The macosxhints Forums

The macosxhints Forums (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/index.php)
-   The Coat Room (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Basic particle physics questions (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/showthread.php?t=134560)

benwiggy 11-07-2011 12:16 PM

One of the problems with quantum physics is that we are at the edge of useful analogy.
Most of the concepts that we are familiar with break down, so trying to say "a photon is like a wave" (sometimes) is uncomfortable at best. Even ideas like time and mass start to fall to bits in terms that we find it comfortable to relate to.

NovaScotian 11-07-2011 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fracai (Post 647645)
OK, I think it's the definition of "everywhere". It certainly doesn't mean that a light that I shine in front of me is going to throw photons behind me, unless they "bounce" there. A single photon may appear to go through both slits, but that doesn't mean it's literally everywhere. Anyway, that was my disagreement with the wording.

As for the conclusion, I don't think it's entirely accurate to state that the photon actually went through both slits, just that the photon as a wave did so. Or, as the article states:
It's a bit like the wave-like features of the photon go through both slits, but the particle features go through one slite, as determined by the interaction of the wave with the slits.

Remember that evidence that the photon (as a wave) transited both slits is that the appropriate interference pattern shows. Think about how that works for a particle.

SirDice 11-08-2011 02:41 AM

I have to admit it's been 20 years since I last took atomic and nuclear physics classes. Can't exactly remember where I picked it up.

This seems to explain it relatively simple but it also includes some links to more detailed descriptions.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...5/phy05010.htm

This one's related to the single photon double slit experiment: Google cache

acme.mail.order 11-08-2011 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647741)
This one's related to the single photon double slit experiment: Google cache

There is no way a high school science project using a child-safe laser, a piece of Kodak film and some glass filters is going to come anywhere close to a single-photon event. There will be stray photons bouncing around the room from some source or another.

I would also strongly doubt the accuracy of $erious $cience claiming a single-photon event. Prove that there were no other particles* involved. Explain your proof to Werner Heisenberg. If he agrees, I'm convinced.

* other photons, related bosons, quarks, leptons, hadrons, neutrinos (good luck with that one) or any other subatomic flotsam that could jigger the results.

SirDice 11-08-2011 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acme.mail.order (Post 647770)
Explain your proof to Werner Heisenberg. If he agrees, I'm convinced.

He's been dead for almost 50 years.

acme.mail.order 11-08-2011 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647780)
He's been dead for almost 50 35 years.

I know.

fracai 11-08-2011 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acme.mail.order (Post 647770)
I would also strongly doubt the accuracy of $erious $cience claiming a single-photon event. Prove that there were no other particles* involved. Explain your proof to Werner Heisenberg. If he agrees, I'm convinced.

OK, but the rest of the scientific community is satisifed by multiple, independently replicated peer reviewed studies, experiments, and research papers. Heisenberg himself could disagree with the result and it still be accepted as valid. Einstein, for example, didn't like the implications of Quantum Mechanics, but he still worked on research and experiments that would ultimately support it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by NovaScotian (Post 647655)
Remember that evidence that the photon (as a wave) transited both slits is that the appropriate interference pattern shows. Think about how that works for a particle.

benwiggy's earlier comment is perfect here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwiggy (Post 647650)
One of the problems with quantum physics is that we are at the edge of useful analogy.
Most of the concepts that we are familiar with break down, so trying to say "a photon is like a wave" (sometimes) is uncomfortable at best. Even ideas like time and mass start to fall to bits in terms that we find it comfortable to relate to.

Photons / electrons / etc. at this level of observation exhibit particle and wave characteristics. This may lend itself to describing these wave characteristics as the particle being in multiple places at the same time, but that's at best a great simplification.

A quote attributed to Feynman sums this up pretty well, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." Or, "'It is safe to say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

NovaScotian 11-08-2011 10:37 AM

This is not uncommon in Physics. As a Mechanical Engineer, I studied Fluid Mechanics and Heat Transfer. One of the concepts there for explaining the growth of boundary layers on solid surfaces immersed in flowing fluids was Ludwig Prandl's boundary layer theory based on a concept called mixing length. Works beautifully as a predictive tool. Unfortunately, with the advent of modern computational fluid mechanics and much finer measurements than Prandl could make, it's been proven wrong. Still works, though.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site design © IDG Consumer & SMB; individuals retain copyright of their postings
but consent to the possible use of their material in other areas of IDG Consumer & SMB.