heat.

Finally, you repeat a repair process through Disk Utility on the assumption that it continues to approach a repair. One of the ways to see that, is to note if the same items are presented as errors each time.
My plan is to stop if the same errors are presented after running the same repair 3 times. If each repair reports different errors each time, then I continue with more repairs.
It appears that ambrose has not worked in a repair shop. I have probably heard many of the large variety of "death noises" (each manufacturer's drives have distinctive "death noises", which may be clicks, or buzzes, or "musical" tones, or even something close to a siren.) None are good news about the future of that particular hard drive.
And, of course, a hard drive can fail without audible changes to warn the user.

Hi ambrose,

You have again passed along many good points and I appreciate it.

<<As for Disk Warrior's announcement of a successful directory rebuild, the replacement directory exists only in RAM until it is written to disk, which DW is unable to do because of the underlying invalid node error.>>

I understand about the replacement directory's temporary home in RAM and wish that DW gave the option to replace that directory to a different drive. That way, I think I could have done a clean and complete move to my external backup 500 GB Passport drive which has plenty of space available and then, perhaps and somehow, moved that data onto my unmountable internal drive. Even if a scavenge mode run of DW produces a more complete rebuild, I don't understand how that scavenged rebuild would be able to transition to the internal drive when the plain rebuild wasn't able to do that.

<<Considering its vintage, it can hardly be called premature to have a PB G4's drive go bad...>>

It's doubtful that my 120 GB internal hard drive is the original PowerBook drive since those original drives were 80 GB. The internal drive with Leopard installed came as part of a purchase of a replacement PowerBook. The external drive running my PowerBook now is my original drive from my previous PowerBook and it's been running like a champ (albeit very low on available space now). If you're interested in more details about that and haven't already seen it, I posted more details about the saga of my internal drive and the related system problems in my first thread on the Forums here:
http://hintsforums.macworld.com/showthread.php?t=168624

You could make a disk image (DMG file) of the troubled drive onto your external drive and then use DiskWarrior to repair that disk image (it can work with DMG files).

To make a disk image copy of the troubled drive, you can use the command-line program 'ddrescue' - see: http://hintsforums.macworld.com/show...7&postcount=11

Hi DeltaMac,

<<My plan is to stop if the same errors are presented after running the same repair 3 times. If each repair reports different errors each time, then I continue with more repairs.>>

This makes good sense and I did notice that the second, more detailed fsck command produced results that seemed to be progressing with 2 attempts. However, I stopped running the Terminal commands after the words of caution about potential effect on internal hd spinning activity. Like everything else in life, I guess it boils down to risk v. benefit.

<<There's a large difference between the ambient temp, and the temp measured in actual use from the hard drive itself.>>

I run Temperature Monitor, so there are obviously numerous temp sensors all over the place. My point in mentioning temperature was just to present another factor in this problematic equation which may or may not be telling of something meaningful about the troubled internal drive. The observation that's stuck out to me is the relative temp reading difference between the 2 drives and, even taking into account the differential factors relative to internal v. external, the original Tiger 80 GB "Macintosh HD" seemed to run somewhat cooler as an internal drive than the replacement Leopard 120 GB "Mac HD 10.5" (aka "the devil") ever did.

<<(each manufacturer's drives have distinctive "death noises", which may be clicks, or buzzes, or "musical" tones, or even something close to a siren.)>>

Have you ever come across an intermittent high-frequency beep (like something you'd hear coming out of a digital wristwatch alarm)? I recall hearing some of those beeps coming from the replacement PowerBook early on when everything was running well, but I had never heard a sound like that come out of a Mac before...ever. The sound appeared to be originating from the mid-upper left side area of the keyboard and not from the vicinity of the hard drive. I don't mean to veer off-topic, but I'm curious since I've used Macs for many years and have never heard a beep before from any other machine, including my previously departed PowerBook.

PS...I finally got my hands on my last DW report in lieu of running DW again, so I'll post that shortly. Also, still hoping for a good Terminal command to try to mount or force mount the internal drive. Unfortunately, the mount man didn't help me much there and a cut and paste option would be wonderful.

Here's a few examples of the sorts of sounds that you might hear from a failing hard drive: http://datacent.com/hard_drive_sounds.php

There's only two devices that might produce some kind of noise in that upper left area:
The left fan, or the speaker.

The last model of PowerBook G4 (with a DL DVD burner) did come from Apple with a 120GB. Of course, you can check on the data label (inside the battery compartment) which will tell you what the original hardware configuration was...

Hi DeltaMac

<<Here's a few examples of the sorts of sounds that you might hear from a failing hard drive: http://datacent.com/hard_drive_sounds.php>>

Well, that's just plain fascinating...seriously. I enjoyed listening to a few of the examples (as did the dog) and I will go back and listen to them all later. Thanks.

<<There's only two devices that might produce some kind of noise in that upper left area:
The left fan, or the speaker.>>

Ok, that's a bit reassuring that the strange beeps probably aren't hd-related. I thought of a better example of the beep...it was like a high-pitched, lower volume version of the sound you get when you press the numbers on a microwave oven keypad. The beeps almost sounded like they were related to the processor trying to do something, but they were very intermittent. All I know is that when the internal drive was mounted and working, the beeps were there and with my external drive running the show, the beeps are pretty much gone.

<<The last model of PowerBook G4 (with a DL DVD burner) did come from Apple with a 120GB>>

I did not know that, so maybe the funky internal drive is the original. The PB doesn't look like it has ever been opened up, so maybe that's a good explanation. I'll check the battery compartment later.

Thanks for the info....

Hi hayne,

Thanks for directing me to your post about creating a .dmg from Terminal. That may offer me a good workaround for the problematic internal drive and DW. I subsequently looked at Disk Utility and that does give me the option of creating an image of the internal, unmounted drive and depositing that to my larger external drive. Plus, I'd probably feel more comfortable doing that with DU (unless Terminal would offer a better alternative for reasons which I'm not aware of).

1. Can you or someone else advise about whether I would choose the option of compressed, read/write, or DVD/CD master? I think it would probably be read/write, but I'm really not sure.

2. Would the .dmg go directly into my external drive as is, or would a partition have to be created.

3. So, I'm guessing that once a .dmg of the internal drive is on my external drive, Disk Warrior would give me the option of just rebuilding that disk image on the external drive and not the entire contents of the backup drive. Is that right?

If disk space is a consideration for any of this, here's that info:

1. 120 GB internal HD (Mac HD 10.5): approximately 85 GB used as I remember (no way for me to check in its unmounted state)
2. 80 GB external HD (Macintosh HD): just under 3 GB available now and this is my startup disk running Tiger
3. 500 GB external HD (My Passport Studio): 323 GB available and this drive contains my only backup contents of the Mac HD 10.5 and the Macintosh HD and is not currently set up to be bootable.

1) I've never done it with Disk Utility, but I'd go for whatever seems the most generic. Definitely not compressed or anything related to DVD/CD.

2) A DMG file is just a file and will be of the size of your source drive (total size not the size that is used). DiskWarrior will work on that DMG file - ignoring the rest of the files on your external drive. But I would be a bit nervous about doing *anything* on the disk that contained my only backup.

Hi hayne,

Thanks very much for getting back to me...

<<1) I've never done it with Disk Utility, but I'd go for whatever seems the most generic. Definitely not compressed or anything related to DVD/CD.>>

By "generic", I'm assuming you mean the most simple and basic approach. If so, DU looks very straightforward to me. I'd just choose read/write with no encryption and with my 500 GB external drive as the destination, then click "save".

<<2) A DMG file is just a file and will be of the size of your source drive (total size not the size that is used). DiskWarrior will work on that DMG file - ignoring the rest of the files on your external drive. But I would be a bit nervous about doing *anything* on the disk that contained my only backup.>>

I eventually figured out that, by going to the DW menu under File, I am given the option of "Rebuild Disk Image", so I answered my question #3 above and am good to go there. As far as my backup drive is concerned, I have been very hesitant and cautious about doing anything unnecessarily interruptive or invasive there. That is why I have been trying to approach a solution to my problem of trying to mount and repair my internal drive via some possible Terminal/fsck options.

I've still not been able to find a good fsck command to try to mount or force mount the internal drive, so any ideas there would be appreciated. I've read through "man mount" and it is like trying to read Greek for me. I've also read through the Forums here and elsewhere online and can't seem to determine what command(s) might possibly be the best to try for my situation.

Some weirdness in the mounting department is that, when I've started my PowerBook with the Tiger system disk and the "C" key and then gone to Disk Utility, the internal drive (Mac HD 10.5) shows up as a mounted volume, with the correct hd icon, etc., but cannot be repaired. However, booted from my external drive, the internal drive shows up as not mounted and won't mount. Other than what I've mentioned about Owners Enabled switching to "No" at some point, that just seems bizarre.

Before I move forward with the DMG process with DW, I'll post below the last DW results which Trevor had requested and, perhaps, someone will be able to pick up something there that would help guide me forward. Thank you again.

The requested report from my run of DiskWarrior last week is provided below. Any input related to the results would be greatly appreciated, especially in terms of: 1) whether running DW in scavenge mode might produce a more favorable outcome for the possibility of replacement onto my internal hard drive (either directly working with the existing internal drive or by creating a DMG of that drive on my external backup drive) and 2) if the results below would indicate that the "invalid node structure" error I've been getting via repair attempts is resolved by DW.

I did discuss the DW results with a Tech person at Alsoft who indicated the problem may not actually be a mechanical malfunction and said that it might be possible to manually move the folders onto the internal hard drive. I can't do that because the hard drive won't mount. Alternatively, the possibility was mentioned to try the Restore process in DU with the rebuilt DW disk as the source (which, I think, is what would be done using the DMG process that was mentioned above).

Thank you very much to anyone for taking a look and possibly being able to offer any words of wisdom...


DiskWarrior has successfully built a new directory for the disk named "Mac HD 10.5." The new directory cannot replace the original directory because of a disk malfunction.

A disk malfunction is a failure of or damage to any mechanical component of the disk device, or any component connected to it. The malfunction will likely worsen. Therefore, recovering your files from the DiskWarrior Preview as quickly as possible is essential.

It is highly recommended that you backup all of your data from the preview disk.

The original directory is damaged and it was necessary to scavenge the directory to find file and folder data.

Some files that had been lost or thrown away may have been recovered.

Comparison of the original and replacement directories could not be performed because the original directory was too severely damaged. It is recommended that you preview the replacement directory.

• All errors in the directory structure such as tree depth, header node, map nodes, node size, node counts, node links, indexes and more have been repaired.

• 18 files had to be recovered. The files may have been lost or thrown away. You must inspect the files to determine the extent of any damage. You must also determine whether the files should be discarded.

• 1 file had a directory entry with an incorrect text encoding value that was repaired.

• 2 files had a duplicate name that was repaired.

• 6 files had an oversized thread that was repaired.

• 2,495 missing folders had to be recreated.

• 294 folders had a duplicate name that was repaired.

• 1 folder had an oversized thread that was repaired.

• 5,868 folders had an incorrect item count that was repaired.

• 25 folders had a directory entry with an incorrect custom icon flag that was repaired.

• 590 files/folders had to be moved to the "Rescued Items" folder.

• Incorrect values in the Volume Information were repaired.

• Critical values in the Volume Information were incorrect and were repaired.

Disk Information:

Files: 587,154

Folders: 159,858

Free Space: 27.51 GB

Format: Mac OS Extended

Block Size: 4 K

Disk Sectors: 234,179,424

Media: ST9120821A

Time: 2/11/13 10:20:23 AM

Ah, well, your hard drive is failing (or the directory structure, or the hard drive blocks, etc)
You can copy out to another drive, directly from DW's Preview disk, which will give you access to files that you don't have backed up somewhere else...

2 items (among others) from the DW log interest me:
and
Lots of "lost" files there.
Whatever happened to cause that, likely also resulted in your "mounting" problem.
Finally: Didn't you already say that your important files are ALREADY backed up?

With the information as presented by Disk Warrior, I think you can now safely say that the hard drive mounting problem that you have is due to hardware problems in the hard drive. That MAY be soft-repairable, with a re-partition (but that might not help, either)
I'll go out on a limb here, and say that you won't have any other remedy, and your (BEST, maybe only) choice is to replace your hard drive with a good one.

Hi DeltaMac,

Thank you very much for the diagnosis you provided from my DW report and for your related comments and questions. I apologize for the delay in responding...I was called out of town over the past week and was without my PowerBook.

I think it's now clear that there is no solution for my problem via Terminal/fsck commands which is what this thread was originally about. Still, I could really use some guidance regarding next steps, with the objective being to try anything (short of replacing the internal drive) that will help to get Leopard up and running on my internal drive and to preserve my applications, settings, etc. Rather than start (or find) another thread to address a system reinstall on my troubled, unmounted internal drive, I'll address your input and leave a few questions here for now. So, first off, related to the comments you left...

<<Ah, well, your hard drive is failing (or the directory structure, or the hard drive blocks, etc>>

Well, I hope the problem is software-related. This reminds me of a chicken/egg thing...did a bad drive cause the system to fail or did a system malfunction (or bad install from the retail store) cause a problem with the hardware)? I don't know what the answer is, but I think this matters because it will be far less costly to initially try a software-related remedy, short of replacing the internal drive. There has been no hardware test that has indicated a hardware problem. Also, there are currently no noises whatsoever from the internal drive. By the way, I listened to all of the failing hd sound examples you linked me to and none of the samples with beeps sounded anything like the ones I had heard on my PowerBook when the Leopard internal drive was working as the startup drive.

<<You can copy out to another drive, directly from DW's Preview disk...>>

I'm not sure how your suggestion of "copy out to another drive" would be done, but if I wanted to try a data/directory replacement from a DW Preview Disk moved as a .dmg to my external drive, would I use the "Restore" function from DU or is there another way? I obviously can't try to drag and copy anything since my internal drive is unmounted and not accessible.

<<Lots of "lost" files there>>

Having never had to use DW before, I have no reference point as to the load of folders/files that ended up in "Rescued/Recovered Items", but it sounds like you think I had a lot. If DW can do a replacement, what does it do with those rescued folders? Do the correct folders just simply get replaced, in which case the rescued items could then be deleted?

<<Didn't you already say that your important files are ALREADY backed up?>>

Yes, that was the first thing I did after I purchased my WD external drive and before I had a problem. I think I had copied most everything to my Passport Studio external backup. In hindsight, and because I didn't know any better, the mistake I made was not immediately making that external drive bootable by creating a separate partition with the Leopard system.

<<That MAY be soft-repairable, with a re-partition (but that might not help, either)>>

Well, assuming the problem is soft-repairable, is a re-partition the only option? I think that means I would have to erase the entire internal hard drive. I also think I had mentioned previously that I don't understand fully how to partition, having never done that before. Not that it's a difficult thing to do, but I still would like to maintain the integrity of the data on the internal drive if at all possible. I think I understand, that to create a new partition on a drive, the other contents on that drive get erased in the process. Is that true? Also, when I start my PowerBook from the Tiger system disk, the unmounted internal drive shows up with the appropriate icon as being mounted. Wouldn't that indicate that the internal drive problem is more software-related than a hardware failure?

<<...your (BEST, maybe only) choice is to replace your hard drive with a good one.>>

Well, that's not a comforting thought after all of the money I've dished out on the replacement PowerBook loaded with Leopard, DiskWarrior, and the WD external backup drive. Truly, other than my
Poltergeist internal drive being tucked safely inside the PowerBook and not dangling like my two externals, I care far more about not being to access Leopard. I'm limping along here, without being able to access and do many things that are tied to Leopard. Anyway...

Since my replacement Leopard system disk(s) should arrive soon from Apple, just a few questions related to possible solutions short of getting a new internal drive right now:

1) Did the DW report you reviewed indicate that the DW rebuild solved the "invalid node structure" problem indicated by my runs of DU and the Terminal fsck commands?

2) Since I will soon have Leopard system disks to work with, do you think the DW approach would even be worth a try with a DMG of the internal drive going onto the Passport backup and then being copied to the internal drive?

3) If the DW rebuilt preview disk can't be moved to the current, unmounted internal drive, can a DW rebuilt disk be copied to an erased and re-partitioned hard drive? I'm guessing only the rebuilt and repaired directories get replaced and not the entire system, so that probably wouldn't work, right?

4) Do you think an archive and install or complete reinstall of Leopard might be effective and/or worth a try before replacing the internal drive (and instead of trying to do anything with DW)?

5) Is it possible to do an archive and install on an unmountable internal drive or is a complete erase, re-partition, and install the only option in the case where a drive is in an unmounted state?

6) When I ordered the replacement system disks from Apple, the tech person wasn't sure if the disks would have Leopard 10.5.1 or 10.5.6. Either way, since my internal drive is currently loaded with Leopard 10.5.8 from the retail store's server and everything appears to be there from what I can see on the DW preview, is an archive and install procedure possible from an earlier version of Leopard? Meaning...could I try an archive and install from 10.5.1/10.5.6 and then apply Apple's 10.5.8 combo updater?

In summary, it seems that solving my internal drive problem will involve:

1. No remedy via Terminal/fsck.
2. Possible remedy from DW rebuilt DMG being moved from the external drive to the internal drive (although probably not worth a try).
3. Potential remedy from an archive and install from the Leopard system disk.
4. More likely remedy from erase/re-partition of internal drive and fresh install of Leopard if the internal drive is not in a state of serious hardware failure.
5. Definite remedy from replacement of internal drive and totally clean install of Leopard.

Apologies for all of the questions, but in the many years I've been working on Macs, I have never had a major problem or had to do a system (re)install, worked with Terminal/fsck, or done anything with partitioning a disk. I really appreciate any input because I am trying to be very careful and don't want to make a bad situation any worse. Thank you...

1) (DW solved?) Yes, the problem is solved - however, DW cannot replace the directory, so the issue remains. "solved", but not fixed. That's - not good...
2,3,4 and possibly 5) DW has the Preview Image - which SHOULD mount. That image is not on your unmounted hard drive, but is a virtual image, with the repaired directory - and DW can't use that to replace the existing directory on your hard drive (probably for the same hardware fault that it won't allow it to mount.)
You COULD, with the Preview Image, drag copy from the preview, to ANOTHER hard drive, any files that will copy. That copy process can sometimes take a long time. I have seen some take several days to finish.
6) The last full installer for Leopard is 10.5.6. I would expect that is what you will get. The ONLY method that you can use, and try to maintain your existing files on your hard drive - is the Archive & Install option. That will take your installed version back to 10.5.6 (or an older version, depending on the version of the OS X installer.), and - yes, you would just reinstall the 10.5.8 combined installer (plus running Software Update to get all the other updates that would be available)

Some folks have never had a hard drive fail, but I'm pretty sure (without actually touching it) that this is one.
My feeling is, that you will not fix the hard drive.
The main reason that I say that, is that DW reports

Hi DeltaMac,

<<The ONLY method that you can use, and try to maintain your existing files on your hard drive - is the Archive & Install option.>>

Well, I've been busy the past few days with data transfer and have some updated information which I've taken to another thread since my issues are no longer Terminal/fsck-related. I hope you'll be able to stop by and take a look. Your input has been extremely helpful and very much appreciated. There may be other options based upon what I've been able to do...or not.

<<Some folks have never had a hard drive fail, but I'm pretty sure (without actually touching it) that this is one.>>

How would you diagnose or determine a hard drive failure by touching it? Do you mean that you would actually remove a hard drive and do some specific testing or look for something visually?

I don't mean "touching" so there's fingerprints, eh?
I mean that your symptoms sound like those typical of a very questionable hard drive, and all I can do is say that because of those symptoms, I expect you are unlikely to succeed until you get a different hard drive installed. I might be wrong, as a full erase (with a one-pass write zeroes to the hard drive format) may get the hard drive working properly again (or won't help :D )

Success Mounting Internal Drive Via Terminal, but...
 

I'm posting back on this thread because I was able to get my internal hard drive mounted on my desktop with several Terminal commands. My mounting problem seems to be mostly solved, but I could still use a bit of direction with Terminal to get a few remaining glitches worked out and to determine if I really do need a new internal drive in order to install Leopard.

Most recently, and up to this point, I tried every which way to erase my unmounted, internal drive in Disk Utility. I got every error message possible. Even trying to repartition and reformat wouldn't work. I couldn't use the Restore function because the unmounted, greyed out disk wouldn't move into the destination area. I did call around and check online about getting a new internal drive, but the one I found is on backorder for 21 days. I do have my Leopard startup disks now, but have no way to install the system on an internal drive. Just a side note on internal ATA-100 drives for PowerBooks...suffice it to say availability and cost are an issue. The only thing a local computer store had in stock for a PB was a 40GB internal drive for $70 (I'm guessing that's not going to be flying off the store shelf any time soon).

For some odd reason (and realizing I was, again, pretty much stuck in limbo for several weeks without a replacement internal drive), I decided to put some of my Terminal and Disk Utility error messages into Google. One of the things I found was an Apple Support Document which offered several Terminal commands to mount a disk as read only. Here's the document http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23941 and here's what I tried that worked:

mkdir /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5a
sudo mount -t hfs -o rdonly /dev/disk2s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5a
disktool -r

After I typed in "disktool -r", the Terminal screen said "Refreshing Disk Arbitration ..." and then BOOM----my internal drive suddenly appeared on my desktop with the appropriate hd icon and all of the contents intact. Incidentally, I temporarily renamed my internal drive "Mac HD 10.5a" to be able to differentiate it from the DiskWarrior preview disk (named Mac HD 10.5) which is also on my desktop and in my /Volumes folder.

So, here's where I'm at now:
1. When I restarted my PowerBook after the successful mount, the mounted internal drive disappeared from the desktop and was not in the /Volumes folder, but I was able to mount it again with the Terminal commands above. I also ran DiskWarrior again and it quickly rebuilt a Preview Disk with everything in the right place.
2.While the disk is mounted and showing up correctly on my desktop and in my finder windows, it is not showing up at all in Disk Utility. DU is still showing the internal volume as "disk2s3" which is unmounted and is greyed out with the generic disk icon. Actually, after the last restart, the internal disk showed up as "disk0s3" and "disk2s3" got assigned to my WD My Passport external backup drive.
3. Since the mounted, internal drive is not showing up in DU, of course, I can't erase or reformat it to install Leopard or use Restore with the DW preview disk.
4. In addition, the internal drive is not showing up as an option in Carbon Copy Cloner, so I can't move things over from my Passport external drive. I can't manually move things over either because the internal drive is now read only. The "Get Info" box shows the permissions option greyed out and there is a little crossed-out pencil in the lower left hand corner of the finder window when I open the internal drive.

I have to believe (hope) there is a way to 1) mount the internal drive as read/write and also keep the internal drive mounted after a reboot and 2) get the mounted, internal drive to show up properly in Disk Utility and CCC. I've found several Terminal possibilities to try, but thought it would be best to first try to get some input from the smart folks here. If it helps at all, I ran " ls -alo /Volumes" in Terminal and got the results below. For clarification, my internal drive is now "Mac HD 10.5a" and the DiskWarrior Preview Disk is "Mac HD 10.5". If a comparison is needed from when my internal drive was not mounted at all, that Terminal data is shown in Post #1 of my first thread (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/showthread.php?t=168624). Here's what I got this morning:

Last login: Mon Mar 11 06:20:56 on ttyp2
Welcome to Darwin!
c-xx-xxx-x-xxx:~ Janessdba$ ls -alo /Volumes
total 32
drwxrwxrwt 9 root admin - 306 Mar 11 06:34 .
drwxrwxr-t 43 root admin - 1564 Mar 11 01:50 ..
-rw-rw-rw- 1 Janessdb admin - 6148 Mar 11 06:13 .DS_Store
-rwxrwxrwx 1 Janessdb Janessdb - 82 Dec 27 2005 ._ANDY SASAS'
drwxrwxr-t 46 root admin - 1598 Jan 20 02:36 Mac HD 10.5
drwxrwxr-t 45 root admin - 1564 Jan 20 02:36 Mac HD 10.5a
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin - 1 Mar 11 01:50 Macintosh HD -> /
drwxrwxr-t 41 root admin - 1496 Mar 10 13:25 My Passport Studio
drwxr-xr-x 2 Janessdb admin - 68 Mar 11 06:03 disk0s3
c-xx-xxx-x-xxx:~ Janessdba$ id
uid=501(Janessdba) gid=501(Janessdba) groups=501(Janessdba), 81(appserveradm), 79(appserverusr), 80(admin)
c-xx-xxx-x-xxx:~ Janessdba$ echo "done"

So, any help at all in terms of interpreting the results above and trying something in Terminal to change the internal drive to read/write would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and, hopefully, the information here will perhaps help some other folks if they ever have trouble with a disk that won't mount.

Some compatible drives available online today: (By the way, you don't specifically need ATA-100, you can use ATA-133 as well, for example.)

Samsung 160 GB ATA-100 2.5"
Seagate 100 GB PATA 2.5"
Seagate 120 GB ATA-100 2.5"
Western Digital 80 GB PATA
Mercury Legacy Pro 2.5" ATA SSDs (Solid State Drives)

Trevor

You're running Leopard, OS X 10.5.x, right? For Leopard and later versions of OS X, we need to see

ls -alOe

The version you saw on an old forum post, ls -alo is for Tiger and previous. Beginning with Leopard, the O must be uppercase and we should see -e as well, in order to see if any ACL (access control list) is causing problems.

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly and also for providing the HD info.

1. Regarding a new internal drive (if I do actually need one), I had sort of settled on a WD 160 GB (WD1600BEVE). I found that drive for between $90-$129, but both places were backordered. My current internal drive is 120 GB, so I don't want to go smaller than that. I have seen a few things about issues/problems people have had with WD internal drives, but I don't know how much merit there is to those drives being more problematic than other brands. I'll look further into the helpful links you provided.

2. As for my OS situation...
My current bootable drive is my external drive (Macintosh HD) which is running Tiger 10.4.8. So, I think the " ls -alo /Volumes" command was the right one to run. When I bought this used PowerBook, I paid extra for Leopard and the store loaded 10.5.8 from its server onto the internal drive named Mac HD 10.5 (and currently renamed Mac HD 10.5a for the reasons I explained above). The system disks I have from Apple contain 10.5.6, but I can't install that system on the current internal drive because it became unmounted after a computer freeze and, now that it is mounted, the internal drive is read-only. So, no, I'm not currently running Leopard which is what I am trying to accomplish after I solve the problems I've described.

Given this information, do you still want me to run "ls -alOe" or is there something else that will give you the ACL info or anything else you might need or find useful to know? Also, would the Tiger version of Disk Utility that I've been using to try to work on the internal drive with Leopard 10.5.8 be causing or not solving any of the problems? I think I remember reading something where you can't repair OS-related problems with DU that runs on an earlier OS than the OS on the drive you're trying to repair.

System disk(s)?. For 10.5? The installer is a DVD, and AFAIK, is a single DVD, unless you purchased more than one copy?

Installing 10.5 means that you would be booting to that installer DVD, and any "mount" action would be reset, because your Mac would restart. OS X 10.5.6 is the latest (and last) version of the full install for Leopard. You would run Software Update on the installed 10.5.6 to get that version up to 10.5.8

So, the question NOW is:
What is the result when you boot to that Leopard installer? Does it allow you to select your internal drive? If it does, try the install using the Option to Archive & Install first. If that doesn't work, or reports an error - what is the error?
You can also try the Option to Erase & Install (probably your best choice to get the hard drive back in working order)

In my opinion, Western Digital is a good and mostly inexpensive brand of hard drive. I would personally trust a WD drive today just as much as any of the drive brands I linked to above. A Seagate drive might be a bit faster, but it also might run a bit hotter. YMMV.

Ah, I had forgotten exactly which OS version you were using, and I noted the name of your drive seemed to indicate Leopard. Since you're on Tiger, then ls -alo /Volumes is absolutely the correct command.

Trevor

Hi DeltaMac,

<<System disk(s)?. For 10.5? The installer is a DVD, and AFAIK, is a single DVD, unless you purchased more than one copy?>>

I did receive 2 disks...one installer DVD that includes the "Install Mac OS X" app, a package that says "DVD or CD Sharing Setup" (and I have no clue what that is), a folder with Optional Installs that includes an "Optional Installs" package and a folder with Xcode Tools (again, no clue), and a folder with Instructions. The second disk is some kind of Apple promo thing (garbage) about iPads, iPhones, iTunes Store, etc. So, you're right...the Leopard system disk is one disk even though I referred to the plural. (I had to look up "AFAIK"...I thought it was some kind of DVD extra or technical tool...hahaha).

<<Installing 10.5 means that you would be booting to that installer DVD, and any "mount" action would be reset, because your Mac would restart. OS X 10.5.6 is the latest (and last) version of the full install for Leopard. You would run Software Update on the installed 10.5.6 to get that version up to 10.5.8>>

I get this, but the problem is that, when the PB restarts, the internal drive disappears so there is no internal drive for Leopard to install to. That's what I'm trying to fix. I need to figure out:

1. How to now change the mounted, internal drive from read-only to read/write to see if I can move the good contents from the external Passport or the DW preview disk. If I can do that, I don't even need to reinstall Leopard from the DVD immediately. Then, when I have a bit more time, I can go ahead and install Leopard from the DVD, even if I need to (or should) erase and reformat the internal drive first. Does that make sense or am I mistaken? Most important, I really need to find out if my current internal disk will work before I fork out $$$ for a new internal drive that I may not need.
2. How to do something via Terminal that will stop the internal drive from disappearing after I reboot.
3. How to get the internal drive to be recognized by Disk Utility.

<<So, the question NOW is:
What is the result when you boot to that Leopard installer? Does it allow you to select your internal drive?>>

Answered above, I think.

Hi trevor,

<<Since you're on Tiger, then ls -alo /Volumes is absolutely the correct command.>>

So, I'm not sure about what I can do next via Terminal to try to possibly get the internal drive to change from read-only to read/write and to behave properly related to reboot and Disk Utility. For what it's worth (or not), here's one of the Terminal commands I found that seemed to have something to do with trying to (re)mount a read-only drive as read/write;

sudo mount -o remount,rw /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5a

I can't find the link right now to the article I had read, but I think the command had something to do with trying to remount an external device. I stuck in my own drive information, but I haven't a clue what the command above would or wouldn't do in my particular situation. The command looks fairly straightforward, but I have no idea what the "-o" would relate to. Do you think the command above would work or is there something else to try? Is there anything else I can do in Terminal to produce some results that would provide more useful information for you?

Thanks again for the HD info...the WD external FW drive I've been using has been working flawlessly, so I don't know why the WD internals would behave any differently.

If it helps at all, here are 2 screen caps that show the difference between what I'm seeing in the Disk Utility finder window versus the drives that appear on my desktop.

And, of course, your Mac HD 10.5a does not appear anywhere.
The item "disk2s3" is that disk, I suppose.
And, showing only the hardware designation doesn't say much good about that hard drive.

What happens when you boot to your Leopard installer, then open Disk Utility, select that device (111.8 GB ST9120821A) Select that line, and not the "disk2s3" line. Click the Partition tab, choose anything under Volume Scheme dropdown, then click the Apply button. That will wipe everything off that drive (and you said you already have everything that you want backed up, so that's OK to do, right?). If successful, that should give you a good, mounted partition, and you can continue with an install of Leopard.
Or, it will fail the partition, with a nice error - and then you continue on with replacing the hard drive (it's no use beating a dead horse :D - or banging your head against the wall... ) You've tried virtually everything you could reasonably try. Time to move on.

Hi DeltaMac,

<<And, of course, your Mac HD 10.5a does not appear anywhere.>>

I'm assuming you mean that the Mac HD 10.5a internal drive doesn't show up in Disk Utility which is correct. The fourth drive (the blue one) named "Mac HD 10.5" in my desktop image above is the (now) mounted, problematic internal drive. The grey drive above that with the magnifying glass (also named "Mac HD 10.5") is the DiskWarrior preview (which, I'm sure, you already know). The folder in /Volumes corresponding to the internal drive was named "Mac HD 10.5a" to differentiate it from the DW mount point folder in /Volumes which shows up in the /Volumes folder as "Mac HD 10.5". Also in the /Volumes folder is an empty folder for "disk0s3" (screen cap provided). The point (and potential problem) is that the mounted internal drive does not show up in Disk Utility which may or may not be a hardware issue, as much as that might be another problem potentially related to something that is not set right in permissions/path etc.

<<The item "disk2s3" is that disk, I suppose.>>

Yes, "disk2s3" in the screen cap corresponds to the internal Mac HD 10.5. The similar disk/volume below that one belongs to DiskWarrior. For what it's worth, after I rebooted the PB, that "disk2s3" disk changed to "disk0s3" and "disk2s3" got reassigned to the Passport drive.

<<What happens when you boot to your Leopard installer, then open Disk Utility, select that device (111.8 GB ST9120821A) Select that line, and not the "disk2s3" line. Click the Partition tab, choose anything under Volume Scheme dropdown, then click the Apply button. That will wipe everything off that drive (and you said you already have everything that you want backed up, so that's OK to do, right?). If successful, that should give you a good, mounted partition, and you can continue with an install of Leopard. >>

I tried to do all of the above many times over this past weekend before I was finally able to get the drive mounted and I kept getting a variety of error messages. I copied a bunch of those errors (including errors in the log from DU) and would be happy to post those errors over on my thread related to Leopard installation if you're interested. I would imagine I'd get the same results now even though the internal drive is mounted. The grey, generic disk (111.8 GB ST9120821A) has just not been receptive to being erased, repartioned, or reformatted. It behaves as if it's locked.

<<(it's no use beating a dead horse - or banging your head against the wall... ) You've tried virtually everything you could reasonably try.>>

I realize there's no use in beating a dead horse (or a dead drive) and that's really not what I'm trying to do here. I had the opportunity to review the details of my drive problem with several Mac-savvy people when I was phoning around to inquire about purchasing a new internal drive. Each person said the same thing...that it sounded like I had some kind of weird permissions/ACL/root/path problem that might be easily corrected through Terminal before I invested in a new internal drive.

The internal drive is making no unusual noise at all, all my data is still on the drive, and all hardware tests have indicated that the drive does not have a problem. That's not to say that a new internal drive wouldn't immediately solve the problem, but it certainly makes sense to try some Terminal commands to try to set the internal drive correctly. The collective recommendation was to find a knowledgeable Terminal resource for some possible restorative commands....and that's why I came back here and why I'm not sure that I have tried everything yet. There are clearly some really, really smart and talented Terminal people here and I'm obviously not one of them. In other words, if one or more Terminal commands could help me to make my internal disk read/wirite so I could do the things you've suggested, I would not have to purchase a new internal drive right now. I'm just not yet convinced that my internal drive is toast since it's now mounted with all of its contents and, at least, readable.

In addition to trying some Terminal options, several of those Mac tech people also mentioned trying something with TestDisk or TechTool Pro to get further info/fix something, but I'm not sure what to do about that. I do have a TechTool Pro disk somewhere, but I know nothing about TestDisk.

If there are truly no Terminal options to try, then I will certainly move on to a new internal drive (which, unfortunately, would involve the cost of the new drive plus $100-$125 quoted to install). Clearly, if there's a Terminal fix, that would obviously be preferable.

I do understand and appreciate what you're saying and thanks again for all of the helpful advice and input you've provided to me.

I was finally able to get my internal hard drive, not only mounted, but now properly showing up as a mounted and accessible volume in Disk Utility (lots of Terminal trial and error along the way). As previously mentioned, the internal drive mounted on the desktop as read-only using the commands I specified in Post #41 above. If I can get the internal drive to mount as read-write, I will finally be able to either transfer data via DiskWarrior/Carbon Copy Cloner and/or do a Leopard reinstall (including the ability now to be able to erase/repartition/restore that internal volume in Disk Utility, if needed). The drive seems fine now, but I can only read it.

Here's the disk info as it looks now (including the fact that the "Owners Enabled" parameter is now changed back to "Yes"). Even though the description indicates the volume is writable, the disk was definitely set to read-only from the commands I used to get the drive mounted. Maybe that just means that the drive is writable if permissions are set to read-write.

Disk Identifier : disk0s3
Mount Point : /Volumes/Mac HD 10.5
File System : Mac OS Extended
Connection Bus : ATA
Partition Type : Apple_HFS
Device Tree : pci2/ata-6@D/@0:3
Writable : Yes
Capacity : 111.7 GB (119,899,865,088 Bytes)
Free Space : 26.9 GB (28,865,929,216 Bytes)
Used : 84.8 GB (91,033,935,872 Bytes)
Number of Files : 615,081
Number of Folders : 165,194
Owners Enabled : Yes
Can Turn Owners Off : Yes
Can Repair Permissions : Yes
Can Be Verified : Yes
Can Be Repaired : Yes
Can Be Formatted : Yes
Bootable : Yes
Supports Journaling : Yes
Journaled : No
S.M.A.R.T. Status : Verified
Disk Number : 0
Partition Number : 3


The Terminal command I used to successfully mount the internal drive was this:
sudo mount -t hfs -o rdonly /dev/disk0s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5


Logic would tell me that this command would mount the drive as read-write:
sudo mount -t hfs -o rdwr /dev/disk0s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5

So, here are a couple of questions....

1. Would changing the "rdonly" to "rdwr" in the command above be the correct thing to try and would there be any harm in trying to reset the permissions for the entire volume by doing this?
2. If that command change is not correct, would there be another suggestion?

Any input about this would be greatly appreciated...thanks.

Only two questions:
Does Disk Utility/Repair Disk complete successfully now?
Does Disk Warrior complete without reporting a hardware malfunction?

Either question should help you understand if the hard drive is good, or not good.

Hi DeltaMac,

I ran Disk Utility and it still reported an invalid node structure which make sense because the same directory damage remains on the disk. However, DU looked like it was going through the repair process, but I didn't want to take a chance, so I stopped it. DU was able to run repair permissions. Disk Warrior did not report disk damage like it did before, but I didn't go further because the internal drive is locked now as read-only. I want to make the drive read-write so I can then do a transfer from the rebuilt directory from DW or do other things from within DU. I tried some other obscure Terminal command to change the drive to read-write, but Terminal began to change permissions on over 600K individual files and it looked like that process was going to take about a week. Hence, my question on the possible command above which seems like it would be a more direct method. So, I hope someone will get back to me about that question. In the meantime, I've left a few questions about the Leopard reinstall and backup options on the specific Leopard thread (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/newr...reply&t=168784), so maybe you could take a look at that?

I think I'm really close to figuring out a solution, so thanks for your help. Certainly, if I hit a glitch with these last few steps, I'll get a new drive. However, it would seem silly to invest in a new internal drive if I really don't need that.

I desperately need to try to remount my internal hard drive as read-write (currently read-only with a crossed-out pencil icon in the finder folder). I could really, really use some input and advice from the Terminal command gurus here. Over the past few days, I've searched high and low about how to change a volume from read-only to read-write and have found many different variations of suggested Terminal command lines (mostly through Apple support docs and Unix textbooks). Although I have become more familiar with what command lines mean and what they can do, I really do not understand what to try and what to stay away from.

Below are 10 examples of command lines that fall into the areas of 1) mounting a volume as read-write after the status had been read-only or 2) remounting an already mounted read-only hard drive to become read-write. If anyone here can help, would it be possible to get an idea from the list below which command lines I might safely try and in what order and which command lines to stay away from because they are not applicable or might damage the data on my internal drive? I've entered in my particular disk and hard drive information in the commands below. I would sincerely appreciate any advice, so thank you...


1. sudo mount -t hfs -o_rdwr /dev/disk0s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
2. sudo mount -t hfs -o rdwr /dev/disk0s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
3. sudo mount -o remount,rw /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
4. sudo mount -t hfsplus /dev/disk0s03 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
5. sudo mount –t hfs /dev/disk0s3 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
6. sudo mount /dev/disk0s03 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
7. sudo mount -uw /dev/disk0s03 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
8. sudo mount -u -w /dev/disk /disk0s03 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
9. sudo mount -t hfsplus -o force,rw /dev/disk0s03 /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5
10. sudo mount -t hfsplus -o remount,force,rw /Volumes/Mac\ HD\ 10.5

Additionally, if it helps further, below is recent volume information which shows privileges. The WD Passport external is read-write, while the Mac HD 10.5 is read-only, yet both drives show the same privileges. I don't understand that, but for what it's worth:

Last login: Wed Mar 20 09:07:16 on ttyp3
Welcome to Darwin!
c-xx-xxx-x-xxx:~ Janessdba$ ls -al /Volumes/
total 32
drwxrwxrwt 8 root admin 272 Mar 17 21:47 .
drwxrwxr-t 43 root admin 1564 Mar 16 18:54 ..
-rw-rw-rw- 1 Janessdb admin 6148 Mar 16 17:07 .DS_Store
-rwxrwxrwx 1 Janessdb Janessdb 82 Dec 27 2005 ._ANDY SASAS'
drwxrwxr-t 45 root admin 1564 Jan 20 02:36 Mac HD 10.5
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 1 Mar 16 18:54 Macintosh HD -> /
drwxrwxr-t 41 root admin 1496 Mar 10 13:25 My Passport Studio