IMAP and nested mailboxes
 

I'm the same guy with the Lion Mail.app problems..

Getting T-bird set up in Lion and noticed it won't show me all my mailboxes, and I guess, mail.

I have a "Friends and family" mail box set up in Snow Leopard Mail. Inside that, is a mailbox for each person..I have maybe 12 folders inside of friends and family.

Snow Mail shows 'em all. Web mail only shows 2. Thunderbird only shows 2.

Is there something bad or illegal about these nested folders? Can I do things in OS X Mail.app that I ought NOT to do?

This email thing is snorking down huge amounts of time and I just don't know how to solve it.

thanks for any hints, or full-on answers!

A

:(

I'd say your first move is to backup your 10.6 mail. Go to ~/Library/Mail and copy the appropriate folder for the account to the Desktop. This way, in the event something becomes (more) askew while resolving this, you know there's a copy you cant restore. After that, here's the first thing I would try: In Mail, use Mailbox > Synchronize to select your account. It's possible that somehow what's in 10.6 isn't properly synced to the server. If that doesn't solve things, I'd next try using Mailbox > Rebuild on the problematic mailbox(es).

Clarification: When I said "copy the appropriate folder for the account to the Desktop," I meant the whole account folder, not just your Friends And Family folder.

OK..I can do that..but t my other question, should I *not* have made nested mail folders?

Or is this perfectly OK to do?

a

I've got numerous nested mailboxes, many going three or four deep, and I've never had any issues. If there is a reason they should be avoided, I've never heard it.

OK..good to know.

thank you!

a

Backed up mail, tried both Synchronize and Rebuild and no change..

Anything else I can do? Just ain't my year for email...

a

Seriously. A new year starts soon, and I hope a change in your email good fortune comes with it.

Have you looked for whether Thunderbird has a similar Synchronize option. I don't have it installed, but that sounds like something that would be under the Tools menu, but it could be elsewhere, too.

well that's sure worth a try..I'll let you know!

thanks also for the well wishes...

a

Doesn't appear to have it...there are things online discussing synchronizing and T-bird, but it doesn't have an actual user-initiatable synchronize command as Mail. app does.

seeing more issues on the Lion side...not all my mail is showing up, nor can be found, like this thread from today.

I don't know if it's my side or my host side anymore..

waaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!



jk


a

In Lion, messages are threaded, so a number of related messages will show as one listing in a mailbox. For a simple test you can enter the following into Spotlight:

If using the Search field in the Mail toolbar, try

Note that there is a narrow, horizontal listing of mailboxes (considered Favorites) just below the Mail toolbar. After performing that search you may need to select All so the search is performed in all mailboxes.

Also, as an additional step, open the Mail Preferences then go to Accounts and select your account which is giving issues. Over on the right, select Advanced, then be certain that the setting for Include When Automatically Checking is enabled and that the pop-up menu for keeping message copies is set to All Messages And Their Attachments.

Over in the Mailbox Behaviors tab, have everything checked (well, do whatever you want with Notes), and set all the pop-up menus to Never.

just talked to my host...again...

again they say they have no clue...but they did wonder if there's a "Hidden setting" in the Mail.app program that governs setting up folders and nested folders in Mail.

Since I don't know everything, I wanted to ask about that here before I scoff..


"Hidden setting?"


a

Go ahead and scoff. All your options are under the menus or in Mail Preferences.

OK..good to know..thanks... I have met few entities that sandbag as much as those people..the time I've spent trying to get help from them and getting none, they could have saved time by simply helping me.

brace yourselves for the scoffing!


;-)


a

well until Mail.app handles my mail properly in Lion, I'm stuck with either Snow Leopard Mail, or Thunderbird (maybe) in Lion.

My mail is so hosed up right now I'm tempted to scrape it all clean and start all the way from 0

a

could he maybe be hinting at some command or setting you'd use the Terminal to adjust?

a

Doubtful. I've never heard of Terminal commands being necessary for proper Mail usage. Combine that with low-level tech support people typically not knowing of such things and I'm really skeptical.


Assuming you're correct that 10.6 Mail does correctly have all your messages, I wonder if using the Synchronize and the Rebuild options under Snow Leopard would change what appears under 10.7. If you aren't at wits end and go to do that, I would first do the Rebuild then the Synchronize before jumping back to Lion to check/hope/pray for success.

I whizzed past my wits' end with this in September! heh!

I can do another rebuild/synchronize, log out of Snow, log in to Lion and see.

thank you!

a

I followed your advised procedure. No change in Lion Mail.app

And thunderbird apparently can't see all my email in the right spots, although numerically, the email counts match the web mail.

no clue what it all means

a

As if you haven't dealt with enough, here are a couple more random things. Can you log in to your email via the web? If so, what's it show there? That, as much as anything, should represent what is "correct," even if you consider Snow Leopard Mail to be the definitive accounting. Also, I see on MacUpdate that a new version of Thunderbird is out now. Hard to say from the list of what's new if it will be of help to you, but those feature lists aren't usually exhaustive either.

I've been using web mail as a comparison for months now. webmail doesn't show the childs folders either, but in a folder config page it shows the childs in a box with a button underneath saying "Subscribe."

Don't know why they aren't auto mactially made workable soon as they're created. Bluehost is worthless getting support. might as well read tea leaves.

What I need fixed is so mind-bendingly basic and endemic to the very concept of email itself I just don't see what could be the big deal here.

I'm in the process of shopping for a new host. If that cures it, then I blame Bluehost fully. If not...

falls back on the ware makers.

don't know if theres anything I could have done in my set up to confound accurate emaiil reading in Lion.

thanks for the t-bird info..I'll try that.

a

new version of t-bird made no difference.

problems persist.

thank you!

a

If I were you, I'd treat what you see in webmail as gospel since IMAP mail is about the server representing what you have and email clients merely being a conduit to your messages. Unfortunately, I've never worked with the options Bluehost provides so I can't offer any direct suggestions, but I would think your best bet would be trying different configuration options provided by that service.

OK..but since bluehost won't help me, what are those other options I might try?

Bluehost says all my settings are fine and won't say anything else. won't even offer ideas...

I'm doing some searches now to try to compensate for my lack of familiarity with Bluehost, but one thing I'd try is the Subscribe option you mentioned earlier.

In Mail > Preferences > Accounts > Advanced, is your IMAP Path Prefix set to INBOX (yes, all caps)?

I should have added that after you make a settings change somewhere (whether on the Bluehost side or in Mail), you'll want to use the Synchronize command in Mail in order to see if the change has the desired effect.

From something I read elsewhere, check your webmail for any potential rules/filters. If there are any configured on the web, these will impact how messages are filtered before going to email clients.

yes...all caps

I have no mail rules on webmail...rules aren't even offered with this web mail

My understanding is that Bluehost calls them Filters. (No, I don't think you're an idiot, just trying/checking anything I can think of. I'm almost tempted to sign up with Bluehost just so I can have an account to play with for researching this issue. Translation: If I'm frustrated by this, I can't imagine what you've been going through.)

I wouldn't think it would matter, but we're trying everything here: Is Mail set to use SSL for incoming and outgoing messages? If yes, your port numbers should be

Incoming: 993
Outgoing: 465

If you're not using SSL, port numbers should be

Incoming: 143
Outgoing: 26

Now, if you're set correctly with those, I would try reversing your setup. That is, if you're using SSL, I'd disable it, or vice versa.

OK..well, I am looking through out the web mail app (I'm using Squirrel) to see if there are any rules/filters or anything named like it might do that function.

subscribing those nested folders did make them appear in both web mail and thunderbird

That's a good sign. Hopefully they'll also show up in Lion Mail. The Synchronize command can be helpful, but changes should self-propogate within a few minutes on their own. I've also found quitting/relaunching Mail can induce updates.

according to BH, the ssl config should be 993 in, 46 out...that's what they have on their own site, confirmed by a tech guy


wait...this is what it says..got it wrong...can I change it in Mail once set up? I don't see a place to get outgoing; only incoming.. rats!



Manual Settings


Incoming Mail Server: mail.coffeeonmars.com IMAP: port 143, POP: port 110
Incoming Mail Server: (SSL): box516.bluehost.com IMAP: port 993, POP: port 995
Outgoing Mail Server: mail.coffeeonmars.com (server requires authentication) port 26
Outgoing Mail Server: (SSL): box516.bluehost.com (server requires authentication) port 465
Supported Incoming Mail Protocols: POP3, POP3S (SSL/TLS), IMAP, IMAPS (SSL/TLS)
Supported Outgoing Mail Protocols: SMTP, SMTPS (SSL/TLS)

I'll check Lion mail and t-bird 9 in lion.

Lion mail was correctly showing those nested folders all along; it's the mail counts where Lion mail is off.

checking now...

I have no filters set up

To change the outgoing port number in Mail, do Preferences > Accounts, then select the Account Information tab. Select the Outgoing Mail Server pop-up menu, then choose Edit SMTP Server List. Select the server in question, then click Advanced, and in there you'll be able to change the port number.

OK..did that..thank you!

off to Lion to do the same

OK..Now in Lion.

Mail.app still gets the mail counts wrong. Thunderbird gets the right. I've made sure that both have the right port numbers and other settings. I've synchronized and rebuilt Lion Mail.

So..2 problems here...

1. getting some nested folders to appear in both Web Mail and T-Bird...folders I created in OS X Mail, and

2. getting Lion to display accurate email counts or numbers. It's off by less than previously (was off by hundreds in some cases, now tens) but it's still off.

thank you for reading and hanging in there with me.

what a snarly ball of kite string this is!

a

Problem 1: Those (new?) folders not showing up in Thunderbird or in webmail may just be a reflection of a lag, so they may appear shortly.

Problem 2: Lion Mail is still off for you. If I were in your shoes, I'd delete the account setup in Lion Mail and try creating it anew. That's your choice, though.

Problem 1: I got the nested folders to show up by hitting "subscribe" on those folder in webmail..in the folders pane. No clue why they were not subscribed.

Problem 2: OK...this will make possibly the 10th time I've tosses Mail accounts in Lion and set them up again. Is there anything I ought to make sure I do this time around?

Thankyou!

a

There's nothing I know of that you should do when re-(re-re-re-re-re-re-re)setting up the account, but it may be of help for you to take screen shots (simply use Command-Shift-3) of all your current Preferences > Accounts settings so you can know you've re-configured everything correctly.

also noticing that Thunderbird doesn't appear to have rules or filters of however you want to say the makings of emails sort themselves into designated folders upon arrival.

I must have really ticked off the computer gods...

scratch that...found em...

From what I understand about Thunderbird, look in the Tools menu and there should be an option for Message Filters. That information presumably comes from a previous release, but I'll hope it's still accurate.

Edit: Missed you noting you'd found them.

there are...thank you...

and thanks for the taking screen grabs idea, too...will do that.

Just tossed Mail.app's account, mail, settings and re-set it up.

Same result as before. Lion Mail gets the email count wrong.

At least it's consistent in that..

Here's another thing you might try if you feel like (yet again) doing more.

• In Thunderbird, create a new mailbox in your IMAP account (I'll use the name Temp for reference) by going to File > New > Folder and letting it be created as a subfolder of your IMAP account inbox.
• Still in Thunderbird, select one of the mailboxes that has the correct count but doesn't in 10.7 Mail (I'll use the name Friends for reference).
• Select all of the messages in Friends (Command-A).
• Drag them to the new Temp Folder while holding down the Option key and you should get the green + icon next to your cursor indicating the selection will be copied.

By doing this, you should now have a mailbox called Temp which is simply a duplicate of the mailbox Friends. Head over to Mail. Is the Temp folder there with the correct count? I just tested this on my end and it worked, so I'm hoping it does for you. If so, it may be a solution to getting everything as it should be in Lion Mail.

NaOH..that sounds like a worthy experiment..I'll try it.

Just for your own reference, when I say it worked on my end, I mean it just worked. I didn't use the Synchronize or Rebuild commands. I had both Mail and Thunderbird open. I made the duplicate folder in Thunderbird then switched over to Mail. Once Mail did a check for new messages, the duplicate folder was in place.

ok..just did it and mail got it wrong again.

BUT..and this has been characteristic of the whole problem...Mail "knows" how many messages there should be!

In the little activity window it says "incoming...283 of 550"

550 happens to be the correct number. Yet Lion Mail only shows 527!


used to be off by literally hundreds...I think once it was off by nearly 1000 emails for that folder.

thanks!

I'm going to be annoyed if this works because I'll feel like I should have thought of it sooner. Download the stable version of Onyx for Lion. Quit Mail and launch Onyx. Enter your administrator password, then go to the Maintenance tab and select the Rebuild sub-tab. Uncheck everything but the option for Mail Envelope Index, then press the Execute button.

Once Onyx is done, quit it and open Mail. Better?

well...good news: you don't have to be annoyed.

took a long time for Mail to synch after that procedure in Onyx, but the mail count remains the same/wrong number.

worth doing it, though...for sure...


thank you!

The fact that you've maintained some sense of humor through all this is impressive. Select one of those screwy Mail mailboxes and try another Rebuild. I'm not optimistic, but we've little to lose.

I appreciate the praise. Believe me, I have cussed the air blue over computer issues in my day...I guess I'm realizing it doesn't help. Trying to be an open channel to solutions, and..plus...at least I have T-bird as a fall back...it isn't as elegant as OS X mail, but it works.

Will try to rebuild one of the Mail mailboxes...

a

says "caching XXX of 550" but ultimately, the count is the same...

it seems promising that Lion Mail "knows" what the right number of emails is. Dunno if it isn't actually "grabbing" them, or if Bluehost isn't "giving" them...

can't thank you enough for all of the worthy suggestions to try...never know which one will do the trick..

almost like when you lose your keys..checking even places you think you already checked often produces the keys...

Right, Mail seems to understand how many messages should be within a given mailbox, but for whatever reason it can't yield the correct number. My next thought was to try exporting a folder from Thunderbird and then importing that into Mail. Looking at the instructions for that may give us a clue as to why you're having this issue (emphasis mine):

If I'm reading that second bullet point correctly—no guarantees on that—it might explain why Lion Mail isn't yielding the proper message count for you even though when the downloading begins Mail "sees" the correct number of messages. Maybe Lion Mail has a bug which screws up how some message content is read, and that's causing this hiccup. Or maybe you didn't properly sacrifice a chicken during the last solstice.

If you want to try the technique linked above for exporting from Thunderbird and importing it into Mail, you'll have to follow the instructions using 10.6 because the Eudora Mailbox Cleaner software can't run under 10.7 due to it needing Rosetta. Personally, I'd try it with the smallest of the messed-up folders. If that one works, then you can try others.

Hmmm...well, I have kinda slacked off on my making of animal sacrifices, unless you count eating steaks and burgers...

I'll give the method a twirl...see how it goes..

thank you!

a

Tried it..result: same, incorrect number of emails.

thank you!

a

This is a similar tactic to the last one:

1. In Snow Leopard Mail, select one of the mailboxes that's giving you problems in 10.7.
2. Use the Mailbox menu to select Export.
3. Save (or move) the file(s) it creates to /Users/Shared
4. Log in to 10.7 then use its Mail to try using File > Import Mailboxes.

I'm not optimistic that will work, but I'm low on suggestions and I have no sacrificial animals available to me.

I'm good to try this, but in snow mail there's no export choice under mailbox or other menus...shud I pick archive?

Sorry, I should have said Archive and was thinking in terms of 10.7 menu names.

's ok, bro...I did the archive from Snow Leopard Mail, imported into Lion mail.

Still the same, incorrect mail count.

I thank you for that idea, too!

a

Okay, this next step is guaranteed to solve nothing. What it will tell us is whether the Lion file system has all of the messages and, if so, if the issue is simply how Mail is reading them. I'll admit right now that no matter what the answer, I'm not certain what the next step would be, but I figure this could give us some potentially helpful information.

Let's say you have a mailbox called Stuff with no sub-mailboxes. You know from Thunderbird it should have 20 messages, but Lion Mail only shows 15.

1. In the Finder, click on the Go menu, then press Option and select Library.
2. Open the Mail folder, then the V2 folder, then the folder for the account. It will say something like IMAP-Acme@MailIsDrivingMeNuts.com.
3. Find the folder for Stuff.mbox and open it.
4. You'll see a folder with a name consisting of letters and numbers. Open it.
5. Now there is a Data folder. Use the Search field at the top of the window (not the one at the top of the screen) and enter this exact text:
   
   Code:

   ---

   kind:mail

   ---

6. In the narrow area just below the Search field, select Data (instead of This Mac or Shared, etc.).

Using my example from the beginning, does the count match what Mail says (15) or what we want Mail to say (20)?

Another test I should have thought of sooner: In Lion, create a brand-new user account and try setting up the account in Mail. If necessary, copy those screen shots of your Preferences to /Users/Shared beforehand to help you in the new user account. This will at leats tell us if the issue is Lion or (somehow) your usual user account.

Edit: Seems more logical to take this step and, if no different, then try the idea outlined in my previous post.

I have done that several times including yesterday.

thank you!

a

your procedure produces a number of 926 items. looking in Mail is easy cuz I only have the 1 account set up at the moment. Mail says there are 897.

Thunderbird for the very same account - and reading at the "Inbox" level in both apps...thunderbird says it's 897

now, the way I have some of my rules is that, even if I get a mail into MailA@domain.com, I have the rules put those emails into mail folders under other email addresses.

The reason for this is, say I have a folder for "Mac Trubble." I might get emails on my various email address but all dealing with mac problems. for ease of finding, I have the 1 folder.

after this experiment, I can't tell if t-bird is right or not..I guess I can go to the web mail and consult it?

did this provide us with the potentially helpful information?

one other tidbit I may have mentioned...I had a friend with the same computer as me (09 MPRo) and Lion get into one of my accounts using all my information.

He got the same result I do: Lion Mail has the wrong count, and he got the same wrong numbers as I did. Sorta proves it's not my machine, and that I'm not in a wormhole here..

a

Okay, so at least we know the Mac file system has the messages. Why Mail doesn't see the same number of messages is another issue.

I do the same, so this makes sense to me and my own setup indicates this shouldn't be a cause of the problem.

May as well check the web. Not sure what we'll do no matter what you see there, but I can't see how that information could hurt us.

I was going to ask if doing this was available to you, so it's good to hear you already took this step.

All in all, I'm at a loss for what to try next. Certainly, if I think of anything else I'll share it. Dare I ask: Are you anywhere near an Apple Store where you could meet with a Genius? I've always had good experiences when I've met with them, though I realize who you get helping you can be a little bit of a crapshoot. Sorry if you mentioned meeting with a Genius in another thread and I've forgotten.

I've received some of the most rude treatment in life from Apple "Geniuses."

They're more aptly called Apple Out Of Control Ego-monsters. I won't bore you, but the experiences have been like getting backhanded, metaphorically. More than once, the "Genius" has been dead wrong. And getting my rig to the Apple store is a huge PITA.

You, NaOH, and others have gone far beyond the call of helping fellow Mac users with these ideas.

Here is where it sits with apple....I've tried many hours' worth of exhaustive experiments and procedures with no luck.

The apple engineers are said to be looking into it but as I appear to be the only Lion user with this exact problem, it likely isn't high up on their list.

I've either told them all I've told you, or they've seen it with their own eyeballs, in the form of screen grabs, or that Apple assistant thing they do where they can view your screen.

I'm not going to drop the issue, but I am going to proceed using T-bird and hope that something changes...10.7.3 whenever it arrives, new host, if I switch..I can do little tests here and there but I've poured plenty of time and energy into that already and I just need to be in a stable OS environment so that I can get some work done.

I will try to report back if there are any developments..especially if they solve this snarky issue.

cheers!

a