The macosxhints Forums

The macosxhints Forums (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/index.php)
-   The Coat Room (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Basic particle physics questions (http://hintsforums.macworld.com/showthread.php?t=134560)

Hal Itosis 11-02-2011 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaptagat (Post 646858)
OK thanks for the replies about bouncing photons but why don't they go straight through things like neutrinos?

aren't photons "massless"?

chabig 11-02-2011 07:09 PM

I think photons have mass, but even if they didn't they have other properties that differ from Neutrinos.

Hal Itosis 11-03-2011 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chabig (Post 646977)
I think photons have mass, but even if they didn't they have other properties that differ from Neutrinos.

Can you link to a page which supports that? From what i can tell, they have something conceptual called a 'rest mass'... but i'm unsure if a wavicle traveling at (or near) lightspeed can be convinced to come to a rest very easily (or for very long).

Anyway, it seems many quantum schools of thought need parallel universes and other abstract models to "explain" some of this stuff. And until string theory solves the mystery of gravity, then we're all just guessing. ;)

[think i hear crarko biting his tongue. :) ]

chabig 11-03-2011 02:00 AM

Maybe they don't have mass. I really don't know. But how would a solar sail work if they don't?

acme.mail.order 11-03-2011 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis (Post 647012)
... i'm unsure if a wavicle traveling at (or near) lightspeed can be convinced to come to a rest very easily (or for very long).

Black piece of paper brings a photon to a halt pretty quick and converts it into something else. Acceleration is something like 10^24 gravities - good thing it's got no mass.

acme.mail.order 11-03-2011 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chabig (Post 647013)
Maybe they don't have mass. I really don't know. But how would a solar sail work if they don't?

Any star gives off *plenty* of pretty much any particle you can think of.

SirDice 11-03-2011 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chabig (Post 646952)

Read the rest of the article. Especially the "Mechanics" bit.

Quote:

In the classical electrodynamics, light is considered as electromagnetic wave, which is governed by the Maxwell Equations. Light waves incident on a material induce small oscillations of polarisation in the individual atoms (or oscillation of electrons, in metals), causing each particle to radiate a small secondary wave (in all directions, like a dipole antenna). All these waves add up to give specular reflection and refraction, according to the Huygens-Fresnel principle.

SirDice 11-03-2011 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis (Post 647012)
Can you link to a page which supports that? From what i can tell, they have something conceptual called a 'rest mass'... but i'm unsure if a wavicle traveling at (or near) lightspeed can be convinced to come to a rest very easily (or for very long).

Photons have no rest mass.

Hal Itosis 11-03-2011 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647029)
Photons have no rest mass.

If you say so. ;)

Hal Itosis 11-03-2011 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acme.mail.order (Post 647015)
Black piece of paper brings a photon to a halt pretty quick and converts it into something else. Acceleration is something like 10^24 gravities - good thing it's got no mass.

Good thing black paper lets photons rest... they must be really tired from moving so fast all of [?] the time. ;)

kaptagat 11-03-2011 01:00 PM

Read a strange thing about photons recently. If a photon leaves a galaxy a million light years away, then it will reach us in a million years. But from the photon's perspective, it arrived here instantly. Does this mean that all photons are everywhere at the same time?

fracai 11-03-2011 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaptagat (Post 647084)
Read a strange thing about photons recently. If a photon leaves a galaxy a million light years away, then it will reach us in a million years. But from the photon's perspective, it arrived here instantly. Does this mean that all photons are everywhere at the same time?

Not really. It's one of the problems of trying to apply non-relativistic reference frames to relativistic speeds. Time slows down for the reference frame that is moving at relativistic speeds (near the speed of light), but it's still constrained within the time of external frames.

Imagine you and a friend are a great distance away from each other holding flashlights. You turn yours on and then off. When your friend sees yours go off, they turn theirs on and then back off. From the perspective of the light from each flashlight the journey is instantaneous, but clearly the light from the two sources was not travelling simultaneously.

SirDice 11-04-2011 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaptagat (Post 647084)
Read a strange thing about photons recently. If a photon leaves a galaxy a million light years away, then it will reach us in a million years. But from the photon's perspective, it arrived here instantly. Does this mean that all photons are everywhere at the same time?

That is the idea currently.

It stems from the famous double-slit experiment. The one that creates the interference patterns. Those patterns are easily explained but somebody had the bright idea to fire off one(1) photon at a time. This still produces the interference pattern. That's only possible if the single photon moves through both slits at the same time. However, if you start counting the photons that pass through one of the slits the interference pattern disappears. The conclusion is that the photon is everywhere at the same time unless you look at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-...dual_particles

SirDice 11-04-2011 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis (Post 647075)
If you say so. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Quote:

The effects of this force are easily observable at both the microscopic and macroscopic level, because the photon has no rest mass; this allows for interactions at long distances.

NovaScotian 11-04-2011 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647152)
That is the idea currently.

It stems from the famous double-slit experiment. The one that creates the interference patterns. Those patterns are easily explained but somebody had the bright idea to fire off one(1) photon at a time. This still produces the interference pattern. That's only possible if the single photon moves through both slits at the same time. However, if you start counting the photons that pass through one of the slits the interference pattern disappears. The conclusion is that the photon is everywhere at the same time unless you look at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-...dual_particles

From Wikipedia: In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states a fundamental limit on the accuracy with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle, such as position and momentum, cannot be simultaneously known. In other words, the more precisely one property is measured, the less precisely the other can be controlled, determined, or known.

Hal Itosis 11-04-2011 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647155)

So then, have we actually brought a photon to "rest" and measured its mass, :) or is this merely all conceptual? (as i initially stated)


What is the mass of a photon?
Quote:


In classical electromagnetic theory, light turns out to have energy E and momentum p, and these happen to be related by E = pc. Quantum mechanics introduces the idea that light can be viewed as a collection of "particles": photons. Even though these photons cannot be brought to rest, and so the idea of rest mass doesn't really apply to them, we can certainly bring these "particles" of light into the fold of equation (1) by just considering them to have no rest mass. That way, equation (1) gives the correct expression for light, E = pc, and no harm has been done. Equation (1) is now able to be applied to particles of matter and "particles" of light. It can now be used as a fully general equation, and that makes it very useful.

Is there any experimental evidence that the photon has zero rest mass?

Alternative theories of the photon include a term that behaves like a mass, and this gives rise to the very advanced idea of a "massive photon". If the rest mass of the photon were non-zero, the theory of quantum electrodynamics would be "in trouble" primarily through loss of gauge invariance, which would make it non-renormalisable; also, charge conservation would no longer be absolutely guaranteed, as it is if photons have zero rest mass. But regardless of what any theory might predict, it is still necessary to check this prediction by doing an experiment.

It is almost certainly impossible to do any experiment that would establish the photon rest mass to be exactly zero. The best we can hope to do is place limits on it. A non-zero rest mass would introduce a small damping factor in the inverse square Coulomb law of electrostatic forces. That means the electrostatic force would be weaker over very large distances.

Likewise, the behavior of static magnetic fields would be modified. An upper limit to the photon mass can be inferred through satellite measurements of planetary magnetic fields. The Charge Composition Explorer spacecraft was used to derive an upper limit of 6 × 10−16 eV with high certainty. This was slightly improved in 1998 by Roderic Lakes in a laboratory experiment that looked for anomalous forces on a Cavendish balance. The new limit is 7 × 10−17 eV. Studies of galactic magnetic fields suggest a much better limit of less than 3 × 10−27 eV, but there is some doubt about the validity of this method.


We use terms like 'mass' and 'gravity' every single day, but that doesn't mean we have full understanding of every aspect of their nature. We use math and models to represent our (human) perception of such phenomena. So, eventually, we all wind up on this page...
Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics
Even though the word photon doen not appear on the that page, it gives us an idea of how much of this is still open to interpretation.

fracai 11-04-2011 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647152)
The conclusion is that the photon is everywhere at the same time unless you look at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-...dual_particles

My reading of that section conveys that it's not that "the photon is everywhere at once unless you look at it", but that "light (and electrons, etc.) can behave as either particles or waves, but not both at the same".

Maybe the meaning of "everywhere at the same time" could use some clarification. As used by kaptagat, SirDice, and myself; do we all mean the same thing?

SirDice 11-06-2011 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fracai (Post 647231)
My reading of that section conveys that it's not that "the photon is everywhere at once unless you look at it", but that "light (and electrons, etc.) can behave as either particles or waves, but not both at the same".

Yes, that's correct. With the single photon double slit experiment the only way an interference pattern would show is when a single photon interferes with itself. And the only way it could do that is if it would go though both slits at the same time. Hence the conclusion the photon is everywhere at the same time.

MeDicmew 11-07-2011 12:00 AM

Basic particle physics questions
 
Uhm...I dont understand the question. In...before hitting is impossible in all cases.

Though, come to think of it, if the particle gives the electron cloud the necessary amount of energy to trigger K-capture which usually gives out energy, and doesnt require it, the particle would not be in the core, but rather an neutron being changed into a proton.

fracai 11-07-2011 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDice (Post 647469)
Yes, that's correct. With the single photon double slit experiment the only way an interference pattern would show is when a single photon interferes with itself. And the only way it could do that is if it would go though both slits at the same time. Hence the conclusion the photon is everywhere at the same time.

OK, I think it's the definition of "everywhere". It certainly doesn't mean that a light that I shine in front of me is going to throw photons behind me, unless they "bounce" there. A single photon may appear to go through both slits, but that doesn't mean it's literally everywhere. Anyway, that was my disagreement with the wording.

As for the conclusion, I don't think it's entirely accurate to state that the photon actually went through both slits, just that the photon as a wave did so. Or, as the article states:
Quote:

The appearance of interference built up from individual photons could be explained by understanding that a single photon has its own wavefront that passes through both slits, and that the single photon will show up on the detector screen according to the net probability values resulting from the co-incidence of the two probability waves coming by way of the two slits.
It's a bit like the wave-like features of the photon go through both slits, but the particle features go through one slite, as determined by the interaction of the wave with the slits.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site design © IDG Consumer & SMB; individuals retain copyright of their postings
but consent to the possible use of their material in other areas of IDG Consumer & SMB.